Date   

Re: PFE Express Reefer Color

Tim O'Connor
 

Ray

If you can find them - CHAMP HX-11 and CHAMP BRH-340


On 2/28/2021 1:22 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Ray Carson wrote:

I currently have a Walthers GACX express reefer that I was doing some modifications to match it with the PFE prototype. The problem is I got carried away and damaged the paint and some of the wood sheath details on the sides. Even though express reefers aren't technically considered freight cars but passenger cars, I was wondering if the PFE cars were actually dark olive like the UP and SP heavyweight cars or just the general Pullman green.

Dark Olive Green.

Also what are some good PFE decals to go with these cars? The Tichy decals are rather off as I look at them.

Not sure what is currently available. 

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Shortening Kadee Running Board

Tim O'Connor
 


Garth if you have not seen the MOLOCO 50 foot Morton running boards, you should
take a look at them. They have the correct rolled bottom flange found on none of the other
etched or plastic Morton running boards I've seen. (I admit I have not seen the Kadees.)
Plano simulated the flange on some of their covered hopper running boards - you glue the
flange precisely to the bottom of the edges of the rb.

Tim O'


On 2/27/2021 6:21 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Tony and Bruce,

I would love to go the other way and lengthen a Kadee 40' Morton running board to 50'. Most Western Pacific/Sacramento Northern/Tidewater Southern 50' PS-1s had Morton running boards, and I have a mess of these I would like to be more accurate.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Bulk sugar loading/unloading was Red Owl

Craig Zeni
 

In 1949 sugar was shipped in boxcars in bags, barrels or bulk. The first airslide hopper was patented in 1953, again after the date of the Red Owl data. Attached is a photo of bulk sugar begin unloaded from a boxcar.

Great photo!  Two questions come to mind - how was the sugar loaded?  Were roof hatch box cars seen in this service?

Thanks!

Craig Zeni
Cary, NC
Despatched from my infernal Android


Re: PFE Express Reefer Color

Tony Thompson
 

Ray Carson wrote:

I currently have a Walthers GACX express reefer that I was doing some modifications to match it with the PFE prototype. The problem is I got carried away and damaged the paint and some of the wood sheath details on the sides. Even though express reefers aren't technically considered freight cars but passenger cars, I was wondering if the PFE cars were actually dark olive like the UP and SP heavyweight cars or just the general Pullman green.

Dark Olive Green.

Also what are some good PFE decals to go with these cars? The Tichy decals are rather off as I look at them.

Not sure what is currently available. 

Tony Thompson




Re: Red Owl warehouse

leakinmywaders
 

I can't speak to changes in sugar shipping economics between the 1940s and 1960s, but I can offer evidence that in 1969, from a study of conductors wheel reports, the NP was shipping plenty of loads of bagged sugar from Great Western Sugar in Billings, MT to St. Paul and Minneapolis for interchange with other railroads.  I can add that in that year,  numerous empty NP boxcars and bunkerless reefers passing eastbound through Jamestown, ND were consigned for Great Western Sugar in Billings, MT.  Empty cars consigned for Holly Sugar, and the American Crystal sugar plant in Drayton, ND also appear in Jamestown NP wheel reports, but in smaller numbers. 

Chris Frissell 
Polson, MT


PFE Express Reefer Color

Ray Carson
 

Hello,

I currently have a Walthers GACX express reefer that I was doing some modifications to match it with the PFE prototype. The problem is I got carried away and damaged the paint and some of the wood sheath details on the sides. Even though express reefers aren't technically considered freight cars but passenger cars, I was wondering if the PFE cars were actually dark olive like the UP and SP heavyweight cars or just the general Pullman green.

Also what are some good PFE decals to go with these cars? The Tichy decals are rather off as I look at them.

Thanks.


Re: Munising Ry. Co. 42' Flatcar- what could this part be?

Ray Carson
 

It looks like it could be a lever related to the brake. The car is early 1900s, so it COULD be related to the brake. Somebody here may have a better the answer.


