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Re: Poultry Cars
Kristin Dummler
All, I’m excited to get a sample of the TWP mesh. It might solve a lot of challenges. And it may make more. Ha ha! Working with metal all day for my day job has taught me a lot of things about what is possible and what isn’t. One thing I do know .... each time someone says it can’t be done, a solution comes to light. I actually have another mesh that I came across after my presentation at RPM. It’s a photo-etch brass product and, while not to size for prototype, it would offer a nice option for the modeler going for the “look” of the wire mesh. I’m attaching a couple of photos of the car with the stainless mesh I have currently, and the more open etched brass, while I await a sample of the most recently shared TWP mesh. Stainless .020 diamond mesh Photo-etch. Diamond openings. Comparison. A solution will present itself. I have no doubt. Kristin D.
On Oct 27, 2018, at 10:03 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
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Re: Poultry Cars
gary laakso
Ajin, the builder, for Overland used an etched stainless steel for its poultry cars.
Gary Laakso
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 7:57 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
Dan, have you visited the TWP, Inc. web page and looked at the sample photos of fine stainless steel mesh? The phots show a model’s hand holding a 3x3 swatch of each available mesh so that prospective buyers can see the transparency. The photos are front lighted, and the mesh specifications, including wire diameter and opening size, are given for each mesh. I believe you will find these photos instructive.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
One only needs about 10% hole-to-matrix size to see through something when backlighted.
The poultry cars, however are very transparent when FRONT lighted. This requires more like 90% hole-to-matrix proportion. I’ve never seen really small mesh of any kind that comes even close to this proportion.
Thus, to my knowledge, all the really fine mesh available is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: Poultry Cars
Nelson Moyer
Funny you should mention spiders, Jared. I left some cars on the layout while they were waiting for the paint shop, and one or more itsy bitsy spider spun a complex of webs all over the brake rigging. I didn’t see the fine webs until after painting the car. Talk about a PITA trying to remove the webs without damaging the brake rigging! Time to have the house sprayed for arachnids.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Jared Harper
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:30 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
You need to find a cooperative spider who can spin its threads without the adhesive.
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Re: Poultry Cars
Not that I am personally interested in any (more than enough
projects, already!), a little back of the envelope calculation reveals that if 9
people went together to purchase the minimum quantity of the referenced
material, they would each pay $13 and come away with shared piece that would be
6x16 inches. Far better than $10 for a 3x3 swatch.
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:42 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars Dan have you looked at Kristen’s clinic pdf? It includes photos of the still existing car. The close up photos clearly show a woven wire mesh. I would suspect galvanized wire, as the cars shows considerable rust in places, but no rust on the woven wire.
The website posted by Nelson offers a mesh in the necessary wire size. And Ralph has pointed out a mesh opening is offered that comes close to that on a poultry car, for use in HO. Will it be shiny?Using stainless steel no doubt it will be. But do we have anything else that comes close?
I, for one, think this is an exciting development in the quest for a poultry car. Having been researching them for some time myself, I was excited to see Kristen’s presentation. And the ensuing discussion about a possible etched screen, and now the offering of a suitable wire mesh https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012 makes a credible model all the more possible.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: Poultry Cars
Nelson Moyer
Dan, have you visited the TWP, Inc. web page and looked at the sample photos of fine stainless steel mesh? The phots show a model’s hand holding a 3x3 swatch of each available mesh so that prospective buyers can see the transparency. The photos are front lighted, and the mesh specifications, including wire diameter and opening size, are given for each mesh. I believe you will find these photos instructive.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:50 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
One only needs about 10% hole-to-matrix size to see through something when backlighted.
The poultry cars, however are very transparent when FRONT lighted. This requires more like 90% hole-to-matrix proportion. I’ve never seen really small mesh of any kind that comes even close to this proportion.
Thus, to my knowledge, all the really fine mesh available is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: Poultry Cars
Dan have you looked at Kristen’s clinic pdf? It includes photos of the still existing car. The close up photos clearly show a woven wire mesh. I would suspect galvanized wire, as the cars shows considerable rust in places, but no rust on the woven wire.
The website posted by Nelson offers a mesh in the necessary wire size. And Ralph has pointed out a mesh opening is offered that comes close to that on a poultry car, for use in HO. Will it be shiny?Using stainless steel no doubt it will be. But do we have anything else that comes close?
I, for one, think this is an exciting development in the quest for a poultry car. Having been researching them for some time myself, I was excited to see Kristen’s presentation. And the ensuing discussion about a possible etched screen, and now the offering of a suitable wire mesh https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012 makes a credible model all the more possible.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: Poultry Cars
Jared Harper
You need to find a cooperative spider who can spin its threads without the adhesive.
