Date   
Re: PFE Express Reefer

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

 
This undated photo was taken on the Katy at an unknown location. The car in this poor quality photo appears to be a PFE express refrigerator car.

     I concur with others, this is definitely a freight reefer.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PFE Express Reefer

Jack Mullen
 

Bob, this appears to be an ordinary freight reefer. Peaked roof, freight trucks, horizontal brake wheel above roofline. Paint looks very grimy but seems to be the standard PFE freight scheme with metal medallion.

Jack Mullen

Re: PFE Express Reefer

Charles Morrill
 

That is a PFE reefer, but not the 50’ express reefer.  Those appear to be freight type trucks under the reefer and no heralds were applied to PFE express reefers as far as I know.  As that is a large city A&P warehouse, that might help locate where on the Katy this is.
 
Charlie
 

From: thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 11:56 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] PFE Express Reefer
 


Here is a photo link from the Barriger Library:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12469195405/in/dateposted/

 

Use the arrow pointing down at the lower right corner to see a larger version of the photo.

 

This undated photo was taken on the Katy at an unknown location. The car in this poor quality photo appears to be a PFE express refrigerator car.

 

Any additional comments?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

PFE Express Reefer

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here is a photo link from the Barriger Library:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12469195405/in/dateposted/

 

Use the arrow pointing down at the lower right corner to see a larger version of the photo.

 

This undated photo was taken on the Katy at an unknown location. The car in this poor quality photo appears to be a PFE express refrigerator car.

 

Any additional comments?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Ed Hawkins
 


On Jun 28, 2017, at 10:30 AM, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Bill wrote: “Also what needs to be done to represent the early cars with no stampings on the end panels of the roof and no impressions on the very top of the ends?”
 
I’ve actually did some studying on this when I was doing a CNW riveted car. Straight end ladders and three points of contact for the right end grab are a couple things modelers miss. Although, when I was staring and comparing photos in a friends PS-1 book the end grabs seem to vary between the three and four point grabs for a point of time – If memory serves.
 
I didn’t know about the welded roofs (CGW 93000). Now I need to pickup one of those old McKeen cars at one of this falls train shows. 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Clark & Bill,
To my knowledge all HO-scale PS-1 models offered thus far have the set of 6 pressed right trapezoids at the peak of the ends. The McKean model had them, and combined with a PS-1 riveted roof represented cars built in 1949. I used this model in some Railmodel Journal articles (March, May, August, October 1993). 

To my knowledge, the PS-1 welded roof used on some of the early PS-1s built from 6-47 to 3-48 has not been offered to date in HO scale. The 3-point mount end grabs were used on production PS-1 box/auto cars built from 1947 through 1949 that including CNW auto cars built 11-49. The change to 4-point mounts applied to 1950 production & later.

Please advise if you find any PS-1 box cars to the contrary.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Re: "PS-0" was Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

S. Busch
 


Dear jt,
 
There is one photo of the 84000 series PM boxcars in "C&O for Progress" paint residing in the on-line archives data base of the C&O Historical Society.  It is photo # COHS - 20870.  It is car #284046, originally PM #84046
 
Here is a link to it::
 
 
Regards --
 
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 9:44 AM
Subject: [STMFC] "PS-0" was Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

 

That's a sharp, in progress model Bill!

I was not able to attend the RPM (I am assuming this presentation was in St. Louis?), but this got me wondering about a couple of things:

I'm building an early P-S welded boxcar, Pere Marquette series 84000-84099 as shown on page 121 of the Million/Paton PM freight car book. This book's single builder photo is the only photo I know of these cars. They were acquired 01/1940, so I am assuming they were eventually painted in a C&O scheme, though no one at that society knows anything about these cars (and the PM society hasn't responded). Their 18 panel sides, early P-S type end and radial roof all combined is a neat departure among boxcars. Anyone here know of any in service photos of these PM/C&O cars?

My second wondering is, RP Cyc is ending publication?

Thanks!

jt burke
Marion, OH
 

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Clark Propst
 

Bill wrote: “Also what needs to be done to represent the early cars with no stampings on the end panels of the roof and no impressions on the very top of the ends?”
 
I’ve actually did some studying on this when I was doing a CNW riveted car. Straight end ladders and three points of contact for the right end grab are a couple things modelers miss. Although, when I was staring and comparing photos in a friends PS-1 book the end grabs seem to vary between the three and four point grabs for a point of time – If memory serves.
 
