Date   

Re: Photo: StLB&M Gondola 11050

O Fenton Wells
 

Looking good Gerry, well done 
Fenton 


On Nov 24, 2020, at 5:26 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

Jerry 

You have made a great job of the GOM.

Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 24 Nov 2020, at 02:13, jerryglow2 <jerryglow@...> wrote:

Sunshine made a minikit to convert their 42ft car. It consisted  of an extra side to splice the sides longer and new ends. No underbody or decals. My model

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002172809/http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html


Re: K4 Decals

Paul Doggett
 

Chuck 

That’s a really nice model I like the weathering and reverse Hutchins ends.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 23 Nov 2020, at 23:42, Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:

I just finished working on a Sunshine NC&StL 36' rebuilt boxcar.  When decaling the yellow stripes, the Sunshine decals fell apart.  I decided to order the K4 decals for the 40' NC&StL boxcar to try to use the yellow stripes on the Sunshine model.  This was my first experience with K4 and I found them easy to use and they did a nice job covering the Youngstown doors.  I used the kit's lettering to finish the car. 

I have not seen much discussion of the K4 decals.  Have others used them and what has been your experience?

Thanks

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM

Attachments:


Re: Photo: StLB&M Gondola 11050

Paul Doggett
 

Jerry 

You have made a great job of the GOM.

Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 24 Nov 2020, at 02:13, jerryglow2 <jerryglow@...> wrote:

Sunshine made a minikit to convert their 42ft car. It consisted  of an extra side to splice the sides longer and new ends. No underbody or decals. My model

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002172809/http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Jack Mullen
 

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 02:47 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
They pulled a higher vacuum with a vacuum truck. Those are usually used for sucking out clogged sewer pipes and the like and obviously exceed “full” vacuum (14.5 psig). I don’t know HOW it works, tho.
I hope this is meant as a joke that's too subtle for me to get. There isn't any vacuum that exceeds full vacuum, which is 0 psia. No matter how you pump, you don't get less than nothing, because you can't remove more than everything.

Jack Mullen


Re: Looking for Sunshine Models Kit #24.24 Swift 37' Reefer

jerryglow2
 

You did not include an email address  Contact me at jerryglow at comcast dot net


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

mvlandsw
 

At least the collapsed car with a frame could be moved to a scrapper. The frameless ones would have to be cut up on site.
Mark Vinski


Re: Photo: StLB&M Gondola 11050

jerryglow2
 

Sunshine made a minikit to convert their 42ft car. It consisted  of an extra side to splice the sides longer and new ends. No underbody or decals. My model

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002172809/http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html


Re: K4 Decals

Dan Sweeney Jr
 

Nice looking model!  Wondering how many other builders ran the retainer pipe straight down astride the end ladder.  Sure would make it easier to model.


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Charles Peck
 

Now if you were to have a tank car built to the minimum required standards, you 
might be tempted to fill it full of some heavy but free flowing liquid. Something with a 
suitably low viscosity, like clipper oil.
And then, if you were to open a drain valve at the bottom of the tank, some of that 
liquid would drain out.  BUT!  What if in doing so, it sucked in some bubbles of air,
like my ketchup bottle sometimes does?  Then more such liquid could pour out the
 bottom.  And you would have a mess between the rails that your track cleaning 
car probably wouldn't be able to clean up.
BUT! If you put a hose on that drain, and ran a long hose down into a deep hole, 
like maybe the Grand Canyon,  and put a check valve on it so the bubbles couldn't 
get back up the hose, then you could maybe get yourself a mess of scrap iron out of it.
Better, if you used a sharp file to create some stress points in vulnerable places, 
you could maybe use less hose. 
Presto!  You have demonstrated why most model RR tank cars are plastic and not steel.
Chuck Peck (enjoying some wine and a few laughs)

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:00 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
There are formulas in ASME Section VIII of the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code that will allow you to calculate, or at least read off a set of curves, the expected maximum external pressure a steel fabricated vessel (say, a tank car) can withstand without collapsing.  Suffice it to say that the maximum possible external pressure a vessel in free air can see is 14.7 psi absolute (psia).  This would be less, say, if you assume this tank car is on Tennessee Pass or somewhere like that.

Some of the factors in the calculation are the ratio of the wall thickness to the diameter, and any reinforcement and the distance between reinforcements.  The tank heads count.  

I think the most common way you can get a vessel like a tank car to collapse is to fill it with steam and then close the vents while it's hot.  These guys who sucked a vacuum in one with a vacuum truck were probably doing this demonstration for the purposes of showing what could happen if you didn't have a vent open, and I'd say this is not surprising, that it would collapse at -7 psig or so (about 7 or so psia).  Notice that, in the video, they taped all the couplings on their hose to prevent air from leaking inward.  My best guess is that, if you did start to drain a tank car full of oil without opening a vent, a lot of it would run out by gravity but at some point it probably would collapse before it was fully drained.

A riveted 8k or 10 tank during the period of this list could have been slightly stiffer than a modern welded one, but probably not by much.  Or maybe not.

Ron Merrick


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

mopacfirst
 

There are formulas in ASME Section VIII of the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code that will allow you to calculate, or at least read off a set of curves, the expected maximum external pressure a steel fabricated vessel (say, a tank car) can withstand without collapsing.  Suffice it to say that the maximum possible external pressure a vessel in free air can see is 14.7 psi absolute (psia).  This would be less, say, if you assume this tank car is on Tennessee Pass or somewhere like that.