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Douglas Harding
 

To follow up on Jim’s comments. American Crystal Sugar was a sugar beet processor. They had sugar beet plants in Mason City IA and Chaska MN in 1949, the year of the shipment data Clark has shared. Their first plant in the Red River valley was not built until 1948 at Moorhead, the one in Crookston was built in 1954. Prior to that sugar beets from the Red River area were shipped to the plant in Chaska. The Red River valley became a major source of sugar beets as northern Iowa switched from sugar beets to soybeans in the 40s, esp after WWII.

 

In 1949 sugar was shipped in boxcars in bags, barrels or bulk. The first airslide hopper was patented in 1953, again after the date of the Red Owl data. Attached is a photo of bulk sugar begin unloaded from a boxcar.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 8:01 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Red Owl warehouse

 

Not to throw the Red Owl warehouse topic off or head off in a tangent, however with all due respect to "where the sugar comes from” regarding the Hopkins MN warehouse; 
   Sugar is (1) a bulk commodity, (2) it is publicly traded, and should it be cane or beet (3) it is grown in many areas around the US.

Sugar costs are low, low enough that in that the US sugar industry, price supports exist to maintain US sugar independence.  

And because of all of the above - shipping transport costs quickly assume a great importance to final prices when all other costs tend to be either low or stable across large areas. 
Here we have both.

      I dislike greatly the mixing of data across eras, and am aware of this lists cut-off date of 1960, something I very strongly support. However ask that the map introduced by this link be looked at and ask yourself the question; with all these sugar processing options closer to the Hopkins, MN Red Owl warehouse, just south of the Twin Cities or in the Red River Valley, why would one go into MT?             Billings is closer (550-600 miles) to the population center of Denver, CO and seems a more logical destination.  (Wasn't there a large baking consortium there?)


https://sugaralliance.org/us-sugar/sugars-coast-to-coast-reach

  Hold your cursor over the dots on the map for more information.  

    And of the map listings for processing plants – Please, Google up the data of the plant you are interested in locally to see its history and build date. Some plants listed on the link did not exist in the STMFC era, which is why again, I dislike mixing data across extended time frames.

 

Chaska, MN to Hopkins, MN – possibly 20 miles and a single line shipment if M&StL has rights to switch the Red Owl Warehouse. (Chaska had a sugar processing plant that opened in 1906 and operated well through the STMFC era.)

East Grand Forks area to Hopkins - ~300 to 350 miles and if served by GN as the Sanborn map elsewhere shows tracks of this railroad nearby and GN has reciprocal switching rights into this plant off its Hutchinson branch, and then it would also be a single line shipment .
Via NP about the same mileage as NP and M&StL looked to each other as friendly connections. (East Grand Forks plant – opened 1923, Moorhead, MN – 1948, Crookston – 1954)  

Sidney, MT to Hopkins, MN – 600+ miles. 

East Billings to Hopkins - ~ 800 miles NP/Milwaukee (the Milwaukee is local to Hopkins Red Owl warehouse.) Or ~850 miles via NP/M&StL. 

 

I do have revenue freight classified tables for 1953 of my studied railroad however looking, Sugar, syrup, molasses, and candy - are all given in an aggregate figure under manufactured products and as such, not a lot of help. 

 

For more on sugar and sugar price supports look here:

 https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/sugar-sweeteners/background/     Sugar cane listed one third down, beets one half down

                                                                Jim Dick – St. Paul, MN                                                                            


Re: Red Owl warehouse

np328
 

After just posting this, I see Tony's reference to California sugar processing. 

Tony, on the Coast to Coast map I posted and regarding your post, the San Rafael, CA dark dot lists just  CO products. 
 Any backstory here in the STMFC era?        thanks,  Jim Dick   


Re: Red Owl warehouse

np328
 

Not to throw the Red Owl warehouse topic off or head off in a tangent, however with all due respect to "where the sugar comes from” regarding the Hopkins MN warehouse; 
   Sugar is (1) a bulk commodity, (2) it is publicly traded, and should it be cane or beet (3) it is grown in many areas around the US.

Sugar costs are low, low enough that in that the US sugar industry, price supports exist to maintain US sugar independence.  

And because of all of the above - shipping transport costs quickly assume a great importance to final prices when all other costs tend to be either low or stable across large areas. 
Here we have both.

