Date   
SFRD Reefers in Florida, Loading Tomatoes

rwitt_2000
 

Workers loading tomatoes from hand trolleys into boxcars from warehouse: Leesburg, Fla.

http://digitalcollections.hcplc.org/digital/collection/p15391coll1/id/8700/rec/88
 
I assume the SFRD reefers were moved east to meet the demands of the Florida tomato harvest. The date is 1926 and I assume California already had its own tomato crop.

Bob Witt

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Dave Parker
 

Thanks Tony.  One does learn something new every day.  Was the C&H sugar locally grown (beet sugar), or did it arrive from warmer climes by boat (cane)?

As I qualified, "my understanding is...".  I think it would take quite a bit of digging to unravel how much sucrose was transported nationally in syrup vs  granular form, and it might very well be era-dependent.

Fortunately, the chemical side of it is comparatively clear.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Sunday, July 2, 2017 6:30 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Dave Parker wrote:

 

Sucrose (beet or cane sugar) is indeed a combination of glucose and fructose; it's a chemical combination - a disaccharide -- comprised of one molecule of each.  In the food and beverage industry, they don't get separated until the reach your GI tract.  My understanding is that sucrose is not soluble enough to make transporting it as a syrup economical, so it has historically been shipped to soft drink (or other) plants in granular form.

        This last statement would have come as quite a surprise to both Southern Pacific, which modified a couple of hundred tank cars for "liquid sugar" service (meaning concentrated sucrose) and to C & H Sugar, which shipped it that way from Crockett for decades. C&H of course produced cane sugar. Those were the familiar SP tank cars with the diamond "S" on the dome.
         A former employee told me the "liquid sugar" was fairly thick, or as he said, "goopy." I know nothing beyond that as to the state of that product.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Terminology

Mikebrock
 

Kyle Coble says:

 

Oh man, why in the world would you want to bring this up again? The terminology discussion seems to come up from time to time and to what end. Are we filling out legal documents? Are we on trial or giving a deposition?”

 

Note the STMFC rule:

 

“Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible.”

 

Assuming one pursues the above criteria, a similar goal of seeking as great a degree of accuracy in terminology seems warranted. Just as a term such as “turnout” might have different meaning to different people [ note that two entire chapters are dedicated to “turnout’s” in the book Elements of Railroad Track and Construction, by Wilson, published in 1915  and considerable discussion regarding “turnouts” can be found in the book Freight Terminals & Trains, originally published in 1912 by John Droege which includes turnout design effects on freight cars ], clearly, the term “turnout” is not a model railroad defined term. . OTOH, while the STMFC DOES have a goal of producing “accurate” models AND [ putting on my Head Judge robes { damn hot too } their associated terminology, members will not be prosecuted for failing to generate either “accurate” models or their associated terminology. Thus, if you refer to the paint scheme on a UP box car built in 1950 as being black, you might not be asked your opinion again but you will still be a member in good standing on the STMFC.

 

To emphasize that when someone decides to specify the terminology of freight cars they might be opening a large can of worms, consider UP car #1 [ in 1951 ]. This car is a “covered hopper” to borrow a term from the local operating crew. It’s official AAR designation is “LO”. The official UP class designation is CH-70-1.  What would a a brakeman call it? Probably #1.

So, to conclude, I would speculate that, if you stopped at trackside at the entrance to Cheyenne yard waiting on UP 4-8-8-4 steam engine #4014 to come by in 2019 or later, and you asked someone if the “4000” had left yet, they would likely respond with “4000” what? The point being that you would be well served to use the terminology of your audience. Now, having said that, what department do you associate most with…ops or engineering? I guess that depends on your objectives…building accurate frt cars or running them like the prototype did.

 

Kyle continues with:

“… so as long as the listener or reader understands what the speaker or writer is communicating what on earth does the “proper” term matter?”

 

Well, an analogy might be that, if someone builds a model of UP CH-70-1 but neglects to include the hatches, does it really matter? I mean, the car is lettered for a UP CH-70-1 so it must be one. Right? I would say it depends again upon the objective. I think I’d put hatches on the car and as accurately as possible. Also, I think I’d refer to the CH-70-1 as a covered hopper car as opposed to a gondola.

