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Re: Wabash War Emergency Boxcar Part Five

paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Nice work as ever Bill.

On Sunday, July 15, 2018, 7:20 pm, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

When assembling the brake system on a house car my goal is to make it look accurate when viewed from the side and take as a given it is always in shadow. I want to be able to "see through" places where there should be daylight like the chain links, rods, and clevices and that components are generally the correct shape and in the correct place. When viewed from the bottom of the car I don't much care how it looks.

Here are photos of the "AB" brake system on my Wabash WE car, all pretty typical for the way I do things. I do not routinely install a train line but on a whim I did here. I could not find my .015 styrene rod so I used .020. Because of the way I pin the chain to the brake lever and my use of shaved down Tichy turnbuckles as clevices I like using .010 x .060 strip styrene to make the two brake levers so I can use Tester's or Tamiya to secure the clevices and levers together. I chose to use the kit's brake cylinder, reservoir, and AB Valve to which I attached a Tichy Dirt Collector, a part I only recently started installing. I use .012 brass wire for the rods and coincidentally the Tichy turnbuckles are cored for .012 wire. After taking the photos I realized I have not attached NBWs to the Reservoir to make it appear it is bolted in place. I will do this w/Tichy NBWs. While I like the way my chain droops I think I need 2-3 fewer links.

Please let me know if you have questions.

Bill Welch


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 

Bill Welch wrote:

Prompted by Dan's message I ordered multiple sprues for the three Tangent tank cars with their brake wheels.

The set from the 6K tank car is the one to get, the wheels from the GATC 1917 tank repeat the 6K wheels and are much more.

If you haven't already, order some of the lever hand brakes from the ACF gondola while your at it. Equipco and Universal levers and very nice. Now if we could only get a Klasing lever hand brake.

Dan Smith


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 

Bill Welch wrote:

My question is about the wheel rim. The rim on the Tichy "A" set are round or oval but on the "K" set the rims are more or less rectangular w/square edges. Are both Rim shapes prototypical and therefore correct?


Short answer, no. I have a dozen or so nominal 16" wheels and all are U or H section. On U section, all but one have the U opening upward. The only exception in an Ellcon- National Peacock 990 with the U section facing down. Looking from the top, it appears round.

Given the time when the Tichy parts were done, they are reasonable. Even now, tooling correct cross sections is difficult. Kadee uses engineering plastic for their superb wheels but in styrene or ABS, tooling would be difficult. Intermountain has done some good brake wheels in ABS but that is in 22" wheels, RC wheels by and large are excellent. Getting smaller compounds the tooling difficulty.

The same thing about being reasonable applies to many other hand brake wheels. Things are getting better though thanks to efforts by Gene, Sam Clark, Frank and his Minions, Ed Hawkins, just to name a few.

Dan Smith


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Bill Welch
 

Prompted by Dan's message I ordered multiple sprues for the three Tangent tank cars with their brake wheels.

Bill Welch


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Bill Welch
 

Dan Who?

Regarding: "—Are the two Tichy rim variations prototypical or a tooling error?  Don't know.  Both are plausible but the rim of malleable (cast) hand wheels was typically a 'U' cross-section.

Bill, do you mean spoke differences? Gene is correct that by and large U sections were used ( U faces up with drainage holes ), H sections also, see my photo of a NYC wheel on this tread, there are others in H section, both RR specific and manufacturer based. If spokes, I think tooling errors. Second photo closer to what I have in the backyard."

My question is about the wheel rim. The rim on the Tichy "A" set are round or oval but on the "K" set the rims are more or less rectangular w/square edges. Are both Rim shapes prototypical and therefore correct?

(sorry about the bold type)

Bill Welch


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 

were the actual brake wheels used with flat cars and tank cars different than those used on reefers and boxcars.

Depends on time period. Before geared hand brake were widely adopted, no, wheels on house cars were the same by and large as those on tanks and flats.

After the adoption of geared hand brake, wheel size and wheel / gear layout diverged quickly.

Dan Smith


Re: Box Car Door Markings Question

Eric Hansmann
 

N&W cars have a similar white square. Andrew Dow notes in his N&W hopper book that these painted squares denote the area for placards and route cards. Car men didn’t always oblige when racking up the documents. 