I didn’t know about the welded roofs (CGW 93000). Now I need to pickup one of those old McKeen cars at one of this falls train shows. 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Ted Culotta
 

Ed (or others),

I haven't seen it asked and, unfortunately, I wasn't able to make Ed's clinic (tough thing trying to run a business at these meets!) Did the Monon cars have PS-1 underframes? I assume yes in order to be considered PS-1 design cars. 

Cheers,
Ted Culotta

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill

Old reference notes for these cars -

 40' SD box cars 10'6"IH

    MONON series 1-500 blt 1947 PS lot 5860

        10p welded 4/4 IDE RP roof 8-rung ladders
        1-250 7p SUP doors, 251-500 YSD-2A 5-5-4 doors

    FCJ #13-14 pp.9-10 Staffan Ehmbom models MONON #1

    CFC V.1 p.36 1972 color photo MONON #10276

    RMJ 10/1999 pp.43-51 Ed Hawkins' annotated roster 1954 photo CIL #338 "Hoosier Line"

    MRR 4/1989 p.47 1947 photo CIL #13

Tim O'



 . . the Monon's 1-500. Imagine my surprise when I learned the model I am working on using an elderly C&BT Shop body, despite its Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy paneled roof, is actually officially designated a PS1.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hwqjqmqnmzy6pgf/AAAA8H2V3VV3PHULCw07xBMua?dl=0

"PS-0" was Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

jt burke
 

That's a sharp, in progress model Bill!

I was not able to attend the RPM (I am assuming this presentation was in St. Louis?), but this got me wondering about a couple of things:

I'm building an early P-S welded boxcar, Pere Marquette series 84000-84099 as shown on page 121 of the Million/Paton PM freight car book. This book's single builder photo is the only photo I know of these cars. They were acquired 01/1940, so I am assuming they were eventually painted in a C&O scheme, though no one at that society knows anything about these cars (and the PM society hasn't responded). Their 18 panel sides, early P-S type end and radial roof all combined is a neat departure among boxcars. Anyone here know of any in service photos of these PM/C&O cars?

My second wondering is, RP Cyc is ending publication?

Thanks!

jt burke
Marion, OH

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Bill Welch
 

Hi Clark, it is my understanding there will be no more volumes of the RP CYC. That does not mean Ed could not do a book based on his material and hope he will.

Something I would like to see is some sort of breakdown of which era of PS1 is represented by the various kits offered through the years. By this I mean which era of PS1 does the InterMountain kit represent, Kadee, Cannonball Car Shops, McKean (or was it Front Range?) Also what needs to be done to represent the early cars with no stampings on the end panels of the roof and no impressions on the very top of the ends? Are there other modifications to be done to model a Mississippi Central PS1 for example?

Bill Welch

Re: Empties in Train Consists

devansprr
 

Nelson, Allen,

Based on the request for more MT data, and the statement that MT's become more significant moving west, I would suggest that era, location, and each RR's freight traffic management plan are huge factors in such statements.

A key factor is where a railroad's principal classification yards were in the system. By the late 1920's the PRR did not reclassify freight at every division point. The PRR was trying to reach 400 miles per day for a loaded freight car by the early 1930's to attract/retain customers, to the point where by the mid-1930's the PRR was scheduling and dispatching freights twice daily between principal destinations - typically about 12 hours apart.

For the PRR during WWII, Enola yard in Harrisburg PA (at the eastern end of the Middle Division and western end of the Philadelphia Division) was the PRR's principle eastern classification yard for loads (both EB and WB). In addition to the connections towards Pittsburgh (via Altoona), and Philadelphia, lines also headed out towards Buffalo, Sodus Point, Wilkes Barre (for routing to New England via the D&H to Albany), down the "port" road towards the Northeast corridor line to Wilmington, DE, Baltimore, and Washington DC (and Potomac yard, the PRR's east coast gateway to the south), and down the Cumberland valley line for interchange with the N&W and B&O in eastern Appalachia towards the interior south.

Conversely, Altoona (110 miles to the west), looks to be the primary classification yard for WB MT's. Traffic studies that note the tonnage and number of loads and empties in every freight train west of Altoona, show 30 WB "arranged freights" (manifest/merchandise) departing Altoona in 24 hours, 15 trains of just empty hoppers (massive EB coal traffic on this line), and 10 extras of 100% non-hopper MT's - typically about 100 cars each. The loads only totaled about 30% of the WB traffic, MT hoppers were 25% of the WB traffic, and non-hopper MTY's were 45% of the traffic. For this location, arranged freights also had large numbers of MT's - the ratios varied a lot, most likely because the arranged freights appear to have been trimmed out with MT's in Altoona to match locomotive tonnage ratings for the WB ruling grade through Horseshoe curve.