 

Mike Brock

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

 

Sucrose (beet or cane sugar) is indeed a combination of glucose and fructose; it's a chemical combination - a disaccharide -- comprised of one molecule of each.  In the food and beverage industry, they don't get separated until the reach your GI tract.  My understanding is that sucrose is not soluble enough to make transporting it as a syrup economical, so it has historically been shipped to soft drink (or other) plants in granular form.

        This last statement would have come as quite a surprise to both Southern Pacific, which modified a couple of hundred tank cars for "liquid sugar" service (meaning concentrated sucrose) and to C & H Sugar, which shipped it that way from Crockett for decades. C&H of course produced cane sugar. Those were the familiar SP tank cars with the diamond "S" on the dome.
         A former employee told me the "liquid sugar" was fairly thick, or as he said, "goopy." I know nothing beyond that as to the state of that product.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Dave Parker
 

Tim:

You're mangling this.  Sucrose (beet or cane sugar) is indeed a combination of glucose and fructose; it's a chemical combination - a disaccharide -- comprised of one molecule of each.  In the food and beverage industry, they don't get separated until the reach your GI tract.  My understanding is that sucrose is not soluble enough to make transporting it as a syrup economical, so it has historically been shipped to soft drink (or other) plants in granular form.

Traditional corn syrup (or similar syrups made from wheat, barley sorghum, etc.) start as starch and are enzymatically converted to (mostly) glucose.  Indeed they were shipped by tank car, but I have no idea how extensively.  A. E. Staley only had 88 tank cars in 1940.  Corn sugar is a popular adjunct in the brewing of lousy beer, which may explain why A-B had some tank cars in the 1950s.

Uncombined fructose is a component of fruit sugars (along with glucose), but did not become commercially significant until the 1970s after the Japanese came up with the process to convert glucose to fructose as described in earlier posts.

The original query from Bob Chaparro concerned small soda pop plants in the steam era.  My vote is still "no" on tank cars bringing in the sweetener, but I have not taken the time to delve into the history of the soft drink industry.  Somebody who is contemplating such traffic might wish to do so however.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Sunday, July 2, 2017 5:41 PM, "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Doug

According to what I have been finding online, before the 1980's soda was
sweetened with SUCROSE - which is a mixture of glucose and fructose. So while
ordinary pre-HFCS fructose may not have been mixed directly into soda, it sounds
like fructose was definitely part of the process. Those tank cars were going
somewhere a lot of sweetener was needed.

Tim O'



Tim, Staley has been producing corn syrup since the 1920s. It is High Fructose corn syrup that is used in soft drinks, and it was not perfected to satisfy the American pallet until the early 70s. Your photos are perfectly legit, corn syrup was used in a lot of products, including Karo Syrup (my mother bought it too). But it was not used in soft drinks and tank cars of ordinary corn syrup were not sent to soft drink producers.
 
Doug  Harding


Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Doug,

No, as has been stated earlier, corn syrup from corn starch has been around a long time, and those cars are fine. It is high-fructose corn syrup that has been widely produced since the 1970s, a different and very unnatural product made by a chemical process.


Garth Groff



On 7/2/17 7:39 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
�


Darn! I guess I'll have to throw out those photos of A.E. Staley CORN SYRUP
tank cars from the mid 1950's, or that 1958 Gerstley collection photo of an
Anhauser-Busch GATX (GATC Type 30) CORN SYRUP tank car since evidently no one
used the stuff back then.




High Fructose corn syrup was not used in large quantities in soda pop until 1974. That is the year given by the AE Staley Co, who is said to have created a High Fructose corn syrup in 1971 http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/ae_staley_manufacturing.php
�
1974 is well after the dates of this group’s interest.
�
Doug� Harding

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Tim O'Connor
 

Doug

According to what I have been finding online, before the 1980's soda was
sweetened with SUCROSE - which is a mixture of glucose and fructose. So while
ordinary pre-HFCS fructose may not have been mixed directly into soda, it sounds
like fructose was definitely part of the process. Those tank cars were going
somewhere a lot of sweetener was needed.

