Date   

Re: Poultry Cars

Steve SANDIFER
 

The problem is not just the mesh. Notice that the mesh is not continuous top to bottom of the car. It is in bands fastened to horizontal runners. Also notice that they are wooden shelves that are the bottom of the cages with wire dividers and internal bar doors. All of the models I have seen present each end of the car is one open cage. They are not. There are 32 individual cages in each quadrant of the car. My question is how to model that significant feature.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars

 

Indeed! The dimensions are close to those required, to my surprise.

 

Still, the mesh shown is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars. In my profession I had opportunity to work with a variety of such SS mesh in scientific sieves, filters, and such. I never saw any that was much better than 50% transparent, regardless of mesh size. Some of this problem may be due to the shiny surface of the SS mesh reflecting light. With sizes much below 0.020” things begin to look very different as light reacts differently to small objects than it does to large objects. Diffraction softens the appearance of all edges making small things look larger than they actually are. Thus a part of the problem here is physics. It’s similar to the problem of flat vs. glossy surfaces … such things to NOT "scale” as we expect since the light we view them with cannot be "scaled”.

 

Thus one faces the question… “Do you want it to be “scale”, or look like it is “scale? … choose ONE!  You can’t have both.

 

Another issue is that none of the photos I’ve seen of the poultry cars show shiny stainless wire mesh … more likely it was galvanized, a dull gray color, or painted. A real problem would be painting the very fine wire mesh screen without further blocking the holes in the mesh and reducing transparency. Perhaps some kind of chemical metal-blackening would work?

 

In my opinion adequate transparency is the most important issue here. YMMV.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

On Oct 26, 2018, at 10:54 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

 

400 mesh specs are 400x400 per in., opening size 0.0013 in. sq., 0.0010 in. wire diameter. This mesh was used for window screed, so it’s smaller than chicken wire. Anyone interested in chicken wire should have no trouble finding a suitable mesh on the TWP web page, just look at the spec. chart and match 0.0172 in. sq. Turn the wire 45° for a diamond pattern.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@... [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 9:39 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars

 

In her presentation, Kristen said the mesh on the car at St Louis measured:

1/8” woven wire, 1.5”x1.5” vertical diamond pattern

In HO that calls for a  0.0172 x 0.0172 mesh

 

Doug  Harding

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jake Schaible
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 6:26 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars

 

Nelson,

Where did you she her presentation?  I'm one of those whom work kept me from attending.  

The screen I measured on the existent poultry car in StL, IIRC, is a rather simple welded wire diamond mesh pattern of ~ 1.1" x 1.1" square.  

Cheers,

Jake

 


Re: Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company

Tim O'Connor
 


It's May 10, 1944 - less than a month before D-Day! They'd better get it going quickly
if it's going to be useful. :-)

Tim



An interest photo.  Given the 1944 date, I suspect Bruce may think so too, even if it is an Erie gon.
The caption is curious though.  I’d never heard an LCM called a barge, but I suppose they fit the broad definition.
Thanks for the link.
Ralph Brown

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/youngstown/id/54/rec/707

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Poultry Cars

Jake Schaible
 

Excellent presentation, Kristin!  Sorry I was not there to hear it.

But one point...  you state "E) The screens are 11" tall".  But I think this may be incomplete?

It wasn't readily apparent to me till I was stand in front of PPKX 5568 in St.L, but at least with that car, not all the screens are the same height.

See page 49 of your final deck, the picture on the lower right.  It shows the bottom screen on the side is slightly taller (7 diamonds vertically) than the screens above it (6 diamonds vertically) .  Additionally, photos I took show there is a third dimension height used on the roof screen under the vent doors - just 2.5 diamonds vertically

I didn't notice it then, but looking at your photos, it also seems the screen used at the very top of the sides may also have been narrower than those 6 diamond width below it?  Don't know...

So if the diamond holes are 1.5" on a side, ol' Pythagoras teaches the hypotenuse (height and width) would be something like 2.1213"?  So that would make the 6 hole tall screen at least 12.7" high and the 7 hole 14.85"?

Hmmm....   something doesn't quite fit.

Somewhere in my coop are the chicken scratches I jotted down from my own cold visit there....


Re: Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company

Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
 
"NOT A BARGE.  This is a LCVP (Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel)."