      I dislike greatly the mixing of data across eras, and am aware of this lists cut-off date of 1960, something I very strongly support. However ask that the map introduced by this link be looked at and ask yourself the question; with all these sugar processing options closer to the Hopkins, MN Red Owl warehouse, just south of the Twin Cities or in the Red River Valley, why would one go into MT?             Billings is closer (550-600 miles) to the population center of Denver, CO and seems a more logical destination.  (Wasn't there a large baking consortium there?)


https://sugaralliance.org/us-sugar/sugars-coast-to-coast-reach

  Hold your cursor over the dots on the map for more information.  

    And of the map listings for processing plants – Please, Google up the data of the plant you are interested in locally to see its history and build date. Some plants listed on the link did not exist in the STMFC era, which is why again, I dislike mixing data across extended time frames.

 

Chaska, MN to Hopkins, MN – possibly 20 miles and a single line shipment if M&StL has rights to switch the Red Owl Warehouse. (Chaska had a sugar processing plant that opened in 1906 and operated well through the STMFC era.)

East Grand Forks area to Hopkins - ~300 to 350 miles and if served by GN as the Sanborn map elsewhere shows tracks of this railroad nearby and GN has reciprocal switching rights into this plant off its Hutchinson branch, and then it would also be a single line shipment .
Via NP about the same mileage as NP and M&StL looked to each other as friendly connections. (East Grand Forks plant – opened 1923, Moorhead, MN – 1948, Crookston – 1954)   

Sidney, MT to Hopkins, MN – 600+ miles.  

East Billings to Hopkins - ~ 800 miles NP/Milwaukee (the Milwaukee is local to Hopkins Red Owl warehouse.) Or ~850 miles via NP/M&StL.  

 

I do have revenue freight classified tables for 1953 of my studied railroad however looking, Sugar, syrup, molasses, and candy - are all given in an aggregate figure under manufactured products and as such, not a lot of help.  

 

For more on sugar and sugar price supports look here:

 https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/sugar-sweeteners/background/     Sugar cane listed one third down, beets one half down

                                                                Jim Dick – St. Paul, MN                                                                             


Re: Monon 1937 AAR boxcar

James Brewer
 

Very nice looking car Dick; weathering is great.  Clark Propst recently did one of these in HO scale; I obtained decals from Mont Switzer to do one as well and even discovered I had an undecorated square corner Red Caboose kit in my stockpile.

Jim Brewer


Re: Reweigh dates on freight cars

Fran Giacoma
 

Thanks Tony for confirming what I thought.  Will make sure I do not have any overdue cars.

Fran Giacoma


Re: Monon 1937 AAR boxcar

O Fenton Wells
 

Great looking car, well done
fenton

On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 6:28 PM Richard Scott <rlscott5709@...> wrote:
Mont Switzer's 2017 Chicagoland RPM presentation motivated me to model a Monon boxcar.  O-scale CIL 9157 began as an Intermountain kit.  I scratchbuilt a new roof walk for it from styrene strips, and I replaced some of the kit's more fragile styrene parts with brass equivalents.  I painted the car with Polly Scale and MicroLux acrylics, and lettered it with Protocraft decals.

The Monon had 450 of these 1937 AAR boxcars, with road numbers 9000-9449.  Pullman-Standard built them in 1941 and 1942, and all rode on National B-1 trucks.  O-scale B-1s are hard to find so I "scratch-bashed" these from 1970s-vintage Atlas Bettendorf trucks.  The Atlas side-frames were molded from high-impact polystyrene so the conversion wasn't difficult.  The attached photos show how I did it.

Stay well,
Dick Scott
 



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

Thanks for several informative replies, the most informative of which is Chris Frissell's about Great Western in Billings.  Now I have a shipper if I want to model sugar shipments.  Thanks!!

Or C&H in Crockett, California, or numerous California beet plants . . .

Tony Thompson




Monon 1937 AAR boxcar

Richard Scott
 

Mont Switzer's 2017 Chicagoland RPM presentation motivated me to model a Monon boxcar.  O-scale CIL 9157 began as an Intermountain kit.  I scratchbuilt a new roof walk for it from styrene strips, and I replaced some of the kit's more fragile styrene parts with brass equivalents.  I painted the car with Polly Scale and MicroLux acrylics, and lettered it with Protocraft decals.

