Date   

Re: Stripping an Accurail boxcar

David Jobe, Sr.
 

Jeff,

 

It’s a 4600 series USRA double-sheathed box car.  Hopefully, I’ll be able to try the Scalecoat this weekend or perhaps ELO.  Since this is for a kitbash I would prefer to return it to its unpainted state if possible.  Thanks much for the offer.  Hope to see you at the St. Louis RPM!

 

David Jobe, Sr.

Saint Ann, Missouri

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2017 12:39 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stripping an Accurail boxcar

 




David,

Which series box car is it? I have several undecs in my unbuilt kits stash.  I would trade you an undec for your car if I have the right one.

Jeff White

Alma, IL

 

On 5/8/2017 9:41 PM, 'David Jobe, Sr.' tangerine_flyer@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Unfortunately, 91% Isopropyl alcohol barely touches the paint.  It did get most of the lettering though.

 

David Jobe, Sr.

Saint Ann, Missouri

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2017 7:37 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stripping an Accurail boxcar

 





Have you tried 91% Isopropyl alcohol?

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX


On May 8, 2017, at 6:30 PM, 'David North' david.north@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Because the undec version of this series is out of stock at all our suppliers.

Cheers

Dave










Re: Essential Freight Cars - X29

David Jobe, Sr.
 

Sent off list.  About 8 MB total.

 

Best regards,

 

David Jobe, Sr.

Saint Ann, MIssouri

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 11:08 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Essential Freight Cars - X29

 




I am modeling an undecorated Red Caboose X29 and am seeking scans of Ted Culotta's January and February 2007 RMC Essential Freight Car articles on the Pennsy X29 class.  I do not necessarily need hard copies, as PDFs of the original articles would do nicely if anyone has copies.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Cheers!

Michael Gross

Pasadena, CA





Re: Ventilated Box Cars

richard glueck
 

Kind of like displaying Grandma in her casket, in the parlor, in July.




On Friday, May 12, 2017 2:50 AM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Yep, field heat is a familiar concept in produce shipping. It combines thermal heat from warm air, etc. with the biological heat from life processes that continue in most fruits and vegetables after harvest. Per-cooling by the shippers is the best remedy.
Tony Thompson 


On May 12, 2017, at 7:59 AM, 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 
Ike,
 
                The first phrase that came to mind as I read your message was “field heat”.  The crops coming in from the fields were warm.  Were they cooled before being loaded in to ventilated box cars?  I have no idea.
 
                I learned the term “field heat” from Tony Thompson (or I read it in Pacific Fruit Express by Thompson, Church, and Jones).  I hope he’ll chime in and comment.
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff
 
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 8:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ventilated Box Cars
 
 
There is another aspect of “ventilated” box cars I did not realize until I started doing research for the SRHA Wood and Steel Underframe Cars book. Ventilated cars were necessary to let heat OUT.

Any vegetable matter produces heat as it decomposes. Melons, etc that were shipped in vent box cars produced enough heat from that process to cause them to “go bad”. It’s not the loads needed cooling or refrigeration, they needed to keep from spoiling due to the heat they produce in transit. There is probably an expert on the list that can explain the process better?

Ike



Re: Permanent Heaters—was Ventilated B ox Cars

Bill Welch
 

I know that Tony, I was responding to Tim's statement.

Bill Welch


Ventilated Boxcar In 1959

Bob Chaparro
 

Caption: "Louisville and Nashville Railroad local freight train crosses Cumberland River as it leaves Clarksville, Tennessee, on run to Paris in September 1959. Photograph by J. Parker Lamb, © 2016, Center for Railroad Photography and Art. Lamb-01-149-01"

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/railphotoart/27670361634/in/album-72157668145827254/

 

Third car is an ACL ventilated boxcar.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Yep, field heat is a familiar concept in produce shipping. It combines thermal heat from warm air, etc. with the biological heat from life processes that continue in most fruits and vegetables after harvest. Per-cooling by the shippers is the best remedy.
Tony Thompson 


On May 12, 2017, at 7:59 AM, 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Ike,

 

                The first phrase that came to mind as I read your message was “field heat”.  The crops coming in from the fields were warm.  Were they cooled before being loaded in to ventilated box cars?  I have no idea.

