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Re: Gondola Load aka WP car aka WP 20551-series aka WP painting standards....

Fred Jansz
 

Garth & Ed and others interested in WP,

Unfortunately I have never found painting & stencilling guides for the 3 series of 1937, 1945 & 1947 built WP 20001-20800 box cars.

However, I posess WP stencil-guides dated 1936 of the WP 14001, 16001 and 19001 cars that mention: black roof & ends. Also have a picture of a new 18417 re-painted that way with a SAC 1-37 date (BLT 6-17). So one could say at least in 1936-1937 WP followed the black ends & roofs fashion.

Which implies that if you have one of the Speedwitch K114 kits of the 1937-built 9'6" box cars, it would need black ends & roof as built.
In fact, this is what I've always thought, looking at the builders photo of WP 20200 that's included in the Speedwitch instructions. Ends painted shiny black! (not car cement).

With the next repaint (if any) these cars would be WP-red all over out of cost-reduction, except trucks & underbody still in black.
But in my scale world one car could easily still have black roof & ends in my modeling year 1950!

It is my opinion the WP 20551-20800 series of 1947 MtVernon-built cars was delivered in WP red all over, except trucks. At least I have never seen a picture of such a car with dark ends or roof.
But yes, the 1951 PS-1 series was delivered with black car cement roofs & ends.

BTW: yes, 1949 was the date 'silver' stencilling was introduced.
However; the 1936 instructions mention 'aluminum' lettering. This I understand is white paint mixed with aluminum particles, so it reflects light. In our 1:87 world this would mean plain white I guess.

best regards, Fred Jansz


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Dave Lawler
 

Thank you Ben. That would certainly make an interesting modeling feature.
Dave Lawler


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Benjamin Hom
 

Dave Lawler asked:
"What was the purpose for the stake pockets(?) on the outside of the side boards?"

To hold stakes for loads taller than the sides of the gon.  These are a common feature of period wood and composite gons.  Here's a builder's photo of a PRR Class GRA with stake pockets:

Some later steel gons had collapsible stake pockets on the inside of the sides.  The Proto 2000 52 ft 6 in gon is an example.


Ben Hom 



Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Lester Breuer
 

Bruce Thank You for the correction on the “car builder’s door”.
Lester Breuer


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Dave Lawler
 

What was the purpose for the stake pockets(?) on the outside of the side boards?
 
Best regards,
Dave Lawler


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hello Bob,

    I've never been a particular fan of the Lackawanna, being more Erie oriented, but cannot thank you enough for providing the photos of
Lackawanna gondola #67198 that you posted seven photos of from the Steamtown collection. This car is so neat it just begs to be modeled.
The fact that 16 of the class were still around in April 1950, as Schuyler has noted, is just the frosting on the cake! Wood sides and a wood
floor and look at the way the side planks are butted together at their ends with the shorter one that is 2nd from the bottom and extending inward
from the end of the car having one bolt at its top into the flange on one side of the rib and the next plank having one bolt through the bottom
into the flange on the other side of the rib to maintain the same pattern where there was no butt joint at the rib and each plank had two bolts.
And look at the Bettendorf T-section trucks that were so popular for many years and the K brake system with the rod from the brake ratchet at
the end of the car being suspended by brackets to reach the brake valve. The mounting of the ratchet gear itself, to clear the drop ends, is quite 
interesting. The deep well underframe is noted and the brake kine coming to the outside of the car would seem proof that there were also drop
doors. And stake pockets on the car sides as well!  Again, what a super interesting car and if the subject car were not enough look at the 
surroundings! How about the Mo. Pac.50 ft. auto car which we have discussed modifying the Roundhouse/Athearn single sheathed Western
Pacific car without the end door, but of similar design, to produce. Its "B" end shows in the 4th photo and the "A" end in the 7th even if little 
else can be seen. Better yet, look at the Grand Trunk early double sheathed end door auto a part of which shows in the 2nd photo and a bit
more in the 3rd. What a shame this car was not documented as well as the subject. Were the Lackawanna gon and other cars not enough 
look at the entire 7th photos! How about that Mack Bull Dog truck that looks to still  have solid tires, not less! And how about that neat, early 
style overhead crane and the boiler it is unloading from the flat car beyond the Lackawanna gon! 

    I can't thank you enough, Bob, for giving us such a great photo presentation. It is easily the best I've seen on the STMFC.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Live Poultry Transportation Company Memohead

Jake Schaible
 

Now we know why one of their poultry cars was named "Mudd".

-J


Live Poultry Transportation Company Memohead

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
With the interest in poultry cars, perhaps this Live Poultry Transportation Company Memohead will be of interest.
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 


Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Paul Doggett
 

Lester

They look really good.