I'll buy the photo caption identifying the craft as a LCM-3 (Landing Craft, Mechanized).  Still not a barge by any definition.


Ben Hom


Re: Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company

Benjamin Hom
 

Claus Schlund  wrote:
"There is a nice image linked below showing the shipment of a barge in an ERIE gon."
 http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/youngstown/id/54/rec/707 
 
NOT A BARGE.  This is a LCVP (Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel).  A barge is typically unpowered and intended to be pushed or towed by a tug.  Landing Craft are self-propelled.

(Exception:  A ship's boat assigned to a Flag Officer is referred to as a "Barge".)


Ben Hom 


Large wheel made by Otis Iron & Steel Company

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
For your viewing enjoyment...
 
A nice set of images shows the unloading (?) of a "Large wheel made by Otis Iron & Steel Company" from a NYC&HR flat. Probably a specialized type of geared wheel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Claus Schlund


Diebolt Brewery - demolition

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
Image showing NYC&StL trussrod gons with steel tank loads.
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Claus,
 
An interest photo.  Given the 1944 date, I suspect Bruce may think so too, even if it is an Erie gon.
 
The caption is curious though.  I’d never heard an LCM called a barge, but I suppose they fit the broad definition.
 
Thanks for the link.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 3:14 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company
 
Hi List Members,
 
There is a nice image linked below showing the shipment of a barge in an ERIE gon.
 
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Shipment of barges at Warren City Manufacturing Company

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
There is a nice image linked below showing the shipment of a barge in an ERIE gon.
 
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: Rapido NP boxcar, K brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 08:54 AM, brianleppert@... wrote:
The car has fish belly center sills.
Ah, that answers that question. The levers run through slots in the sills with the connecting rod between the sills.

Dennis Storzek


Re: CNJ boxcars in LA circa 1947?

Tangent Scale Models
 

Tim,

I have a print of CRP 22672 taken in San Francisco in 1948.  I also have a photo of CNJ 23217 in 1955 and while the photo is undocumented I believe it to be in CA as well (same source photographer, from the Menke collection).  These are examples of CNJ's ubiquitous 7 foot door postwar AAR 10-high boxcars (1250 cars produced 1947-48).

I was born and grew up near the CNJ so it is a personal favorite of mine even though I only enjoyed it through a Conrail lens.

Best wishes,

David Lehlbach


Re: Rapido NP boxcar, K brake question

brianleppert@att.net
 

Dennis,

The car has fish belly center sills.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV.


Re: Rapido NP boxcar, K brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

Jim,

I haven't seen the model, and so am not entirely familiar with which series of cars it portrays, but this is a steel underframe car with straight sills, right? If so, the brake levers are normally supported on carriers below the sills, so how can the connecting rod be between them? do you mean below the sills on the car center line, perchance?

Dennis Storzek


Re: Poultry Cars

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

You’re missing the point. The geometrical dimensions do NOT describe the way the item LOOKS. I’ve agreed that the mesh is close to scale dimensionally, but it would not appear so on the model. Diffraction from such a fine mesh blurs the visiual appearance, making it look far more opaque than it may actually be. Some things do NOT "scale”.

As I stated: "The problem here is that a real item shrunk to 1/87 of it’s original size would NOT look “right” … the physics of light do not allow it."

Dan Mitchell
=========

On Oct 28, 2018, at 12:03 AM, Ralph W. Brown <rbrown51@...> wrote:

Dan,
 
The “high transparency” mesh I described in my earlier posts is 81% open or transparent.  Both the wire size and the mesh dimensions are very close to the prototype, but in HO scale.  See: https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 6:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
 
Yes, I’ve looked at it. I also attended Kristen’s presentation. To me the suggested wire mesh seems about 30% transparent, vs. perhaps 90-plus% for the real poultry cars.I’ve also worked with similar real mesh. It sure does NOT look like the mesh as seen on the real poultry cars. This is undoubtedly due to lighting effects, as the mesh’s dimensions seem close to correct. I suspect a good part of this is due to both lighting angle and diffraction.
 
The problem here is that a real item shrunk to 1/87 of it’s original size would NOT look “right” … the physics of light do not allow it.
 
