Date   

Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Tim O'Connor
 


They can't both be. In "outside length" they are listed as

  115000 to 116599 were 40ft 11in
  116600 to 116849 were 41ft 4in
  116850 to 117999 were 42ft 4in

Tim O'Connor



Are these two photos from the design being discussed?

Attachments:


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

O Fenton Wells
 

You might want to check the Red Caboose car.  I have never done this as I purchased enough from Gary Wright.  But that was where I was going if I couldn't find the resin kits.  Some bashing may be in order depending on how close you want to come to the SR car.
Fenton Wells

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:52 AM, Bruce Griffin <bdg1210@...> wrote:
Group,

It was suggested that the kits might be more easily available through DesPlaines Hobbies. They do not have this kit on their inventory. Right now I am in a buy mode for kits as my stash seems small enough to finish in a reasonable time. Any other thoughts on a getting a copy?  As a B&O modeler I am also looking for a copy of the resin “gon” the B&ORRHS sold, maybe an O-24 class, that has a similar look to the Southern flat car with sides. Thanks in advance.

Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD (not a town with a PO anymore, but a place forever on the PRR NCR)





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

O Fenton Wells
 

You are correct Bill.
Fenton

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:42 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:
I have always thought that open top Southern freight equipment during the period of this list was black.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce Smith
 

Let me clarify ;)

#117644 is  COMPOSITE GONDOLA based on the same flat car as the series being discussed.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Jul 11, 2018, at 8:25 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Bill,

Nope.  

#117644 is a later class that is very similar 41’6” flat
#115848 is an earlier 40’ car. Note that the sill steps are attached to the side and not the bottom of the sill

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Jul 11, 2018, at 2:39 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Are these two photos from the design being discussed? <wood side gon 117644 .tif><flat car 115848 .tif>



Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

Nope.  

#117644 is a later class that is very similar 41’6” flat
#115848 is an earlier 40’ car. Note that the sill steps are attached to the side and not the bottom of the sill

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Jul 11, 2018, at 2:39 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Are these two photos from the design being discussed? <wood side gon 117644 .tif><flat car 115848 .tif>


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bill Welch
 

I have always thought that open top Southern freight equipment during the period of this list was black.

Bill Welch


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bill Welch
 

Are these two photos from the design being discussed?


Re: Poultry Cars: Guidance on Colors?

Eric Bergh
 

Any thoughts on the colors of these poultry cars? I can only  find one prototype (postcard/baseball card) reference showing a "Live Poultry" car with a Red roof, ends and door and black mesh and bottom rail/running gear.

Models run the game from Ambroid's suggestion of White sides and Dark Green roof/ends with a black lower rail, Northeastern with all white and a black bottom rail, a Mainline kit with Red sides/roof/ends and rail and yellow door, a Brass kit that was ALL yellow, and another brass one that had white sides, a black roof, yellow ends and bottom rail and red trucks! 

Could any of these schemes be real??? Lots of old grey and white photos on the web... but sure hard to figure this out :)
-Eric


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce Griffin
 

Group,

It was suggested that the kits might be more easily available through DesPlaines Hobbies. They do not have this kit on their inventory. Right now I am in a buy mode for kits as my stash seems small enough to finish in a reasonable time. Any other thoughts on a getting a copy? As a B&O modeler I am also looking for a copy of the resin “gon” the B&ORRHS sold, maybe an O-24 class, that has a similar look to the Southern flat car with sides. Thanks in advance.

Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD (not a town with a PO anymore, but a place forever on the PRR NCR)


Re: Universal vertical brake wheel - Gene Green

Gene Green <genegreen1942@...>
 

First, let's clarify some terms.  Vertical wheel, perhaps contrary to logic, refers to a hand brake upon which the hand wheel rotates on a vertical plane.  An example would be the Ajax hand brake on a box car.  Flat cars typically had horizontal wheel hand brakes, that is the hand wheel rotated on a horizontal plane.  I would expect, but do not know, that flat cars in use in 1951 would mostly have horizontal wheel hand brakes.  Which are you seeking?
If you prefer, we can communicate off list at genegreen1942 at yahoo dot com.
Gene Green


Re: Universal vertical brake wheel - Gene Green

Peter Ness
 

HI Chris,

 

