Date   

Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Denny Anspach
 

As a person who actually dealt with stock cars (iin late fifties in Fonda, iowa assisting an impatient awaitingMilwaukee Road road crew hurry the loading of hogs into a MILW stock car); and personally receiving an ancient WP stock car into the CSRM collection in the mid seventies, I simply recall no paint, white wash, disinfectant, etc.)- just bare boards. I cannot imagine what importance would accrue to painting the interior, aside from carelessness, mistakes, or vanity. Think constant and immediate wear, toxics, etc.

My family (both sides) also shipped a LOT of cattle. The shippers were responsible for supplying all the straw for the bedding in the car, and the hay for feed (not the same thing!. I forget who was responsible for car cleaning after unloading at the stockyards in Chicago, etc. If disinfectants were applied there, I can recall no color indication that would have given a clue.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864


Re: Interesting B-50-17 pics

gary laakso
 

Johannes, you are correct that their omission on the model was very odd and not noted at the time of their import.   Those locomotive/passenger car importer guys may have been too busy to notice!

 

Gary Laakso

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of vapeurchapelon
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 7:52 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics

 

No I am definitely not sure. I used the dicionary to find an English word for "unterschlagen", maybe is "conceal" or "keep quiet about" better for the context? I apologize for such awful problems. I am constantly trying to get better in both modeling and English speaking.

 

Best Regards

 

Johannes

 

Gesendet: Montag, 07. Mai 2018 um 16:16 Uhr
Von: naptownprr <jhunter@...>
An: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics

embezzle?  Are you sure that's the word you want to use?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 7:41 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics

 

Hello Gary,

 

thanks for mentioning this beautyful model. But by all its beauty and accuracy one shouldn't embezzle that CIL - for whatever reason - omitted the coupler lift bar and its brackets/ eyebolts (which would be easy to add, nonetheless).

 

(I am looking for such a model (mint condition or professionally weathered), btw.)

 

Johannes

 

Gesendet: Montag, 07. Mai 2018 um 05:12 Uhr
Von: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics

Challenger Imports brought in these cars in brass (Catalog #2408) using the data supplied by Bob Darwin of hyper detail brass locomotives in MR decades ago.  A variety of lettering schemes were offered by Challenger.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Interesting B-50-17 pics

Tom Madden
 

In this case I think "ignore" might be the best word. 

Tom Madden


Re: Brake line pressure

Dave Parker
 

I know the original query was in reference to the "late steam era", but FYI my 1918 Westinghouse brake handbook gives 70 psi as the standard for the train-line pressure.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jim Betz
 

Steve and all,

  I've actually used a steam hose to clean - a salmon cannery in my case.  This method
did not significantly heat the surfaces being cleaned for any longer than the steam 
was directed at a particular part/area.  It was -very- important that we got any and all
fish left on the machines and floors and wood bins, etc. off to leave the cannery clean
enough for the next day's work.  It was cleaned once a day - after the crew went
home.
  I touched some of the surfaces after cleaning and they were, at most, warm.
  The pressure of the steam (force) seemed (to me) to be more important than
the heat.  And - the fact that using steam didn't leave a lot of water any where.

  I've heard many times that steam was one of the ways that stock cars were
cleaned and it makes sense to me.  I would also expect it to have been used
in reefers - but I may be wrong on that?

  I respect your research - but perhaps there are some 'missing items' that
have yet to be discovered?  Especially with respect to "era"?
  I just saw "A Few Good Men" (again).  In it they made a lot out of the
difference between what was "in the manuals" and what was actually
happening "in practice" ... oral history -can- be as accurate as what is
in the manuals/regulations.  There is no doubt in my mind about what
John Lewis and I did in the salmon cannery after the regular crew was
gone ... and I don't think there was a 'manual' for how to do the
cleaning of the salmon canning line ... *G*
                                                                                         - Jim B.
                                                                                                           - Jim B.


Just Moved

skyking1084
 

Member of the old STMFC.  Long time fan.  Was a member of 18 Yahoo groups, no more.  Model in HO/HOn3 dual gauge in 1955.

Dave L


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jon Miller
 

On 5/7/2018 8:43 AM, Jim Betz wrote:
Was there room for the animals to lay down inside?  Probably not all of them at
once?

    In our era I believe animals were not allowed to lay down (one reason cowboys rode the train).  If they did they probably would get trampled.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jim Betz
 

Ed,
  In re-thinking your decision above ... I think you might be better off going for "aged wood"
than "weathered" ... but with hints/evidence/recent affects caused by cleaning.
                                                                                                                                   - Jim B.


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jim Betz
 

Ed,
  I agree with your decision.  You may want to use washes of very dilute white 
with overtones of grey and/or dark organic color to represent a car that has
been cleaned in the past ...
  I've been able to achieve "weathered wood" best by using a dilute stain
rather than a paint.  If the material is actual wood (of course).