Dan Mitchell
=========
 
On Oct 27, 2018, at 10:56 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
Dan, have you visited the TWP, Inc. web page and looked at the sample photos of fine stainless steel mesh? The phots show a model’s hand holding a 3x3 swatch of each available mesh so that prospective buyers can see the transparency. The photos are front lighted, and the mesh specifications, including wire diameter and opening size, are given for each mesh. I believe you will find these photos instructive.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
 
One only needs about 10% hole-to-matrix size to see through something when backlighted.
 
The poultry cars, however are very transparent when FRONT lighted. This requires more like 90% hole-to-matrix proportion. I’ve never seen really small mesh of any kind that comes even close to this proportion.
 
Thus, to my knowledge, all the really fine mesh available is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
 
 


Re: Rapido NP boxcar, K brake question

Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Thanks to all who responded. ThE discussion has been very informative.

Alex Schneider 


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 2:10 AM, np328
<jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:
   Alex,
      I just looked at one of the blueprints of the underframe that I submitted to Rapido years ago when this car was still "a proposal".
Brian is right, there is a connecting rod between the center sill member on the original as built drawing.                                                                Jim Dick - St. Paul MN


Re: Rapido NP boxcar, K brake question

np328
 

   Alex,
      I just looked at one of the blueprints of the underframe that I submitted to Rapido years ago when this car was still "a proposal".
Brian is right, there is a connecting rod between the center sill member on the original as built drawing.                                                                Jim Dick - St. Paul MN


Re: CNJ boxcars in LA circa 1947?

Allan Smith
 

I Have CNJ cars on my conductors lists from the Sierra from 1952 and 1954. I am away from home and will not return until Nov 22. After I return home I can post car numbers and dates. Al Smith Sonora Ca


Re: Poultry Cars

Tim O'Connor
 


Wow, thanks for that link. It's nearly invisible stuff! :-)

Tim O'


Dan,
 
The high transparency mesh I described in my earlier posts is 81% open or transparent.
Both the wire size and the mesh dimensions are very close to the prototype, but in HO scale.
See: https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012

Pax,
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Poultry Cars

Ralph W. Brown
 

Dan,
 
The “high transparency” mesh I described in my earlier posts is 81% open or transparent.  Both the wire size and the mesh dimensions are very close to the prototype, but in HO scale.  See: https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 6:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
 
Yes, I’ve looked at it. I also attended Kristen’s presentation. To me the suggested wire mesh seems about 30% transparent, vs. perhaps 90-plus% for the real poultry cars.I’ve also worked with similar real mesh. It sure does NOT look like the mesh as seen on the real poultry cars. This is undoubtedly due to lighting effects, as the mesh’s dimensions seem close to correct. I suspect a good part of this is due to both lighting angle and diffraction.
 
The problem here is that a real item shrunk to 1/87 of it’s original size would NOT look “right” … the physics of light do not allow it.
 
Dan Mitchell
=========
 
On Oct 27, 2018, at 10:56 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
Dan, have you visited the TWP, Inc. web page and looked at the sample photos of fine stainless steel mesh? The phots show a model’s hand holding a 3x3 swatch of each available mesh so that prospective buyers can see the transparency. The photos are front lighted, and the mesh specifications, including wire diameter and opening size, are given for each mesh. I believe you will find these photos instructive.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
 
One only needs about 10% hole-to-matrix size to see through something when backlighted.
 
The poultry cars, however are very transparent when FRONT lighted. This requires more like 90% hole-to-matrix proportion. I’ve never seen really small mesh of any kind that comes even close to this proportion.
 
Thus, to my knowledge, all the really fine mesh available is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
 
 


Re: CNJ boxcars in LA circa 1947?

Tim O'Connor
 


I completely agree with Bill's statement, and it was especially true 1941 to 1945
when normal car service rules were mostly suspended (except for car service directives).
Nevertheless, I've never seen a photo of a CNJ box car anywhere near the west coast in
the steam era (i.e. prior to 1960). I admit I haven't looked for them, but still...
After 1960, however - CNJ acquired LNE "X29" (ARA, really) style box cars and those I
have seen several times in the west in photos. My Dad even took a picture of one in
Pueblo CO in 1967, still wearing LNE reporting marks.

Tim O'Connor


 XM boxcars went everywhere.
 Bill Welch

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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