Good to hear from you.  Yes, in the earlier topic I found the link to Richards super article, and Richard reached out to me about this, too.  Matter of fact, I searched the STMFC photo albums and found Gene’s awesome gallery of brake wheels also.  Alas, none of these are the Vertical staff type that Gene covered in his 2000 NMRA clinic, which I do not own.  Many thanks for writing.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of bigfourroad
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Universal vertical brake wheel - Gene Green

 

Peter
I don't know whether you have visited yet but my first stop would be Richard Bale's article (in fact his series) on brakes in the Model Railroad Hobbyist November 2013 issue.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2013-11-nov/guide-to-hand-brakes
Chris Rooney


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce Smith
 

Ike,

So you're saying that these flat cars were black through the late 1950s? The directions indicate that the cars were freight car red, and I just finished applying that paint! Especially important would be the paint for my June 1944 era...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce:
Your’e welcome…now let’s get some PRR drawings in circulation!

One of the tidbits that disappeared from the Southern stencil diagrams in the twenties was paint colors. At first they referenced paint by storehouse numbers (I have never seen a complete reference), then they would say “painted per specification”…which may or not have actually been in the spec. Drawing SF-3993 replaced SF-3400, 3411 and SF-3390 on 12-17-57 with the same lettering but it makes no mention of paint colors except to say “roping staple to be painted with Sou. Ry spec No. 145 white stencil paint”.

1957-1960 saw both the standard freight car color change from black to “freight car brown” for open top cars and lettering change from Roman to block style. Revenue house cars were only and always painted freight car brown since before the creation of the SR. The color change came first so Roman (serif) lettering is possible on “red” cars but photos of that combination are very rare.

Factoid…..Not painted at all but the first Big Johns were delivered with Roman lettering. They sat in storage until after the Supreme Court rate case. Per D.W. Brosnan, they were re-lettered in the familiar block style before revenue service (“Big John” came slightly later).

SF-30772, drawn 10-25-67 (same cars, but now only shown as “flats”) shows the block lettering style. The Southern was very particular about car lettering, virtually every car series had its own stencil drawing, there was no system wide “standard” paint or stencil drawing or bulletin. A new drawing would usually not be produced unless the series it showed was due a major rebuilding that would include a re-paint. So, drawings such as SF-30772 show block lettering long after that became “standard”. While many series never had updated stencil drawings made, wreck rebuilds or work at contract shops or outlying RIP tracks created oddball schemes on their own. If all they had available were serif style stencils and freight car red paint, that’s what left the shop.


Undecorated InterMountain kits

Bill Welch
 

This company has some Undec. IM kits: https://www.tmrdistributing.com/

I just ordered three.

Bill Welch


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

George Eichelberger
 

Bruce:
Your’e welcome…now let’s get some PRR drawings in circulation!

One of the tidbits that disappeared from the Southern stencil diagrams in the twenties was paint colors. At first they referenced paint by storehouse numbers (I have never seen a complete reference), then they would say “painted per specification”…which may or not have actually been in the spec. Drawing SF-3993 replaced SF-3400, 3411 and SF-3390 on 12-17-57 with the same lettering but it makes no mention of paint colors except to say “roping staple to be painted with Sou. Ry spec No. 145 white stencil paint”.

1957-1960 saw both the standard freight car color change from black to “freight car brown” for open top cars and lettering change from Roman to block style. Revenue house cars were only and always painted freight car brown since before the creation of the SR. The color change came first so Roman (serif) lettering is possible on “red” cars but photos of that combination are very rare.

Factoid…..Not painted at all but the first Big Johns were delivered with Roman lettering. They sat in storage until after the Supreme Court rate case. Per D.W. Brosnan, they were re-lettered in the familiar block style before revenue service (“Big John” came slightly later).

SF-30772, drawn 10-25-67 (same cars, but now only shown as “flats”) shows the block lettering style. The Southern was very particular about car lettering, virtually every car series had its own stencil drawing, there was no system wide “standard” paint or stencil drawing or bulletin. A new drawing would usually not be produced unless the series it showed was due a major rebuilding that would include a re-paint. So, drawings such as SF-30772 show block lettering long after that became “standard”. While many series never had updated stencil drawings made, wreck rebuilds or work at contract shops or outlying RIP tracks created oddball schemes on their own. If all they had available were serif style stencils and freight car red paint, that’s what left the shop.