  I have a plastic box car that I lined the interior of it with wood that had
the above treatments applied and it came out -very- well.  So much so
that I like to run it with one door open and the other slighly open.  *G*
                                                                                                 - Jim B. 


Re: Brake line pressure

Robert Allan
 

In my years on the MoPac, we were at 80# brakepipe pressure. UP was at 90# so several years after the merger, we aligned with the system standard.

Bob Allan


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jim Betz
 

  This car is "too long since it was in service" for my tastes.  And do we know the
date or even decade this pic was taken?
                                                                                                                 - Jim B.


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

Jim Betz
 

Hi,
  These are the pics I've been waiting for ... interiors of cars that appear to actually be
either in service or just about to be placed into service.  Although one of them (all?)
is pretty early to be of major importance to me (1923).

  I doubt white wash - I've applied white wash and I think the concern would be that
the animals inside the car might chew on the boards and be contaminated ...
  I definitely have seen exterior shots of stock cars that had "some kind of white
stuff" on the lower boards that appeared to be coming out from the inside more
than 'painted on the outside' (and probably from being used to 'clean' the inside
of the car).  Other cars that clearly had several of the bottom boards (6 or so?)
painted white (exterior only?) ... I have always thought those RRs were trying to
mask the white 'ooze' ... as in "accept it and deal with it".

  I believe/recall that the RRs used a variety of materials as "bedding".  Straw or sand
(just sandy soil?) being the most common - and some times both.
  Was there room for the animals to lay down inside?  Probably not all of them at
once?

  In the 1st paragraph above I noted the date.  I would expect that there were
changes in 'standard practices' over the years.  I've never seen any details on
major ruling/practice changes for stock cars - BY DATE.  Anybody know of
some?  I'm thinking of the kind of things we've seen from Guy - but for
stock cars - or rulings/practices related to stock hauls.
                                                                                                             - Jim B.


Re: Interesting B-50-17 pics

Jon Miller
 

On 5/7/2018 7:51 AM, vapeurchapelon wrote:
maybe is "conceal" or "keep quiet about" better for the context? I apologize for such awful problems

    English can be well, hard. Conceal could mean I keep the car in a closet while "keep quiet about" could mean I don't tell anyone I have one.

    I think maybe something along the lines of "show it (freight car) to people" or "display it" (freight car) as opposed to hiding it.  So changing the term "embezzle" to "hide" (the freight car) would work.

    From a guy (me) who can't speak any other language and has a hard time with English (American):-)!

freight car added for legal list reasons:-D

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Contact at Strasburg Railroad?

Dennis Storzek
 

Marty,

Don't know who you've been given for contacts, but I would suggest contacting the boss of the shops, Kelly Anderson, and I can provide e-mail.
If you are looking for original lettering or construction details, you may be disappointed, as the car was re-sided by Strasburg in 1993, and again in 2015.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Interesting B-50-17 pics

vapeurchapelon
 

No I am definitely not sure. I used the dicionary to find an English word for "unterschlagen", maybe is "conceal" or "keep quiet about" better for the context? I apologize for such awful problems. I am constantly trying to get better in both modeling and English speaking.
 
Best Regards
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Montag, 07. Mai 2018 um 16:16 Uhr
Von: naptownprr <jhunter@...>
An: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics

embezzle?  Are you sure that's the word you want to use?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 7:41 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics
 
Hello Gary,
 
thanks for mentioning this beautyful model. But by all its beauty and accuracy one shouldn't embezzle that CIL - for whatever reason - omitted the coupler lift bar and its brackets/ eyebolts (which would be easy to add, nonetheless).
 
(I am looking for such a model (mint condition or professionally weathered), btw.)
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Montag, 07. Mai 2018 um 05:12 Uhr
Von: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics
Challenger Imports brought in these cars in brass (Catalog #2408) using the data supplied by Bob Darwin of hyper detail brass locomotives in MR decades ago.  A variety of lettering schemes were offered by Challenger.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Brake line pressure

Dennis Storzek
 

I will have to check my steam era Soo Line air brake rules book, but as I recall during the steam era 70 psi for freight and 90 psi for passenger were common. Keep in mind that that automatic air brake equipment functions on the pressure differential from the pressure the system was initially charged to. System pressure was determined by the setting of the locomotive feed valve. Higher pressures did not result in higher braking force, but did effect the time required to release the brakes and recharge the system. The higher pressure aids recharge time on today's longer trains.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Paint color for inside model stock cars

James SANDIFER
 

I don’t know why Richard thought that. I used to say the same thing, probably after talking to him. Richard was a wealth of information and a gracious mentor to me and others. We roomed together at several Santa Fe conventions and were scheduled to do so when he died. I loved the man and would do nothing to criticize him. I would love to talk to Richard about it.  