Jared Harper Athens, GA
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Re: 55 Ton Fishbelly Hopper Cars
I assume you guys are speaking about "late" fishbelly twin hoppers (the Stewart/Bowser model)? Pressed Steel Car Company first came out with these cars in the late 1890's. The largest customer was PRR with over 20,000 GLs, GLCs, CLCAs, GLCBs and GLHs, ultimately coming from several car builders, included the railroad itself. The January 1954 ORER shows over 4,700 of these cars still in service of that late date.
Since Steve Stewart lives in the area, I suspect he used the LV/RDG versions as the basis of the model, although they differed from lot to lot. -- John
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Re: Poultry Cars
Indeed! The dimensions are close to those required, to my surprise.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Still, the mesh shown is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars. In my profession I had opportunity to work with a variety of such SS mesh in scientific sieves, filters, and such. I never saw any that was much better than 50% transparent, regardless of mesh size. Some of this problem may be due to the shiny surface of the SS mesh reflecting light. With sizes much below 0.020” things begin to look very different as light reacts differently to small objects than it does to large objects. Diffraction softens the appearance of all edges making small things look larger than they actually are. Thus a part of the problem here is physics. It’s similar to the problem of flat vs. glossy surfaces … such things to NOT "scale” as we expect since the light we view them with cannot be "scaled”. Thus one faces the question… “Do you want it to be “scale”, or look like it is “scale? … choose ONE! You can’t have both. Another issue is that none of the photos I’ve seen of the poultry cars show shiny stainless wire mesh … more likely it was galvanized, a dull gray color, or painted. A real problem would be painting the very fine wire mesh screen without further blocking the holes in the mesh and reducing transparency. Perhaps some kind of chemical metal-blackening would work? In my opinion adequate transparency is the most important issue here. YMMV. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: Poultry Cars
Bill Welch
Knowing Kristin and her background and who she linked up w/at Lisle, the two of them will "get 'er done."
Bill Welch
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Re: 55 Ton Fishbelly Hopper Cars
thomas christensen
ACL 50 ton fishbelly hoppers per 12/53 roster and 10/47 and 8/57 diagram books.
30'11 3/4" IL 11'0" EH 2054 CF K-3 80475-80652 K-4 80702-80798 K-5 81003-81499 blt 1926 Pressed Steel Car Co. Built with flat ends and flat bottoms with 4 pairs of traverse doors. Rebuilt 1952/53 as 2 bay hoppers, some with peaked ends. 30'11 3/4" IL 12'3" EH 2054 CF K-8 81500-81999 blt 1940 Bethlehem Steel Built with peaked ends. CF is level load. Tom Christensen
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Re: Poultry Cars
And even more important, wire size of only a bit over 0.001” diameter (1/8” = 0.125”, and 0.125 /87= 0.0014”). Not at all practical.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: Poultry Cars
One only needs about 10% hole-to-matrix size to see through something when backlighted.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The poultry cars, however are very transparent when FRONT lighted. This requires more like 90% hole-to-matrix proportion. I’ve never seen really small mesh of any kind that comes even close to this proportion. Thus, to my knowledge, all the really fine mesh available is far to opaque to represent the mesh on the poultry cars. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: Poultry Cars
The problem besetting most of us regarding the wire mesh on the poultry cars is not the 1.5” mesh size but the 1/8” wire size. In HO scale that’s only a little over 0.001”. None of the available mesh, either woven or photo-etched, is nearly this small. Thus the fine mesh screens available are far too dense, and usually barely transparent at all. Photos of the poultry cars show the screens as very transparent, and the chickens (or whatever) inside as very visible.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The issue here is really the mesh OPENING size, not the wire size. To get an adequate opening, and accompanying appropriate transparency, a larger than scale wire size is a necessity. And, if woven, the larger-than-scale wire size results in a mesh far thicker than scale. Was the original mesh woven or welded? Even if a scale wire-sized screen was available it would be spider-web delicate and pretty much unusable. Thus, due to the larger-than-scale wire sizes involved any screens available in HO have to be far coarser pitch than scale or you could not see through them. Dan Mitchell ==========
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55 Ton Fishbelly Hopper Cars
David
And I just now remembered that AC&Y had some 33' IL cars I have no details on.