The Monon had 450 of these 1937 AAR boxcars, with road numbers 9000-9449.  Pullman-Standard built them in 1941 and 1942, and all rode on National B-1 trucks.  O-scale B-1s are hard to find so I "scratch-bashed" these from 1970s-vintage Atlas Bettendorf trucks.  The Atlas side-frames were molded from high-impact polystyrene so the conversion wasn't difficult.  The attached photos show how I did it.

Stay well,
Dick Scott
 


Re: Shortening Kadee Running Board

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tony and Bruce,

I would love to go the other way and lengthen a Kadee 40' Morton running board to 50'. Most Western Pacific/Sacramento Northern/Tidewater Southern 50' PS-1s had Morton running boards, and I have a mess of these I would like to be more accurate.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

Garth Groff  

On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 4:47 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Bruce Griffin wrote:

Has anyone tried this or have suggestions that would make it easier? Photos? I know canopy glue is a good adhesive for adhering to supports and maybe I could make the joint over one. 

Exactly what I would recommend, Bruce, but I haven't actually done it. It certainly ought to work.

Tony Thompson




Re: Red Owl warehouse

Rufus Cone
 

Following several posts by Clark Propst and others, Todd Sullivan wrote:
It also raises lots of questions about where cars came from and where the loads out were going.  E.g., where did all that sugar in NP boxcars come from?
and later
Thanks for several informative replies, the most informative of which is Chris Frissell's about Great Western in Billings.  Now I have a shipper if I want to model sugar shipments.  Thanks!!

Sugar beets and sugar production were a major business along the NP in eastern Montana into ND and also south of Billings at Hardin on the CB&Q:  Great Western Sugar in Billings;  Holly Sugar in Sidney and Hardin.

Details of beet growing and sugar production in the Yellowstone River Valley may be found in this 1970 thesis, which covers the era of this list:

An Economic Study of the Beet Sugar Industry in Montana - A Regional Analysis, By Willard Horace Godfrey, Jr. An Economic Study of the Beet Sugar Industry in Montana - A Regional Analysis, By Willard Horace Godfrey, Jr.

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1/4350/31762100108123.pdf

A shorter summary is available here:

An economic study of the beet sugar industry in Montana, Gail L. Cramer & Willard H. Jr. Godfrey, 1970, 259379, Montana State University, Agricultural Experiment Station.

https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/259379/files/agecon-montanastate-020AESBulletin.pdf

They note that American Crystal Sugar Company discontinued doing business at Missoula, Montana, in 1966

Sidney Sugars, formerly Holly Sugar Corporation, Sidney, Montana (now part of American Crystal Sugar Company) notes:

http://www.sidneysugars.com/our-company/history/

1924: Railroad tracks at the factory site made a factory possible in Sidney. Irrigation water from the Yellowstone River was available to the farmers since 1909.





Re: Red Owl warehouse

Todd Sullivan
 

Thanks for several informative replies, the most informative of which is Chris Frissell's about Great Western in Billings.  Now I have a shipper if I want to model sugar shipments.  Thanks!!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Shortening Kadee Running Board

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Griffin wrote:

Has anyone tried this or have suggestions that would make it easier? Photos? I know canopy glue is a good adhesive for adhering to supports and maybe I could make the joint over one. 

Exactly what I would recommend, Bruce, but I haven't actually done it. It certainly ought to work.

Tony Thompson




Shortening Kadee Running Board

Bruce Griffin
 

Friends,

I did a search of this and several lists and could not find an answer, has anyone ever shortened a Kadee running board? I am building a Rail Shop Carbon Black Hopper and want to replicate a 1948 build with an Apex running board. I would love to use a Kadee 50’ part and need to cut out 5’, presumably from the center in order to keep the end details in place.  

Has anyone tried this or have suggestions that would make it easier? Photos? I know canopy glue is a good adhesive for adhering to supports and maybe I could make the joint over one. Thanks for your insights. 
 

Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD
https://bomodeling.com/blog/

 

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