Tim O'



Tim, Staley has been producing corn syrup since the 1920s. It is High Fructose corn syrup that is used in soft drinks, and it was not perfected to satisfy the American pallet until the early 70s. Your photos are perfectly legit, corn syrup was used in a lot of products, including Karo Syrup (my mother bought it too). But it was not used in soft drinks and tank cars of ordinary corn syrup were not sent to soft drink producers.
 
Doug�  Harding

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

David Vinci
 

Depending upon the year, the following could be delivered by rail:

Empty cans or if the plant made it's own cans.... preprinted tinplate and blanks for ends
Empty bottles in wooden crates or bottles in palletized loads
Bulk granulated sugar could be in 100# bags in box cars, or in a covered hopper car
Corn syrup in tank cars
High Fructose Corn syrup in tank cars
Maybe paper packaging materials... remember 6 packs of bottles?

I was associated with that business for many years.

Dave Vinci

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Douglas Harding
 

Tim, Staley has been producing corn syrup since the 1920s. It is High Fructose corn syrup that is used in soft drinks, and it was not perfected to satisfy the American pallet until the early 70s. Your photos are perfectly legit, corn syrup was used in a lot of products, including Karo Syrup (my mother bought it too). But it was not used in soft drinks and tank cars of ordinary corn syrup were not sent to soft drink producers.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 6:39 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants

 

 


Darn! I guess I'll have to throw out those photos of A.E. Staley CORN SYRUP
tank cars from the mid 1950's, or that 1958 Gerstley collection photo of an
Anhauser-Busch GATX (GATC Type 30) CORN SYRUP tank car since evidently no one
used the stuff back then.



High Fructose corn syrup was not used in large quantities in soda pop until 1974. That is the year given by the AE Staley Co, who is said to have created a High Fructose corn syrup in 1971 http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/ae_staley_manufacturing.php
 
1974 is well after the dates of this group’s interest.
 
Doug  Harding

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Tim O'Connor
 


Darn! I guess I'll have to throw out those photos of A.E. Staley CORN SYRUP
tank cars from the mid 1950's, or that 1958 Gerstley collection photo of an
Anhauser-Busch GATX (GATC Type 30) CORN SYRUP tank car since evidently no one
used the stuff back then.




High Fructose corn syrup was not used in large quantities in soda pop until 1974. That is the year given by the AE Staley Co, who is said to have created a High Fructose corn syrup in 1971 http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/ae_staley_manufacturing.php
 
1974 is well after the dates of this group’s interest.
 
Doug  Harding

Re: Turnout Terminology

Tony Thompson
 

 It's amusing that many list members find this topic irritating. But please remember, it was list owner Mike Brock who brought it up .

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants (Corn Syrup)

Gary Ray
 

I have a friend that is allergic to anything with GMO corn which nowadays includes nearly everything.  This only affects 2% of the population, but a real problem.  He recently broke out in a rash after eating ice cream at Baskin Robbins. 

 

I have a soda bottling plant planned for my 1926 layout.  I assume there would be either sacks or kegs of sugar.  Any info would be helpful.

 

Gary Ray

Magalia, CA

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 11:02 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants (Corn Syrup)

 



Bob

??? You never heard of KARO corn syrup? My Mom always had some in the kitchen. It's
been available to consumers for a hundred years... Corn syrup is CHEAPER than cane sugar
and that is why it is so widely used in consumer "food" products. Yes production really ramped
up with the massive switch to factory prepared food-like substances.

