Date   
Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Dave Parker
 

I was intrigued by Tim O'Connor's proposal that most newsprint came from Canada, and would help justify the presence of Canadian cars in the border states and perhaps elsewhere during the steam era.  As is my habit, I went looking for data the would help support or refute that notion.

The annual ICC freight commodity statistics included a separate tabulation for newsprint (as well as several other paper/cardboard categories), and included data for the U.S., by region, and by railroad.  I looked first at the B&M as it had trackage in three border states as well as an obvious urban center needing large quantities of newsprint.  In 1935, the B&M transported 431,000 tons of newsprint (46 carloads per day), virtually all of which originated on a foreign road.  Of that, 40% was terminated on the B&M (i.e., Boston), while 60% was bridge traffic that went on to points south and west.

I then looked at the roads most relevant to Canadian traffic:  the CN in New England, the CP in VT and ME (separate listings), and the CV (an obvious bridge line with the CN).  In short, the numbers just didn't add up, plus the Canadian lines were dominated by bridge traffic (although I suppose that could reflect reporting conventions when cars crossed the border).

So, I took a peek at the Maine railroads.  To my surprise, the BAR (the potato railroad) transported 281,000 tons, all of which originated on the BAR and was handed off to another road.  The MeC moved 368,000 tons, about half of which originated (but not terminated) on the MeC, and half of which was bridge traffic.  The numbers do not add up in a fully satisfying way, suggesting that some quantity of the newsprint was handed off the CN and/or CP and transported north. They further suggest that much, maybe most, of the newsprint carried by the B&M in 1935 came from mills in Maine, not Canada. 

I don't think this analysis necessarily diminishes the importance of Canadian boxcars on a border railroad like the B&M, but it does seem to gibe with Dave Evans' assertion that we may need to look beyond forest products when thinking about imports from our northern neighbors.

I suppose the next exercise could be to look at the lumber statistics, but I really need to work on some models, including several CP/CN boxcars in the queue.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA








On Friday, June 23, 2017 3:11 PM, "devans1@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
All,

Looking at the 1946 data from Mr. Gilbert, I noticed that only 3 of the SB CN/CP cars carried paper. 2 cars carried tobacco (There is still Tobacco farming today on the north shore of the great lakes.) Perhaps that was a movement unique to the east coast since in those days I believe the Richmond, VA area was the cigarette capital of North America (so the move was more like a captive service). But car loads of soap, syrup, salt, cereal and apple sauce were also recorded, along with 4 SB carloads of "Merchandise", so we shouldn't fall into the trap of viewing Canada as an exporter of only refined wood products.

While Alexandria was the east coast gateway to the south for North-south traffic, with Canadian traffic making up 3% of the XM's, for that era and location, CP and CN should not be discounted. For an east-west line in the deep south - obviously it will be less. Near the northern border, much more (CN & CP were 13% of the North American boxcar fleet in 1943.)

Dave Evans


Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Armand Premo
 

In December of 1950 the following number of box cars were on Rutland Train # 9: NYC193 ,CN 125 PRR 9, AT SF,65,Milw and CNW 40 each CPR,39  lesser numbers for the balance   of the train,. The Rutland had 29 .If interested, I'll have numbers for your favorite road(s)  ..Armand Premo

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

devansprr
 

All,

Looking at the 1946 data from Mr. Gilbert, I noticed that only 3 of the SB CN/CP cars carried paper. 2 cars carried tobacco (There is still Tobacco farming today on the north shore of the great lakes.) Perhaps that was a movement unique to the east coast since in those days I believe the Richmond, VA area was the cigarette capital of North America (so the move was more like a captive service). But car loads of soap, syrup, salt, cereal and apple sauce were also recorded, along with 4 SB carloads of "Merchandise", so we shouldn't fall into the trap of viewing Canada as an exporter of only refined wood products.

While Alexandria was the east coast gateway to the south for North-south traffic, with Canadian traffic making up 3% of the XM's, for that era and location, CP and CN should not be discounted. For an east-west line in the deep south - obviously it will be less. Near the northern border, much more (CN & CP were 13% of the North American boxcar fleet in 1943.)

Dave Evans

Re: Nicely illustrated weathering tips

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Hi Tim:

I was impressed with the weathering article and watnted to print it for my file.  My lack of technical skills is well documentrd.  When I attempted to print it it was 67 pages.  Onr printed and about four blanks came out.

Any suggestions?

Bill



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 6/20/17 1:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: weathering@..., stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Nicely illustrated weathering tips

 


http://www.modvid.com.au/html/body_travis_handschug.html

Tim O'

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Rob M.
 