Re: Universal vertical brake wheel - Gene Green

bigfourroad
 

Peter
I don't know whether you have visited yet but my first stop would be Richard Bale's article (in fact his series) on brakes in the Model Railroad Hobbyist November 2013 issue.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2013-11-nov/guide-to-hand-brakes
Chris Rooney


Looking to Purchase InterMountain Southern LO. . .

Bill Welch
 

Does anyone here have one of IM's Southern covered hoppers to sell—

their
#48630-01 car # 94009
#48630-02 car # 94028
#48630-03 car # 94031
#48630-04 car # 94063
#48630-05 car # 94114
or
#48630-06 car # 94132

If so please contact me offline at fgexbill(at)tampabay.rr.com substituting @ for (at)

Thank you!

Bill Welch


Re: Poultry Cars: LPT 1023, PTC 1461 & Others

Fran Giacoma
 


Re: Poultry Cars: LPT 1023, PTC 1461 & Others

Ian Cranstone
 

CN also rostered two cars between 1923 and 1934, numbered 149000-149001.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...

 


On 2018-07-10 16:58, Ray Breyer via Groups.Io wrote:

Overall, I suspect that  there were never more than 3,500 poultry stock cars ever built. So there were never very many of these cars around, but if you're modeling a specific time and place they're mandatory to have in your fleet (especially if you're modeling a main line into NYC before WWII).
 


Re: Poultry Cars: LPT 1023, PTC 1461 & Others

Ray Breyer
 

>>Actually,how many poultry were there in service?
>>Armand Premo


When? 1888 to 1950 is a pretty long time span.

But...to mostly answer your question: nobody really knows. The height of poultry cars seems to be right at their crash: 1930. That year National Car Co. bought LPTX and folded it into PPKX, which it had bought three years earlier. The 1930 ORER says that there were 607 PPKX cars and 2200 LPTX cars. The CP also owned TWO cars, for a grand total of 2,809 poultry cars. Numbers dropped significantly from there, until National spun off the last 249 cars in 1944 as PTCX. That company drops off the ORER by early 1951.

But that's only most of the equation. The ACF lot list says that the company built 939 poultry cars between 1899 and 1932, and I have photos of poultry cars built by Pullman, Haskell & Barker, Standard Steel, and Pressed Steel (no quantities from each builder, sadly). And in the pre-WWI period, a few large railroads owned a small number of poultry cars, mostly to feed the NYC to DC metro area. A few examples:

C&EI, 1 car (1915)
DL&W, 48 cars (1915)
LV, 25 cars (1901)
Southern 36 cars (1917)
Swift (Western States Live Poultry Line), 17 cars (1910)
CP, 2 in 1930, 4 in 1945.

Overall, I suspect that  there were never more than 3,500 poultry stock cars ever built. So there were never very many of these cars around, but if you're modeling a specific time and place they're mandatory to have in your fleet (especially if you're modeling a main line into NYC before WWII).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: SOUTHERN 41'6" flat car questions

Bruce Smith
 

Ike,

Awesome!  Thanks!  

These drawings all indicate that the color of the cars was black circa 1926. When did the color change to oxide red? I note that most of these drawings have notations into the 1950s, but no notation of a color change… but then the document indicates that it was superseded by another, but no date is given.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Jul 10, 2018, at 1:55 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


This Google Drive link points to four Southern Railway stencil drawings for 40’ flat cars and gons discussed lately. (Notice the railroad says they apply to flat cars and gondolas (not flat cars with sides).


Southern stencil drawings do not show exact letter and numeral outlines, they are only for lettering placement. There are individual drawings for all letters and numbers to be traced or used to make stencils.

This format changed to a version without so many notes, painting information, etc. by the late 20s. I’ve cleaned up and modified these four to print on tabloid size paper. They were drawn approximately C size but 11”x17” is most useful to store and use on the workbench. Although SRHA has virtually all Sou and CG freight car linens, these images were scanned from microfilm aperture cards at 4,800 dpi. The SRHA freight car drawing spreadsheet, sorted by car number series and drawing numbers runs several hundred (small type) pages.

If anyone is particularly interested (contact me off list), I can upload Southern Specification F-97 for the cars built in 1924. Card List F-75 (drawing index) for those cars has never been found so I’ll included Card Record F-4 for Specification F-18 cars. Both the Specification and Card Lists were issued on standard forms. The Card List includes descriptions of drawings for any freight cars. Items that do not apply to a particular car were simply left blank.

Could anyone with information on how other railroads dealt with specs, drawing indexes and drawings give us some examples?

Ike






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