I’ve seen similar painted squares on some freight cars in photos from the Teens. Usage seems to fade by the 1920s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:45 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I built a couple of Westerfield CB&Q XM-17/18 kits recently. The decal sheet includes a small white square approximately 5 or 6 scale inches square, and photos show the square painted in the lower center of the wood door. Does anyone know the significance of that square, and what range of years was it applied? A post to the CBQ group went unanswered.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 08:17 AM, Gene Green wrote:

Bill,
First, your photos are always excellent.  Kudos!
To Bill, Gene and all. Yes Bill, can you give me some tips on photos off list, I would like to post more photos with the new IO format.
The horizontal wheel hand brakes are mostly non-existent in HO scale so far as I know.  Good hand brakes for flat and tank cars are sorely needed.  There is more to those hand brakes than merely stabbing a shaft into the deck (flats) or running board (tanks) and putting a 16 inch hand wheel on top.
There are several reasonable to good horizontal wheels that have been done in HO scale plastic. Some are: the RC/SPH&TSOC. SP F-70-7 flatcar has a Superior 566 gear with the associated scalloped edge wheel. The RC, now Intermountain? 42' flatcar has a very well done 16" 6 spoke wheel ( the lower one on Cal Scale set in the first photo posted by Peter Ness ). Three wheels are in the parts set for the Tangent 6K three dome tank car, quite good. These are a few and I will have to go into my notes for the wheel #s. Eric gives a partial list of other horizontal wheels, I have most of these kits and will have to give their real model #s to the list down the road.
 
—Are the manufacturers of the Tichy representations known?  In your photo with "14" visible the spoke pattern of the one on the left resembles early Equipco hand wheels when viewed from above as in your photo.  The Equipco hand wheels were dished, however, and the Tichy hand wheel is not.  Universal had a 5-spoke hand wheel which the right hand wheel 'sort of' represents but . . .   The Universal hand wheel was also dished but not very much.

This would be a good question to ask Don, I believe he is on the list. To the best of my knowledge, Equipco did have a flat, round rim horizontal wheel. I have a scalloped rim Equipco, it is dished.

—Are the two Tichy rim variations prototypical or a tooling error?  Don't know.  Both are plausible but the rim of malleable (cast) hand wheels was typically a 'U' cross-section.

Bill, do you mean spoke differences? Gene is correct that by and large U sections were used ( U faces up with drainage holes ), H sections also, see my photo of a NYC wheel on this tread, there are others in H section, both RR specific and manufacturer based. If spokes, I think tooling errors. Second photo closer to what I have in the backyard.
 
—Are there other accurate Horizontal brake wheels available in 1/87th scale? I know Precision Scale offers some variations—are they Prototypical and if so what do they represent?   I am not at all familiar with what the brass importers might have or have had available so I won't answer.

See above. Most wheels done in brass on import models are fantasy. Some kind of round thing with some kind of spokes, rarely close to a prototype. PSC wheels, usable, not fine.
 
—Are there significant Horizontal Brake wheels that need to be done?  Oh, my goodness, YES!!!!  Your question only asks about hand wheels but I always think in terms of the entire hand brake of which the hand wheel is only one part.  I have made drawings of twenty 15-inch and 16-inch (yes, there were both) hand wheels I either have in my collection or to which I had safe, legal access long enough to take the necessary measurements, make the CAD drawing on site and then check drawing against actual hand wheel.  I've only scratched the surface.  I have a number of hand wheels upon which I find no manufacturer identification, at least none that I recognize as such.  Railroads may have also made their own hand wheels, especially malleable hand wheels.  At least Equipco had a forged hand wheel (stamped) in later years.  I tend to ignore anything built after 1950 so there may well be others. 

I also have wheels with no manufacturer marks of any kind and I have RR specific malleable horizontal wheels. There are RR specific vertical wheels too. NP had several unique geared vertical wheel combinations.
 
Addressing hand wheels only we need:
1 Ellcon-National
4 Equipco
2 Superior (there was a 15- & 16-inch.  One could serve for both, I suppose)
1 Universal
2 URECO (one of which is identical to an Equipco except for the markings)
 
So far as I have determined, Superior and URECO never offered a forged hand wheel.
 
Horizontal wheel hand brake mechanisms needed include:
3 ACF for tank cars (all are quite similar to one another so maybe we could change that to one)
2 Ellcon-National (malleable & forged versions of the same brake)
1 Equipco
3 Superior (one of which is THE GATX tank car hand brake)
2 Universal
2 URECO
 
I think many modelers tend to assume that all horizontal wheel hand brakes were Plate A, that is, chain wound around shaft.  Not the case at all from the late 1930s to the present.  Horizontal wheel hand brakes, just like vertical wheel hand brakes, were GEARED hand brakes.