Studying the PRR's employee timetables and arranged freight schedules (which included blocking, intermediate yard work, protected connections, allowed consists, etc.) has allowed us to get a very good idea of exactly what was going on. This can help inform fleet balance decisions modeling STMFC's, but more significantly can inform prototypical layout operations.

Answers were not easy to come by, but the research tells a fascinating story about PRR WWII freight operations. BTW, EB freights were over 98% loads!

The data is for a 24 hour period and captures 126 freight trains cresting the PRR's summit at Gallitzen, with 8,727 cars passing through the summit tunnels (EB and WB) during that 24 hour period. Based on average traffic levels published by the PRR for this location, the data appears to be typical for a weekday (it was a Friday.)

Dave Evans

Re: Sugar Beet Loader

Douglas Harding
 

Bob it certainly looks like a beet loader. Sugar beets are raised in the area.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

Re: Sugar Beet Loader

Richard Townsend
 

Yes, that is a sugar beet loader. Wagons or trucks were driven to the top, and they dumped their loads to the side, into gons or hoppers on a spur next to the loader.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Jun 27, 2017 8:34 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Sugar Beet Loader

 
Here is a photo link from the Barriger Library:
 
 
Use the arrow pointing down at the lower right corner to see a larger version of the photo.

A comment under photo says the location is Fromberg, MT, on the Northern Pacific. Is the structure on the right a sugar beet loader or something else?
 
Thanks.
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Sugar Beet Loader

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here is a photo link from the Barriger Library:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12466660973/in/dateposted/

 

Use the arrow pointing down at the lower right corner to see a larger version of the photo.


A comment under photo says the location is Fromberg, MT, on the Northern Pacific. Is the structure on the right a sugar beet loader or something else?

 

Thanks.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Clark Propst
 

Ed Hawkins presentation on the PS1 through the years kept many of us in our chairs for . . .actually I lost track of time. With the ending of Prototype CYC maybe he will put the contents into a book.
Bill Welch
 
So Bill, you’re saying there will be no more RP Cycs? I thought for sure all the effort that went into that presentation would be the next addition. What a same not to publish it! Maybe it could be put as a multi-part article in Craftsman? After all, they run a very limited appeal, but very thorough signal series. BTW I think a box car history would have a much broader appeal.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Re: Empties in Train Consists

Nelson Moyer
 

Eight of twelve trains were manifest trains between Denver and Chicago (one meat train from Lincoln to Chicago) or Chicago to Denver, so they weren’t short haul. Four of those trains didn’t stop in Burlington. The other four trains were locals from Galesburg to Ottumwa or Ottumwa to Galesburg.

Nelson Moyer

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 6:49 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Empties in Train Consists


I think you'll find that the load vs.mt ratio gets worse as the r.r.'s moved west. Your graph of Iowa makes sense to me as it's likely loads are going at least short haul in any direction. But, for example, you will find that a westbound train on the UP out of Council Bluffs, Iowa had mostly empties. I've seen train sheets that had say 1 load, 87 empties. This was quite frequent on the UP, since it was a bridge route. In photos that I've studied (of course you can't see the whole train), an eastbound has maybe an empty gon or flat in front of the caboose, the rest is, say, lumber.
Allen

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 4:09 PM, "Nelson Moyer npmoyer@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


I’ve often wondered about the ratio of loads to empties in mainline consists. While wheel reports are helpful, train sheets provide a wealth of information, at least on the Burlington Route. I summarized the consist data presented in Steve Holden’s article in Burlington Bulletin No. 53 as shown below.

Summary of Freight Traffic Through Burlington, IA
June 29, 1964

Loads In Loads Out Tonnage In Empties In Empties Out Tonnage Out
24 28 3167 37 29 3280
61 61 4955 41 41 4955
70 70 4953 24 24 4953
12 4 440 2 58 1766
9 16 1560 40 51 2502
40 40 3436 40 40 3436
38 38 4660 60 60 4660
36 43 4946 107 118 5671
45 45 5244 83 83 5244
17 19 1192 11 3 1219
53 31 5650 88 77 3856
91 91 5996 39 39 5996

I was surprised at the high percentage of empties vs. loads, especially since it’s the loads that pay the bills. I wonder how typical these data are, especially since they represent a single day. Many of the Westward empties are stock cars and meat reefers, and I guess the Eastward empties are mostly boxcars. I’d be interested in other data on empties if anyone wishes to share.