 

What I am finding in my research is that there are lots of stories that people will swear by that just don’t add up. For instance people all of the time cite the 24 hour law. It was a 28 hour law. But folks swear it was 24 hours. As I do oral histories, I have to constantly check written histories to see if memories have been blurred by time. Of course that is not to say that the railroad always followed their own rules. Standard plans and some rules were taken as “suggestions.” 

 

Also I would remind you that I am researching the Santa Fe.  Not all railroads did things the same way. Also railroad policies and operations evolved with time and technology. My interior photo of a Santa Fe SK-K shows unpainted wood on the inside. The photos of the SK-N (3-30-43), SK-R (4-1-35), SK-Z (10-1-41) and SK-4 are painted on the interior.

 

Last night I secured a copy of how the Santa Fe cleaned reefers, circa 1952. Santa Fe had no meat reefers, so these were for produce reefers. Reefers were to be swept out, “being sure all cracks are cleaned. If sweeping does not properly clean, due to molasses, paint, etc., such portions of the wall or floor should be scraped. If necessary, follow scraping with a scrub brush and cleaning solution (Item No. 3) with warm water or (Item No. 9) with hot water.”… “Water under pressure may be used in bunkers only, for cleaning purposes.”  “UNDER NO CONDITION SHOULD WATER TO BE ALLOWED TO STAND ON THE INTERIOR OF REFRIGERATOR CARS. NOR SHOULD THEY BE CLEANED WITH RUNNING WATER UNDER PRESSURE.” (Emphasis by the Santa Fe.)

 

Item No. 3 was 2-3 ounces per gallon of water of approved cleaners: Oakite No. 70, C&H No. 50, or Turco No. 1.

Item No. 9 was for cleaning Dining Car kitchen and Baggage Car Floors and Floor Racks and Garbage cans: 2-4 ounces per gallon of hot water: Oakite Penetrant.

 

Again, if someone can provide me with documentation concerning steam cleaning of stock cars I would love to have it. I have travelled from Houston to Chicago to Albuquerque researching in libraries information on Santa Fe livestock operations and long for more information quickly before this book goes to press. And if anyone has a Santa Fe Circular 2240 on Livestock Shipping it appears to be the elusive holy grail.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2018 11:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Paint color for inside model stock cars

 

Steve, Richard Hendrickson was always adamant that Santa Fe stock cars were steam cleaned. What must he have based that on?

Tony Thompson 


On May 6, 2018, at 9:09 PM, James SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Everything depends on your railroad, stock carried, and era. There were periods of time when there were contaminated live stock and quarantine rules. There were diseases for sheep (scabies), cattle (tick fever), hogs, goats, etc, and not all at the same time. There was a procedure for dipping cattle, waiting an interval, and dipping them again in order to get them certified as clean animals. If shipping clean cattle in clean areas, all that the Santa Fe required was shoveling the dirty bedding out and applying clean (sand).  Nothing else, no steam cleaning, no lime, nothing.

 

If shipping contaminated live stock in a stock car, then disinfecting the car after the shipment and proper disposal of dirty bedding was mandated by the government and various state laws. If the stock was unloaded into a pen for feed, water, and rest, that pen and all pens connected to it were considered contaminated and those pens also required disinfecting before any clean animals cold be placed there. At certain periods of time, the railroad maintained two sets of pens at many locations, one for clean animals and one for dirty animals so they did not have to continually disinfect the pens.

 

The US Department of Agriculture, Bureau of Animal Industry, had regulations governing the Interstate Movement of Live Stock, revised at various times. The July 1, 1919 rules are 27 single spaced pages and reads like the legal document it is. The permitted method of disinfecting was:

 

PERMITTED DISINFECTANTS.

 

SECTION 6. Paragraph 1. The substances permitted for use in disinfecting cars, boats, other vehicles, and premises are as follows:

(a) Compound solution of cresol, U. S. P., at a dilution of at least 4 fluid ounces to 1 gallon of water.

(b) A permitted "saponified cresol solution" at a dilution of at least 4 fluid ounces to 1 gallon of water.

(c) Liquified phenol (liquified carbolic acid) at a dilution of at least 6 fluid ounces to 1 gallon of water.

(d) Chlorid of lime (U. S. P. strength, 30 per cent available chlorin) at a dilution of 1 pound to 3 gallons of water.

Paragraph 2. The use of "saponified cresol solution" as a substitute for compound solution of cresol, U. S. P., as a disinfectant is permitted, provided that such" saponified cresol solution" shall conform to the following requirements :

1. The formula of the product shall employ not less than 28 per cent by weight of linseed oil. Either caustic potash, caustic soda, or a mixture of caustic potash and caustic soda may be used to saponify the linseed oil. The cresol used must be at least 95 per cent pure, and enough of this commercial grade of cresol (cresylic acid) must be employed in compounding the disinfectant to bring the actual amount of cresol in the finished product up to 50 per cent.