Tim O'Connor






1. Although corn syrup was invented in 1812 in Russia, developmental work in the United States was carried out in the 1950s and 1960s, with shipments of the first commercial product to the food industry occurring in the late 1960s.
Bob Chaparro






Re: Freda MAIN Train from Barringer Collection

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

John

Looking at this photo at maximum size and then enlarging it, I think you are seeing the window pillars on the other side of the car that happen to appear roughly halfway across the windows on this side. Note the difference in clarity between the two, as the far side ones are viewed through glass.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, 2 July 2017 10:55 p.m.
To: Bruce F. Smith; Paul Catapano; PCL List; STMFC YahooGroup
Subject: [STMFC] Freda MAIN Train from Barringer Collection

 

 

 

Date on the photo is 26 Oct 1942.  Freda was an unloading point for the Desert Training Area on the Santa Fe's Parker District.

 

Note the empty flats to the left and the MAIN train on the right.  Can anyone ID the type of car below the A in FREDA?  It looks to me to have paired windows, making it neither a Pullman sleeper nor any type of ATSF car.

 

John Barry

Lovettsville, VA

Re: Turnout Terminology

John Moore
 

My first post to this list

After seeing all the dialog on the use of Turnout and Switches I have to comment.  I model and research the AT&SF
It has been mentioned that the points are the movable portion and called SWITCH POINTS

In the Chief Way Reference Series of System standard Plans I found the following.
    There are Switch indicators, switch hand throws, color switch lights.  
    There are Turnouts Listed with a frog number such as No. 9 Turnout  (many other listed)
    There is a No 6 1/2 Double Slip Switch (not a Double Slip Turnout). 

In the side track records the terms used are East Turnout and West Turnout

In the Employees Timetable Oklahoma Div  from 1951 the following references are used
  Switches - Maximum Authorized Speed  (listing of locations and speed)
   I  Interlocked Switch
  S  Spring Switch
  Newkirk - Turnouts   Second to First  District
  Chanute  Switch to freight lead
  D.Y. Jct.  Junction Switch
  B.E. Jct  Connecting Switch

The terms turnout and switch are both used in the same document (ETT)

I will use either term to fit the occasion.

I would rather talk about freight cars - ICC RULES (not suggestions) banning arch bar trucks in interchange

John B. Moore, Jr.
Albuquerque



From: "Tom Dill tomedill@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 1:26 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Turnout Terminology

You are totally correct Andy. In my almost 40 yrs on the SP/UP I never recall hearing the term “turnout” used for a track “switch.” Switch was the term for ALL operating crafts, M of W and others. It seems odd to me that so many modelers use the term “turnout.”  Tom Dill



Re: Terminology

Geodyssey
 

Technically correct, but practically incorrect.  This time around, Tony and most of the others got it right.

Even the civil engineers called turnouts switches much (most?) of the time.  And transportation people never call it a turnout.

I'm switching channels- 'till next time.

Robert Simpson
ex-conductor & RR suit including manager for track multiple improvement projects...


---In STMFC@..., <wcfn100@...> wrote :

Here are the track specs.  Notice they are for UP and BNSF.


The section of track is called a turnout.  The switch is the movable part of the turnout.  It's even labeled right in the drawings.

Why this is so hard to grasp, baffles the mind.

Jason Kliewer
Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Douglas Harding
 

High Fructose corn syrup was not used in large quantities in soda pop until 1974. That is the year given by the AE Staley Co, who is said to have created a High Fructose corn syrup in 1971 http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/ae_staley_manufacturing.php

 

1974 is well after the dates of this group’s interest.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 11:24 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants

 

 

Corn syrup tank cars,

Gary McMills- Baton Rouge La. 


----- Original Message -----

 

To:

<STMFC@...>

Cc:

 

Sent:

01 Jul 2017 20:45:40 +0000

Subject:

[STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants


 

I came across this photo of the G. Ferlita & Sons Bottling Plant in Tampa, Florida:

 

http://digitalcollections.hcplc.org/digital/collection/p15391coll1/id/10323

 

It reminded me that during the era of this group, especially in the earlier years, the country was dotted with bottling plants and many were initially served by rail with their own spurs.