Paul Doggett. England the disUnited Kingdom 😢😢😢


Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Michael Gross
 

Nicely done, Lester, and so appreciate your sharing the construction details!
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Bruce Smith
 

Lester,

Nice work!  One minor correction. While many have called the 3 panel door on the X29 a “CRECo” door, in reality it is not a product of the Chicago Railway Equipment Co and is more correctly called a "car builder's door" or "PRR 3-panel door". There are subtle differences between the PRR “carbuilder’s door” and a CRECo door.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Apr 2, 2019, at 7:41 AM, Lester Breuer <rforailroad@...> wrote:

I have finished two Red Caboose Pennsylvania X29 box cars, 503920 with a Creco door and 504222 with a Youngstown steel door.  The cars have AB brakes located in the correct position as discussed on this site.  If you are interested in viewing, photos and writeup of building and finishing the two PRR X29 Box cars are now on my blog I started to share photos and writeups of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.  If you would like to take a look please do at the following:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer
<D44CFB96-A8A6-4087-9723-0BAB7CBBCB98.jpeg>


Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

O Fenton Wells
 

Lester, those look great, thanks for sharing
Fenton

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:42 AM Lester Breuer <rforailroad@...> wrote:
I have finished two Red Caboose Pennsylvania X29 box cars, 503920 with a Creco door and 504222 with a Youngstown steel door.  The cars have AB brakes located in the correct position as discussed on this site.  If you are interested in viewing, photos and writeup of building and finishing the two PRR X29 Box cars are now on my blog I started to share photos and writeups of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.  If you would like to take a look please do at the following:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Lester Breuer
 

I have finished two Red Caboose Pennsylvania X29 box cars, 503920 with a Creco door and 504222 with a Youngstown steel door.  The cars have AB brakes located in the correct position as discussed on this site.  If you are interested in viewing, photos and writeup of building and finishing the two PRR X29 Box cars are now on my blog I started to share photos and writeups of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.  If you would like to take a look please do at the following:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer


Re: Gondola Load

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Ed,

From my observation, the WP was very parsimonious about repainting older rolling stock, and some boxcars went right into MW service in the 1970s with their original white lettering. Remember, the WP flirted with bankruptcy during their whole long existence (some have said it was an "on-going affair"). Repainting a 1947 car to the 1949 aluminum scheme would have been rare,
though I'm sure it did happen during major repairs. The aluminum scheme was discontinued in mid-1955 after just six years (50' single-door PS-1s 36001-36025 delivered in June 1955 where probably the last purchased with aluminum lettering). Repainting the 1947 cars in the 1955-1962 yellow "Feather River Route" lettering without a herald would have been more likely.

The switch to aluminum lettering apparently happened in 1949. In his book WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT, Jim Eager says that gondolas 6300-6400 were the first cars to wear the aluminum lettering. Supposedly the change was themed to the inauguration of the California Zephyr.

As far as I can tell from color photographs, the 1951 PS-1s
(20821-21400) were the first WP boxcars to be delivered with black ends. I could be wrong about this, but I think the 1947 cars were all-FCR and came with white lettering.

The black ends and roof were not painted. This was car cement, and was both difficult and expensive to remove. If it was in good condition, only the sides would have been repainted. Example: The original twenty silver PS-1 boxcars in series 19501-19520 built by Pullman in 1951 were silver on their ends and roofs. When it was decided in 1953 to expand the class by having Pullman add "compartmentizers" to 22 more cars from the main series (20821-21400), WP balked at the expense of having Pullman blast off the car cement, and the cars returned to the WP as 19521-19542 with their black ends and roofs. It appears that with the 1955 repaints, any remaining car cement was removed, as I have never seen a car (or photo) in this paint scheme with black ends. Ditto for DF/Compartmentizer/load restrainer boxcars that were repainted into the 1957/58 small orange feather and "Rides Like a Feather" paint scheme boxcars. All of these cars, including
19521-19542, received FCR ends and roofs. Apparently by then the WP had gotten over their cheapness regarding car cement, or it was in such bad condition the remainder had to be removed.

Keep in mind that consistency was never a strong suit on the WP. What the bean counters in San Francisco decided was sometimes ignored by the Jeffrey Shops crews in Sacramento. The WP was also a great experimenter (when they had the cash), always looking for some new technology or image that would give them an edge over the SP. Their boxcars were rolling billboards to these changes.

The WP wasn't particularly good about preserving their records either. The CSRM Library in Sacramento might have some painting standards. I obtained a detailed large scale drawing of the 16001 series boxcars from them, which was actually an early painting standards sheet.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 4/2/19 12:26 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:

The Branchline car was their stock number 1612, a 1947 car with 4/4 improved Dreadnaught ends and a 7' door. Branchline's car came with silver lettering. It should have been white, and this was corrected on the special run Branchline did for the PCR NMRA.

Garth,
The box cars offered by Branchline Trains were typically available in a 4-pack, which in some cases represented a mix of both new and repainted cars, plus a 5th model available to be bought as a single car. The 4-packs were often broken up by hobby shops and sold individually. 

For the BT 1612 models (20554, 20558, 20623, 20712, 20790) all five were intended to represent repainted cars with aluminum stencils. The model I have is the single model WP 20623 with SAC 6-52 reweigh stencils following essentially the same paint & lettering used on 580 WP 20821-21400 PS-1 box cars built in late 1951 that received aluminum stencils and black roof & ends. 