Some of the factors in the calculation are the ratio of the wall thickness to the diameter, and any reinforcement and the distance between reinforcements.  The tank heads count.  

I think the most common way you can get a vessel like a tank car to collapse is to fill it with steam and then close the vents while it's hot.  These guys who sucked a vacuum in one with a vacuum truck were probably doing this demonstration for the purposes of showing what could happen if you didn't have a vent open, and I'd say this is not surprising, that it would collapse at -7 psig or so (about 7 or so psia).  Notice that, in the video, they taped all the couplings on their hose to prevent air from leaking inward.  My best guess is that, if you did start to drain a tank car full of oil without opening a vent, a lot of it would run out by gravity but at some point it probably would collapse before it was fully drained.

A riveted 8k or 10 tank during the period of this list could have been slightly stiffer than a modern welded one, but probably not by much.  Or maybe not.

Ron Merrick


Re: K4 Decals

Dave Parker
 

There are some 52 individual messages concerning K4 decals in our archives.  Not sure if this qualifies as "much" discussion.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: K4 Decals

O Fenton Wells
 

I use them and they are very good.  
Fenton

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 6:42 PM Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:
I just finished working on a Sunshine NC&StL 36' rebuilt boxcar.  When decaling the yellow stripes, the Sunshine decals fell apart.  I decided to order the K4 decals for the 40' NC&StL boxcar to try to use the yellow stripes on the Sunshine model.  This was my first experience with K4 and I found them easy to use and they did a nice job covering the Youngstown doors.  I used the kit's lettering to finish the car. 

I have not seen much discussion of the K4 decals.  Have others used them and what has been your experience?

Thanks

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


K4 Decals

Chuck Cover
 

I just finished working on a Sunshine NC&StL 36' rebuilt boxcar.  When decaling the yellow stripes, the Sunshine decals fell apart.  I decided to order the K4 decals for the 40' NC&StL boxcar to try to use the yellow stripes on the Sunshine model.  This was my first experience with K4 and I found them easy to use and they did a nice job covering the Youngstown doors.  I used the kit's lettering to finish the car. 

I have not seen much discussion of the K4 decals.  Have others used them and what has been your experience?

Thanks

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Allen Cain
 

Impressive demonstration.

If I am reading the vacuum gauge correctly it reads 15 inches of Mercury which is just over 7 PSI which is not much at all.  But spread over the entire interior service which is a lot of square inches it adds up to a lot of force.

The increase in vacuum pressure is directly related to the increase in "air" volume as the tank is emptied.

So venting a tank car filled with liquid while emptying it from the bottom valve is pretty critical.

Allen Cain


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Rufus Cone
 

The referenced youtube video misinterprets the trucks gauge (see the image at 0:43).  It reads in inches of mercury, not psi. 

With the gauge designed so that atmospheric pressure is set to read zero, a vacuum reads minus 27 inches of mercury.

Rufus Cone
Bozeman, MT


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Charles Peck
 

A vacuum gauge reading minus 27 is not reading pounds per square inch.
It is reading inches of mercury that the vacuum can lift.
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Claus Schlund wrote:

What Ed is trying to say is that normal atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI.
Thus a PERFECT VACUUM would read at -14.7 PSI (note the minus sign).
Therefore, a "vacuum at -27psi" is not possible under any circumstance on earth

They pulled a higher vacuum with a vacuum truck. Those are usually used for sucking out clogged sewer pipes and the like and obviously exceed “full” vacuum (14.5 psig). I don’t know HOW it works, tho.

Tony Thompson




Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Tony Thompson
 

Claus Schlund wrote:

What Ed is trying to say is that normal atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI.
Thus a PERFECT VACUUM would read at -14.7 PSI (note the minus sign).
Therefore, a "vacuum at -27psi" is not possible under any circumstance on earth

They pulled a higher vacuum with a vacuum truck. Those are usually used for sucking out clogged sewer pipes and the like and obviously exceed “full” vacuum (14.5 psig). I don’t know HOW it works, tho.

Tony Thompson




Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Ed and List Members,
 
That was subtle Ed, very subtle...
 
What Ed is trying to say is that normal atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI.
 
Thus a PERFECT VACUUM would read at -14.7 PSI (note the minus sign).
 
Therefore, a "vacuum at -27psi" is not possible under any circumstance on earth
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] HO Tank Car Lid

"...the destructive power of a vacuum at -27psi."

I used to run a three-stage vacuum pump, and I could never get it below approx -15 psi.  Wonder what I was doing wrong.



Ed

Edward Sutorik



On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 01:14 PM, Charles Peck wrote:
Here is a tank car vacuum collapse live.
Chuck Peck


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

spsalso
 

"...the destructive power of a vacuum at -27psi."

I used to run a three-stage vacuum pump, and I could never get it below approx -15 psi.  Wonder what I was doing wrong.



Ed

Edward Sutorik



On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 01:14 PM, Charles Peck wrote:
Here is a tank car vacuum collapse live.
Chuck Peck


Re: HO Tank Car Lid

Allen Cain
 

Exactly!

Allen Cain