At least four Canadian road shots in the 1948 CNJ The BIG little Railroad 26 minute promo film from1948:

 

A single CN single sheathed car in a nondescript moving train consist . 

 

A single CN single sheathed car in a siding on the main line east of Westfield (Garwood/Cranford area ) with at least three other cars including a large herald SSW "Cotton Belt Route" double sheathed car.

 

At least 2-3 CN single sheathed boxcars and a single maple leaf herald all steel car in a moving train shot on the Newark Bay lift bridge.

 

A single CP 248xxx steel box in a nondescript moving train consist.

 

My video isn’t that good quality as to make out the actual road numbers or the car types but there are at least these four shots if not more.


Rob Mondichak



Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

lstt100
 

Following from my Car Service Division records concerning handling of Canadian ownership equipment.

"Special Car Order 36 issued in 1938 and broadened by later amendments suspends operation of Car Service Rule 2 as to Canadian National and Canadian Pacific box cars received from western lines and released on certain eastern roads connecting with the CN and CP at junctions east of Lake Michigan so that such cars may be returned in home route to the Canadian lines at western interchange points." This from 1945 Car Service Division reports.

Code of Federal Regulations Title 19 1945 (Customs duty 317, later part 123) governed the use of Canadian equipment. "On return trip....other equipment may be used in such trains or for such local traffic as is reasonably incidental to its economical and prompt return to the country from whence it entered the United States".

Once unloaded in US, Canadian cars were handled in accordance with Rule 2 or Rule 3 of Car Service Rules depending on its location and were treated the same as a US owned car.  At various times between 1940 and 1960 different Car Service Division "requests" and ICC "Service Orders" applied, normally with specific time limits.

June 14, 1946 Car Service Division "Mailgram" issued to US transportation officiers: "Canadian cars may only be loaded to or substantially in the direction of home and that they should not be delayed excessively while held for prospective loading".

Sept 22, 1947 Car Service Division "Circular" issued: "Requesting railroads to stop the misuse of Canadian boxcars account over 8,000 excess cars in US.

The "Circular" apparently did not hold enough "force".

ICC issued "Service Order No. 784 effective from Oct 23, 1947 until Nov. 30, 1947 requiring all US railroads shall send home empty at once all boxcars of Canadian ownership".

It should be noted, ICC "Service Orders" were legal and binding and had the authority of law.  Fines could be assessed for non-compliance.

Car Service Directives, Mailgrams, Circulars and Special Orders were not mandatory.  There were NO fines for non-compliance.

Outside the scope of the group, CSD's and Special Orders become "Force of law on Oct 1, 1971".  After this date non-compliance allow fines to be assessed.

Dan Holbrook

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Jon Miller
 

On 6/22/2017 4:06 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
That also removed one of two facilities cerified in the West to dispose of railroad ties by burning.

    Unless they are cut up removing them why burn them.  At a local lumber yard in N CA they are going for $40 a tie.  Used for fence posts.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

np328
 

Not looking to argue, just looking for enlightenment, the SCO No. 59 I posted in the files,

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/files/Canadian%20Cars%20on%20US%20rails%20%20/

 does appear to allow reloading homeward, points 1 through 4, within the guidelines stated.

(Point 3 for instance, anywhere a Canadian car is found on the CNW/Omaha can be loaded to Duluth. This would cover the Milwaukee - Chicago area. From the Twin Cities to Duluth, on the NP, yes. From Sioux Falls, SD to Duluth on the GN, yes.)

 I would think that all along the yes, northern Tier, the same could be done.  Am I reading that SCO wrong? It appears to be allowed.  I say this with full respect for the work you and Mr. Gilbert did.               

                                                                                                                Jim Dick – St. Paul

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Bill Decker
 

Exactly right Paul (of course)! 

 Publishers Paper in Newberg, OR (25 mi SW of Portland on the SP Westside Line) was owned by the LA Times and also supplied the Denver Post.  Fairly major metropolitan dailies... 

Sadly, the successor corporation owning that mill closed it late in 2015.  That also removed one of two facilities cerified in the West to dispose of railroad ties by burning.  OK that is in the future (though it DID produce steam!).  I wonder if SP succeeded in capturing the rail haul, including that to Denver via Ogden, perhaps by way of the  Modoc?