The later WP models with BT 2003 catalogue number via the PCR Regional NMRA Convention as denoted on the label, should have New 8-47 stencils (possibly other months), white stencils, and a Mount Vernon builder badge. 

I recall that when BT was making plans to produce these WP models that photos of early to mid-1950s repainted cars with aluminum stencils were difficult to locate, and the roof & end colors were not definitive. Does anyone know if repainted cars from WP 20551-20800 retained their original black roof & ends, or were the roof & ends painted the same color as the sides? I ask because to this day I don’t know for sure what the roof & end color of my model should be. 

Also, I’m curious if there is a WP box car paint/stencil drawing that denotes a revision & date when the change from white to aluminum stencils was made & if such a drawing defines the roof & ends for repainted cars with aluminum stencils during the early 1950s & before the circa June 1955 change to yellow stencils.

If the paint/stencil drawings aren’t known to exist, in the 17 years that have passed since these Branchline WP models were released circa May 2002, has one or more definitive photos been located to help determine the color of the roof & ends on repainted WP 20551-20800 series box cars?
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



Re: Throwback Tuesday: Ulrich GS Gon Ad, Model Railroader, October 1959

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Ben and friends

Great nostalgia. Besides the Ulrich gondolas, the dump truck is one of theirs, and these are like Gold when you can find them. The little people are Weston Mini Figures, which were continued by Campbell until just a few years ago. They were a little cartoonish when compared modern plastic offerings, but had good detail, nice painting, and great character.

Despite having cast on grabs, these gondolas still look good, and AFAIK, are the only models of this very common design. I have three. Despite being cast in what I think is zamak, they don't show any deterioration. Some other 1950s zamak models I have owned crumbled (an Ulrich composite mill gondola and a Roundhouse ore hopper). I am pretty sure two of mine are original Ulrich (I bought one new in the box in the 1970s), but the third is a more recent Walthers with plastic brake parts.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 4/2/19 12:11 AM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Ulrich GS Gon ad, October 1959 issue of Model Railroader.


Ben Hom


Re: Throwback Tuesday: Ulrich GS Gon Ad, Model Railroader, October 1959

Tony Thompson
 

Us SP modelers have long had to roster a bunch of these Ulrich cars to represent the thousands of Enterprise GS gons that SP bought in the 1920s. They were truly durable, remaining in service well into the 1960s on SP. As models, the Ulrich cars are not bad, though the white metal die castings are VERY hard and all but unworkable for those wishing to add wire grab irons. I have succeeded in adding improved brake gear.

Tony Thompson




Re: Gondola Load

Ed Hawkins
 


On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:

The Branchline car was their stock number 1612, a 1947 car with 4/4 improved Dreadnaught ends and a 7' door. Branchline's car came with silver lettering. It should have been white, and this was corrected on the special run Branchline did for the PCR NMRA.

Garth,
The box cars offered by Branchline Trains were typically available in a 4-pack, which in some cases represented a mix of both new and repainted cars, plus a 5th model available to be bought as a single car. The 4-packs were often broken up by hobby shops and sold individually. 

For the BT 1612 models (20554, 20558, 20623, 20712, 20790) all five were intended to represent repainted cars with aluminum stencils. The model I have is the single model WP 20623 with SAC 6-52 reweigh stencils following essentially the same paint & lettering used on 580 WP 20821-21400 PS-1 box cars built in late 1951 that received aluminum stencils and black roof & ends. 

The later WP models with BT 2003 catalogue number via the PCR Regional NMRA Convention as denoted on the label, should have New 8-47 stencils (possibly other months), white stencils, and a Mount Vernon builder badge. 

I recall that when BT was making plans to produce these WP models that photos of early to mid-1950s repainted cars with aluminum stencils were difficult to locate, and the roof & end colors were not definitive. Does anyone know if repainted cars from WP 20551-20800 retained their original black roof & ends, or were the roof & ends painted the same color as the sides? I ask because to this day I don’t know for sure what the roof & end color of my model should be. 

Also, I’m curious if there is a WP box car paint/stencil drawing that denotes a revision & date when the change from white to aluminum stencils was made & if such a drawing defines the roof & ends for repainted cars with aluminum stencils during the early 1950s & before the circa June 1955 change to yellow stencils.

If the paint/stencil drawings aren’t known to exist, in the 17 years that have passed since these Branchline WP models were released circa May 2002, has one or more definitive photos been located to help determine the color of the roof & ends on repainted WP 20551-20800 series box cars?
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Throwback Tuesday: Ulrich GS Gon Ad, Model Railroader, October 1959

Benjamin Hom
 

Ulrich GS Gon ad, October 1959 issue of Model Railroader.


Ben Hom


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Rob M.
 

My, my.  Bulldog Macks and fabricated steel everywhere.   The end shot of the gon on the curve is interesting.   The off-tracking due to the radii is oh so evident (photo *5042).

Rob Mondichak.


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Schuyler Larrabee
 

According to my April 1950 ORER, 16 of these cars remained in service.  They’re noted as having wood floors, but no word on whether the sides were sill wood or had been upgraded to steel.

 

Schuyler

 

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