Gene, you have been preaching of the need for a long time, think some may be starting to notice what is really on cars?
Gene has given a pretty good list of needed types though a couple have been available on specific models. Getting them as parts is the problem.  And Yes, the whole thing, wheel and GEAR.
There are a few earlier geared units, mostly on tank cars, that were used before the 1930s. The Barriger Library photos show some of these early gears if you take the time to notice as you go through photos.
One entry point link:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/35034446102/in/photostream/
Going through will get you started on some types of geared horizontal wheel hand brakes.
Some of the other library collections are useful also.

Dan Smith, please chime in here.  If you, or anyone else, can add to or correct what I have written, please do so.

Dan who?

Regards,
Dan Smith


Box Car Door Markings Question

Nelson Moyer
 

I built a couple of Westerfield CB&Q XM-17/18 kits recently. The decal sheet includes a small white square approximately 5 or 6 scale inches square, and photos show the square painted in the lower center of the wood door. Does anyone know the significance of that square, and what range of years was it applied? A post to the CBQ group went unanswered.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Peter Ness
 

Gene,

Cal-scale parts: These are website photos, maybe someone has the parts in hand and can provide better photos. If you unscrew your eyeballs until you’re cross-eyed, on the plastic version you can barely detect on the lower set it appears the spoke splits in two as it meets the wheel.

Regards,

Peter

 


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 02:33 PM, Dan Smith wrote:
Is this the wheel you have tooled?
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uDcAAOSw0d9bQ38Y/s-l1600.jpg

Certainly looks like it, although we couldn't do the drain holes in the rim.

Dennis Storzek


Re: 3 new CP flat cars

Jon Miller
 

On 7/14/2018 2:32 PM, John Riddell wrote:
Black Cat sells decal lettering for CP flats.

    Didn't find any for the 36' car!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Bill Welch wrote:
Dennis, will the NYC brake wheel be available as a separate part?
No, unfortunately not, its part of the 36' floor, underframe and detail parts group.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Lester Breuer
 

Bill, one of the Cal-Scale brake wheeel sets, 190-289, in photo attached.  Other sets are Kadee and Grandt Line.
Lester Breuer


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 

Damn that new feebay system




Dan Smith


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

 


Re: 3 new CP flat cars

John Riddell
 

The 36' CP flats were number series CP 310000-311348. Built 1912 to 1915. Some 1,187 cars. 
The 42' CP flats were number series CP 335000-336559. Built 1919 to 1929. Some 1,548 cars.
The 46' CP flats were number series CP 300000-300499. Built by CC&F in 1929. 500 cars.

Black Cat sells decal lettering for CP flats.

John Riddell 


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Dave Parker
 

If you go back to the good old (stemwinder) days, there is some evidence to be had in the CBCs, and all of the pre-1920 editions are available for free on-line (and the 1922 edition is/was available from Taplines).  Interestingly, there are if anything more examples of lever-type handbrakes:  Miner, Blackall, and at least four others.  You can also see examples of the tilt-down hand brakes that were used on some drop-end gondolas.

As for horizontal brake wheels, there are a few examples from National Malleable and Dayton Malleable.  Just guessing, but I would bet there were other manufactures as well, but advertising in the CBCs was after all optional, and not all products of the day can be found there.  

My 1931 CBC contains even more diversity, as there is now even more emphasis on power hand brakes, including the horizontal wheel type that Gene mentions.

And throughout, there are several examples of wheels attached to square shafts, although sometimes the squareness does not extend beyond the point of the wheel attachment.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Gene Green <genegreen1942@...>
 

It is quite likely, if we go back far enough, that railroads made their own hand brake parts.  I have no evidence one way or the other but we all know most railroads had the ability to make malleable castings.  By the way, curved spokes and 'dished' wheels were less an attempt to be aesthetically pleasing and much  more concerned with solving some of the problems involved in making such castings.
Gene Green


Re: Horizontal Brake Wheels highlighting Tichy parts

Gene Green <genegreen1942@...>
 

The Kadee hand wheel might be a stand-in for Superior/GATX tank cars.  It is klunky.  It goes way back.
Gene Green

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