David Thompson
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RPM addendum
Eric Hansmann
I've posted more RPM Chicagoland thoughts on my DesignBuildOp blog. Included are links to resource websites that were discussed in my presentation on Pre-Depression Era Railroading. http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2018/10/27/rpm-addendum/ Eric Hansmann
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Re: Poultry Cars
Kristin Dummler
All,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thank you all for your input on the mesh! The screen on TWP is really quite impressive and close to prototypical dimension. I did have a chance to look around there a bit yesterday evening. I'd have to get a sample and see what it looked like in person to know if it works for the poultry, however I'll most likely give it a try. So far, all the other sample materials I have are not quite right. For those who haven't seen the presentation, here are the complete measurements I was given for the car in St. Louis: A)The screen wire is a 1/8"
diameter solid wire woven
B) The pattern is in a 1 1/2" x 1
1/2"Diamond Pattern vertically
C) The "C" channel frame holding
the wire screen is a 1" tall, with 1/2" legs
D) The length of the screens,
(along the car) is 14'-6"
E) The screens are 11" tall
F) The gap between the screens is
3"
G) That is tongue and groove wood
sticking out between the screens.The videos that Doug mentions are really fantastic. Unfortunately PDF does not have live video capability yet. Kristin Dummler
On 10/26/2018 11:38 PM, Douglas Harding
wrote:
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Re: Poultry Cars
One thing missing from Kristen’s presentation handout were the brief videos. They are not part of her pdf. I posted links to the videos she used, to this list back in August.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 11:20 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
Doug, Dave, et al.,
Doug said - “In her presentation, Kristen said the mesh on the car at St Louis measured: 1/8” woven wire, 1.5”x1.5” vertical diamond pattern.”
Diamond patterns are typically described by their axis dimensions, so doing the math the mesh would be 1.06066” square and rotated 45 degrees. Eighth inch wire would be 0.001435” diameter, and the mesh would be 0.01248” x 0.01248”. That would be, I think, about 82 mesh of 0.0014 wire. As it turns out, there is actually a stainless steel mesh that comes reasonably close! It is T316 stainless “high transparency” 0.0012” wire 80 mesh, but it’s more than a bit pricey starting at $19.50/sq. ft. for 1-24 sq. ft. with a minimum order of $100.00. A full 4’ x 100’ roll goes for $1,950.00, which drops the price per sq. ft. to $4.88.
One may check it out here: https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012.
It looks like pretty amazing stuff, but given the very small quantities most of might need, I think suspect we.d need a fair sized group to make a purchase worthwhile. A 3” x 3” sample or “swatch” is also available for $10.00 ($40.00/sq. ft.).
Pax,
Ralph Brown
From: Dave Parker via Groups.Io Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 11:26 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars
Nelson:
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Re: Poultry Cars
Ralph W. Brown
Doug, Dave, et al.,
Doug said - “In
her presentation, Kristen said the mesh on the car at St Louis
measured: 1/8” woven wire, 1.5”x1.5” vertical
diamond pattern.”
Diamond patterns are typically described by their axis dimensions, so doing
the math the mesh would be 1.06066” square and rotated 45 degrees. Eighth inch
wire would be 0.001435” diameter, and the mesh would be 0.01248” x
0.01248”. That would be, I think, about 82 mesh of 0.0014 wire. As
it turns out, there is actually a stainless steel mesh that comes reasonably
close! It is T316 stainless “high transparency” 0.0012” wire 80 mesh, but
it’s more than a bit pricey starting at $19.50/sq. ft. for 1-24 sq. ft. with a
minimum order of $100.00. A full 4’ x 100’ roll goes for $1,950.00, which
drops the price per sq. ft. to $4.88.
One may check it out here: https://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh-material/stainless-steel/80-mesh-stainless-high-transparency-0012.
It looks like pretty amazing stuff, but given the very small quantities
most of might need, I think suspect we.d need a fair sized group to make a
purchase worthwhile. A 3” x 3” sample or “swatch” is also available for
$10.00 ($40.00/sq. ft.).
Pax,
Ralph
Brown
Portland, Maine PRRT&HS No. 3966 NMRA No. L2532 rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
From: Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 11:26 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars Nelson: To get 1.5 x 1.5" openings in HO scale, one could consider ~40 mesh screen with ~0.017" openings. The problem with metal screens for Kristin's application is the wire size -- 1/8" wire in HO scale would be 0.0014", which is much finer than the wire in any of the commercial metal screens, brass or stainless. "Traditional" chicken wire would be even more problematic given how fine the wire is there. Dave Parker Riverside, CA
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Re: Poultry Cars
Dave Parker
Nelson:
To get 1.5 x 1.5" openings in HO scale, one could consider ~40 mesh screen with ~0.017" openings. The problem with metal screens for Kristin's application is the wire size -- 1/8" wire in HO scale would be 0.0014", which is much finer than the wire in any of the commercial metal screens, brass or stainless. "Traditional" chicken wire would be even more problematic given how fine the wire is there. Dave Parker Riverside, CA
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