Bill Decker
McMinnville, OR

Re: Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

David,

 

                Will you be giving a similar presentation in Cocoa Beach next January?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:11 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

 

 

Gentlemen,

FYI for any of you headed to STL RPM this weekend, I will be presenting a clinic on the history on the formative years of General American with focus on the 1917-design tank car series.  The title is "100 Year Old Crude Oil Technology: General American's 1917-Design Tank Cars."  

Part of the presentation will include a "slide show" of roster shots of various 1917-design tank cars covering builder photos to in-service photos taken in the 1960s, including tank body types not released by Tangent.

To learn a little more, you can read the Agenda page here on our blog:  http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/blog/

See (some of) you there!

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models

Re: Resin Car Works

culturalinfidel9@...
 

I'm looking for a few of these kits, so if anyone has one or more that they're willing to part with, please let me know.

Thanks,
Dan Miller

Re: Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Brian LaManna
 

Hi Dave and List,

I made a similar request on Tangent's Facebook site and David responded that they might put an abridged version of the presentation online. 

(Fingers crossed for an announcement tomorrow of something I can use from them)

Cheers,

Brian LaManna/Moncton, NB
From: STMFC@... on behalf of 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC]
Sent: June 22, 2017 3:47:31 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars
 
 

Sounds really interesting… but I’m ~1500 miles away. Any chance of getting ac copy of the presentation?

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:11 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Gentlemen,

FYI for any of you headed to STL RPM this weekend, I will be presenting a clinic on the history on the formative years of General American with focus on the 1917-design tank car series. The title is "100 Year Old Crude Oil Technology: General American's 1917-Design Tank Cars."

Part of the presentation will include a "slide show" of roster shots of various 1917-design tank cars covering builder photos to in-service photos taken in the 1960s, including tank body types not released by Tangent.

To learn a little more, you can read the Agenda page here on our blog: http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/blog/

See (some of) you there!

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Dave Nelson
 

Sounds really interesting… but I’m ~1500 miles away. Any chance of getting ac copy of the presentation?



Dave Nelson



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:11 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars





Gentlemen,

FYI for any of you headed to STL RPM this weekend, I will be presenting a clinic on the history on the formative years of General American with focus on the 1917-design tank car series. The title is "100 Year Old Crude Oil Technology: General American's 1917-Design Tank Cars."

Part of the presentation will include a "slide show" of roster shots of various 1917-design tank cars covering builder photos to in-service photos taken in the 1960s, including tank body types not released by Tangent.

To learn a little more, you can read the Agenda page here on our blog: http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/blog/

See (some of) you there!

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Dave Nelson
 

Come on guys… it’s not so hard to figure this out: Canadian boxcars were not free rolling cars._They were limited to a couple points of entry to the US Rail net so they had to show up there on the inbound and most likely returned via that same location in higher  numbers.  Once they got to the first yard in the US they would begin to disperse.  After reaching their destination in the US and being unloaded they were not allowed to pick up any loads for other points in the US.  They could carry a load back to Canada.  Per Canada’s own collection of statistics on average (post war years) only 10% (give or take a bit) of all boxcar loadings in Canada were destined for the US._

Given the above it stands to reason they are simply not the same as US boxcars for the purpose of spotting foreign road boxcars.  No amount of but the northern tier, newsprint, mouse in beer bottle theories will change that.

 

OTOH if you want to think of them somewhat like gons or perhaps tankcars, you’re going to be closer to the mark as those cars were not really free rolling cars.  Which is to say when it comes to Canadian boxcars, if your interest is far from one of those few points of entry I suggest you follow the 10% lading guideline: you’ll get a tad less than 1% probability for either CP or CN.  If that is not right for you and you choose to use the notion they’re more like gons or tankcars because you’re modeling the CV, you can do whatever you damn well want and AFAIK nobody will have any basis to criticize your decision because nobody (AFAIK) has got a large enough sample size to propose a reasonable alternative theory for you to follow.


Dave Nelson

The Nelson half of the Nelson-Gilbert theory.

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Paul Koehler
 

Tim:

 

There might be a few exceptions, The Los Angeles Times owned Publishers Paper in the Portland area.  They produced all of the news paper for their needs.  Half was shipped by rail and half was shipped by barge.