 

Here is another example:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12594501174/in/dateposted/?ytcheck=1

 

That got me to thinking about what was delivered to these plants by rail. I could think of several things:

 

Carbon dioxide gas

Cleaning and sterilization chemicals (for equipment and reused bottles)

Cork seals

New bottles

Packaging supplies

Soda concentrate

Water treatment chemicals

 

I assume no sugar was required as that already was in the concentrate for cola drinks, although sugar might be required for citrus-based drinks.

 

And I assume all of this would arrive by boxcar with maybe a reefer used for the concentrate.

 

Does anyone have insight into what actually was received by bottling plants and what kinds of freight cars were used?

 

This information would be useful for an operating session on a layout that had such a bottling plant with its own spur.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

book for sale

ray mueller
 

cars their construction handling and supervison.279 pages many many drawings.$25 + shipping.reply to smuel10363@...

Re: New Tangent Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

Brian:

I don't have any idea what David might have up his sleeve with respect to future offerings of the 1917 GATC radial cars.  But, I did comment on what some likely candidates might (should?) be in my review of a couple of the uninsulated cars that were released last fall:



My comments only pertained to the 8000 gals cars; there were also 10,000 cars that would enjoy some different applications.

I have not delved into the insulated cars at all, so I cannot comment on what might be useful (or forthcoming) in that regard.

Hope this helps,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA







On Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:10 PM, "Brian LaManna brianlamanna@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
List,

I realize that Tangent most likely doesn't want to tip their hand in relation to future runs of this car, but I'm wondering if anyone else might know of other private companies/lessors /lessees that owned these specific cars (besides GATX)?  I appreciated the articles in Railmodel Journal on new model releases (such as the ones authored by R. Hendrickson and E. Hawkins) that had extensive photos  and rosters of the prototypes.  I realize that tank cars are a much more difficult beast to pin down but I'd be grateful for any information on these specific cars.  As well, I'm grateful to Tangent for continuing to offer cars that are applicable for our modelling era(s) and look forward to future offerings including more Type 17 radial course tanks cars.

Cheers,

Brian LaManna/Moncton, NB

From: STMFC@... on behalf of Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]
Sent: July 1, 2017 6:40:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Tangent Tank Cars
 
 
Thanks Tony.  Yeah, I started out commenting on the customer service practices, especially the prompt shipping (AND getting the order right the first time), but quickly shifted gears into the products themsleves.  I also appreciate that David is a regular and contributing member of this list and that he and his partners are willing to listen to our desires for steam era freight cars and then deliver them!  To me, that falls into the Business Practices end of the spectrum. 

This latest ofering is definitely not your grandfather's tank car model.  :)
  


Re: Turnout Terminology

tomedill@frontier.com
 

You are totally correct Andy. In my almost 40 yrs on the SP/UP I never recall hearing the term “turnout” used for a track “switch.” Switch was the term for ALL operating crafts, M of W and others. It seems odd to me that so many modelers use the term “turnout.” Tom Dill

Re: New Tangent Tank Cars

Brian LaManna
 

List,

I realize that Tangent most likely doesn't want to tip their hand in relation to future runs of this car, but I'm wondering if anyone else might know of other private companies/lessors /lessees that owned these specific cars (besides GATX)?  I appreciated the articles in Railmodel Journal on new model releases (such as the ones authored by R. Hendrickson and E. Hawkins) that had extensive photos  and rosters of the prototypes.  I realize that tank cars are a much more difficult beast to pin down but I'd be grateful for any information on these specific cars.  As well, I'm grateful to Tangent for continuing to offer cars that are applicable for our modelling era(s) and look forward to future offerings including more Type 17 radial course tanks cars.

Cheers,

Brian LaManna/Moncton, NB


From: STMFC@... on behalf of Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]
Sent: July 1, 2017 6:40:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Tangent Tank Cars
 
 

Thanks Tony.  Yeah, I started out commenting on the customer service practices, especially the prompt shipping (AND getting the order right the first time), but quickly shifted gears into the products themsleves.  I also appreciate that David is a regular and contributing member of this list and that he and his partners are willing to listen to our desires for steam era freight cars and then deliver them!  To me, that falls into the Business Practices end of the spectrum. 


This latest ofering is definitely not your grandfather's tank car model.  :)