2. The product net shall remain a homogeneous liquid when cooled to 32° F. It shall contain substantially no unsaponified linseed oil or excess alkali. It shall be readily soluble in cold distilled water. The solution shall be practically clear and shall contain no globules of undissolved oil or cresylic acid.

3. Manufacturers wishing to offer saponified cresol solution as dictated above for use in official disinfection must first submit a sample of at least 8 ounces for examination, together with a statement of the formula employed and a guaranty that the product will be maintained of a quality uniform with the sample submitted.

4. To prevent confusion, each product must bear a distinctive trade name or brand, together with the name of the manufacturer or distributer. There shall be no mention of the United States Department of Agriculture or the Bureau of Animal Industry on the labels, containers, or printed matter accompanying products permitted to be used in official disinfection. The permitted saponified cresol solution hall be used at a dilution of at least 4 ounces of the solution to 1 gallon of water.

 

I have heard from list groups, but not read in any source document, that some meat packing plans steam cleaned stock cars, but again, I have searched and found nothing official to confirm that. Steam cleaning is not an authorized method in the above US Govt. document. It makes more sense that they steam cleaned meet reefers. My interviews with “old heads” who worked with shipping cattle said they only shoveled them out, but those men now in their 80s and 90s did not work on stock trains until the late 50s and 60s after most of the quarantines were no longer in use.  If any of you have any documented proof of the steam cleaning, I would like to have it for a book I am finishing up on this subject.

 

The Santa Fe Mechanical Department published a set of “Rules Governing the Painting, Cleaning, Fumigating and sanitation of Passenger, Work and Freight Equipment Cars an Steam and Diesel Locomotives,” Rev. 1952.  It states that for Santa Fe stock cars everything, inside and out, under and over, received brown mineral No. 903 primer. The wood slats were primed on all surfaces before installation into the car and then after applied were given “2 finishing coats of standard brown mineral paint. “ The exception to the all brown mineral paint was the side door slats on double deck stock cars which were to be given “two coats of refrigerator yellow on all four sides.” Now, the animals inside constantly rubbed those painted surfaces, including with horns. So I imagine the interior paint was rubbed off to a certain level long before the exterior paint would show that same wear. Steam cleaning would be very destructive to that paint as well as getting into the wood and causing the exterior paint to come off as well. From my research the exterior of stock cars tended to weather at about the same pace as wooden outside braced or double sided wooden box cars.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@...] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2018 10:39 PM
To:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Paint color for inside model stock cars

 

Steve Sandifer can say more, but my understanding is that lime was a stopgap. Steam was more effective and essentially standard.

Tony Thompson 


On May 5, 2018, at 8:18 PM, mbcarson2002 <mbcarson@...> wrote:

FWIW, I am led to believe the stock cars were disinfected with lime between runs and so typical stock cars typically had white residue inside that sometimes bled outside.

MBC

Michael Carson


Re: Interesting B-50-17 pics

naptownprr
 

embezzle?  Are you sure that's the word you want to use?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 7:41 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics
 
Hello Gary,
 
thanks for mentioning this beautyful model. But by all its beauty and accuracy one shouldn't embezzle that CIL - for whatever reason - omitted the coupler lift bar and its brackets/ eyebolts (which would be easy to add, nonetheless).
 
(I am looking for such a model (mint condition or professionally weathered), btw.)
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Montag, 07. Mai 2018 um 05:12 Uhr
Von: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Interesting B-50-17 pics
Challenger Imports brought in these cars in brass (Catalog #2408) using the data supplied by Bob Darwin of hyper detail brass locomotives in MR decades ago.  A variety of lettering schemes were offered by Challenger.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Shipping Beef Half Sides: Frozen Or Just Very Cold?

james murrie
 

Not sure about Steam Era meat refers, but in the "future" I moved a semi filled with "swinging pork" from Sioux Center Iowa to a packing plant in the Hunt's Point Terminal area of the South Bronx (in those days an area that could be used as a movie location for a war zone).  The refer was cold but certainly not below freezing for the couple days in transit.  The same "large men" that Denny saw were still working to unload carcasses off the hooks and into the plant.

Return trip was with a load of Dutch cocoa from the docks at Weehawken, NJ to Carnation at Oelwein Iowa.  The drop off was in a building of the old CGW roundhouse area (mandatory railroad content).

Jim Murrie


Re: Contact at Strasburg Railroad?

haksawjoes
 

Marty,
May be able to help with Strasburg RR car shop contact, contact me
haksawjoes at hotmail dot com
Joe Smith