 

Paul

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 8:58 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

 

 


I found this very interesting graphic that shows that in the 1950's a huge
percentage of Canadian newsprint was EXPORTED - and I'm guessing that most of
it went to the United States.

https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb03/1957/img/acyb03_19570518-eng.jpg

Six million tons at 50 tons per carload - that's 120,000 car loads or 328 loads
per day exported - if that all went to the USA, it would be the DOMINANT source
of newsprint used in the USA! Shipping distance would appear to be irrelevant
in this case. :-)

Newspaper (as we know it) was invented in Quebec, Canada. Most paper made in
New England that I know about was/is not newsprint. And I think most paper made
in Washington and Oregon and Wisconsin is not newsprint either. Newsprint was only
a small percentage (20%-25% ?) of total paper production in the 1950's.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study.  Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Tim O'Connor
 


I found this very interesting graphic that shows that in the 1950's a huge
percentage of Canadian newsprint was EXPORTED - and I'm guessing that most of
it went to the United States.

https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb03/1957/img/acyb03_19570518-eng.jpg

Six million tons at 50 tons per carload - that's 120,000 car loads or 328 loads
per day exported - if that all went to the USA, it would be the DOMINANT source
of newsprint used in the USA! Shipping distance would appear to be irrelevant
in this case. :-)

Newspaper (as we know it) was invented in Quebec, Canada. Most paper made in
New England that I know about was/is not newsprint. And I think most paper made
in Washington and Oregon and Wisconsin is not newsprint either. Newsprint was only
a small percentage (20%-25% ?) of total paper production in the 1950's.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study.  Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Rob M.
 

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study. Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Tim O'Connor
 


Chuck, although that seems very logical, one must be VERY aware that a TARIFF
on freight from BC to California allowed multiple railroads to solicit loads for
that route, and it was the SHIPPER who chose which solicitations to employ.

So, for example, a load via the SI might be routed to Portland, and from there
the SP to California. Or the GN might turn a car over to the UP in Portland, and
from there it could go to Salt Lake and then via the LA&SL to southern California.
And so on. Traffic did NOT always travel via the shortest route. The SP for example
routed vast amounts of Oregon lumber via Texas (Sunset Route) and St Louis (Cotton
Belt) to the midwest and east coast - a very lengthy route but SP got to keep the
lion's share of the revenue. And no doubt lots of shippers' agents got treated to
excellent 3-star restaurant dinners on the SP's dime in order to win that traffic.

Tim O'Connor




It would have been much less likely to see them on UP trains through Tacoma because the UP stopped at Seattle, while the GN and NP both continued to British Columbia.  UP would have picked up Canadian cars via the Spokane International, routed to Pendleton, OR, then likely to Salt Lake before going to California via southern Nevada. 

Chuck Soule

Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Tim O'Connor
 


At 3% it's not that far off from the binomial random distribution, based on Tony's
mention of an average of 16,000 Canadian box cars south of the border. :-)

As you move north from Alexandria, Canadian newsprint cars would definitely swell the
percentages - newspapers in DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Jersey and New York used
a LOT of newsprint every day! Even in the 1990's Conrail moved solid trainloads of
Canadian paper every day south from Montreal.

Tim O'Connor




Mr. Gilbert's fall of 1946 Southern wheel reports passing through Alexandria, Va show 26 CN and 7 CP XM's out of 1168 XM's recorded. Pretty much an even NB/SB split (17/16) - only 3 of 17 NB's were MTY. Only six US roads outnumbered the combined CN/CP presence - PRR (131), SOU (114), NYC (102), B&O (61), ATSF (52), and MILW (47).

Only one non-XM Canadian car was spotted - a NB CN hopper loaded with coal. Wonder what it carried southbound...

So the CN/CP XM presence may not have been per the G-N weighting, but they outnumbered many roads, at that location, over that period. Your era/location may vary...

Dave Evans

Explosives and other placards

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

There was a recent discussion on the history of warning placards for explosives, etc. attached to cars. There is a report from an ARA meeting in November 1908 listing the recommendations of a special committee on car cards at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433012632661;view=1up;seq=401
Evidently there was some state legislation under which car cards
would be removed as advertising. The agreed recommendations included -

Special Placards.—These shall be such as are required by the regulations for the transportation of explosives formulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission and the regulations for the transportation of inflammable articles and acids prescribed by the American Railway Assn., and are to be of the size as therein described. They shall be used, be of the text and be attached to the cars as prescribed by said regulations. [There is also reference to the transportation of explosives and the ICC Regulations on the following page]

The meeting also resolved -
That railway companies and other car owners be and are hereby requested to publish official information respecting their car equipment in the Railway Equipment Register; and information respecting line clearances and the restrictions of
cars in passenger service in the Railway Line Clearances, in order that ready references for authentic information on these subjects may be within reach of all railroad officials.

In addition, the meeting covered the standard marking of the length of flat cars, acceptance of the telephone in preference to the telegraph for blocking and dispatching trains, the number of copies of interchange reports and amendments to the per diem rules.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