Nelson Moyer

Re: Neat Gondola Scenes

Charles Tapper
 

Yes. Union, McKeesport Connecting, and Lake Terminal all did. I have a shot of one of these McKeesport Connecting gons on the WP with a pipe load. Union removed theirs from service around 1950 IIRC, but the other two roads kept them in service beyond the group cutoff.

Charlie Tapper


On Jun 18, 2017, at 9:49 AM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Did these get out of the mills into interchange service?

Schuyler

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Neat Gondola Scenes

Bill,

I thought these was a USRA mill gon featured in that first link, then I took a closer look. This is a McKeesport Connecting mill gon! Note the heavy end sill, the grab attachment on the corners, and the towing loop. These details seem to match a gondola used by a few US Steel roads. There is a remnant of a railroad herald near the end of the car that seems reminiscent of the McK Conn logo. Check out the F&C kit on this page. Scroll down a bit for the McKeesport Connecting model.

http://fandckits.com/HOFreight/8140.html

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

for now

On June 18, 2017 at 5:25 AM "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Gons loaded with Pipe

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12329504415/in/album-72157640556301914/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12329946644/in/album-72157640556301914/

Second one needs to be flipped

Bill Welch

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX



Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Ed Hawkins
 


On Jun 27, 2017, at 7:10 PM, Fred_Swa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Did all the CIL cars in the lot get Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy paneled roof?


Fred,
I have photos of 11 different car numbers ranging from low to high in the series. All show 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught ends & Murphy panel roofs.

More compelling, the Monon diagram for box cars 1-500 specifies "Murphy 15 ga. all steel" for the roof and “Dreadnaught” for the ends. Dreadnaught should actually be Improved Dreadnaught. 

The diagram for the next series of cars CIL 501-530, which were PS-1 box cars built in 1949, specifies both roof and ends as “Pullman-Standard."

Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

rwitt_2000
 

My notes indicate we discussed the MONON 1-500 as the first PS-1 sometime in the past ...

"Regardless of the receiving riveted or welded side sheets, the Pullman-Standard lot number list specified them all as "PS-1” in both 40’ and 50’ lengths. According to this list, the PS-1 box car was built by Pullman-Standard well beyond scope of the STMFC to the point that they aren’t easily recognizable as such.

 

The P-S lot list for lot no. 5860 specifies CIL 1-500 as “40’-6” PS-1 box.” The cars were built mid-1947 with 6-47 being the earliest date I’ve found on any car. Pullman identified the cars as PS-1 despite the fact they received Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy roofs from the Standard Railway Equipment Mfg. Co. The Murphy roof is specified on the CIL diagram and verified by numerous photos.

 

The CIL 1-500 box cars were Pullman-Standard’s earliest box cars built in the postwar period with welded side sheets. Given the 10-panel welded sides and PS-1 notation by Pullman, I wonder if these CIL box cars were originally intended to be equipped with ends and roofs of proprietary PS-1 design but that these components weren’t available in sufficient quantity for use on these 500 cars. Rather, the 500 box cars in lot 5873 (LV 62000-62499), also built in mid-1947, did receive Pullman-Standards proprietary ends and roofs. Per the article in Railway Age, Nov. 1, 1947 (p. 33-36), the article designated LV 62000, built in June 1947, as the “First P-S-1 box car built in production.” So the definition of “the first PS-1 box car” may be considered disputable depending on the source. 

 

Interestingly, Railway Age identified these cars as “P-S-1” throughout the article with an extra hyphen that Pullman-Standard didn’t typically use. - Ed Hawkins

 

The Monon cars are from June 1947.  They are relatively easy to model with a Branchline car and a chisel blade to get the side rivets off.  As an aside, the boys from PS would come and look at the Monon cars that had been damaged.  A common issue was the welds 'popping' off their backing members, especially at the top edge. - Mike Aufderheide

 

Certainly the Pullman-Standard documentation that Ed Kaminski used for his book on P-S identified all riveted- as well as welded-side box cars (such as the C&NW riveted cars) as PS-1 design. I think the entire car design was the intent of the PS-1 designation, including underframe and the joining of underframe to ends and sides. That would mean that a buyer's choice of riveted sides was a detail.  - Tony Thompson 

 

According to my notes, they were AAR design box cars. I didn't know any had PS roofs as my notes say they had rectangular panel roofs. Monon #1, #86, #227, #289 definitely had Murphy roofs and not PS bowtie roofs  - Tim O'Connor"


Bob Witt