 

                I learned the term “field heat” from Tony Thompson (or I read it in Pacific Fruit Express by Thompson, Church, and Jones).  I hope he’ll chime in and comment.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 8:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ventilated Box Cars

 

 

There is another aspect of “ventilated” box cars I did not realize until I started doing research for the SRHA Wood and Steel Underframe Cars book. Ventilated cars were necessary to let heat OUT.

Any vegetable matter produces heat as it decomposes. Melons, etc that were shipped in vent box cars produced enough heat from that process to cause them to “go bad”. It’s not the loads needed cooling or refrigeration, they needed to keep from spoiling due to the heat they produce in transit. There is probably an expert on the list that can explain the process better?

Ike


Re: Permanent Heaters—was Ventilated Box Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Bill, I was talking about BAR.

Tony Thompson 


On May 12, 2017, at 10:50 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

A'hem, pretty broad statement regarding pre-1960. FGE's Plywood sheathed FOBX 50-foot 4000 overhead bunker cars built beginning in 1944 were equipped with heaters under the floor and while granted it was a singular entity, Aluminum car FGEX 40000 was rebuilt with a permanent underslung heater. 


Then there all those pesky Canadian reefers so equipped.

Bill Welch


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Tony Thompson
 

After 1960? Off in the dim future somewhere? C'mon, Tim.

Tony Thompson 


On May 12, 2017, at 8:29 AM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Tony

After 1960, a minority of the reefers had either interior alcohol heaters,
or charcoal heaters mounted underneath, like the XI cars. Some of these were
equipped for bulk potato loading. However, prior to 1960 none of the reefers
had permanent heaters of any kind as you say.

Tim O'



The cars with heaters were NOT reefers, but were XI cars. The BAR reefers did NOT have permanent heaters. That's my understanding. Please correct if you have more info.

Tony Thompson


Essential Freight Cars - X29

Michael Gross
 

I am modeling an undecorated Red Caboose X29 and am seeking scans of Ted Culotta's January and February 2007 RMC Essential Freight Car articles on the Pennsy X29 class.  I do not necessarily need hard copies, as PDFs of the original articles would do nicely if anyone has copies.


Many thanks in advance.


Cheers!

Michael Gross

Pasadena, CA


Re: CO-2

Craig Wilson
 

I ran this by John Young, a friend who recently retired from a career at the Pepsi bottling plant in Howell, Michigan:

In the early 1950's, CO2 would probably been delivered in larger (200 gallon range) tanks and transported into the plant. These would have been delivered in box cars. The empties would also have been returned in boxcars. Remember, the bottling plants of that era were much smaller than those of today. If choosing to model a plant that has the kind of production that would require an out door storage tank, he could use a model of a horizontal LP tank, shortened a bit (you need the round ends because of the high pressure) or a vertical tank of the same design. We had one of each tank in Howell. The vertical one you are familiar with had a 50 ton capacity; the horizontal one on the other side of the plant had a 26 ton capacity. Unfortunately, I never had a reason to convert those figures to gallons or cubic feet capacity, so I don't really know how large they actually were. My guess would be that the larger one is in the 15000 gallon range, comparing them to the syrup tanks inside.

The unload method involves a two hose hook up: one hose delivers the liquid CO2 to the storage tank, the second hose returns CO2 vapor to the delivery vessel from the onsite storage tank. It both captures the gas and also balances the pressure between the two tanks making it easier to deliver.

It takes a pump to move liquid CO2, so the unload spot for the CO2 rail car will need some type of pump house. At our site, because the CO2 was delivered by truck, the trucks had a PTO driven pump under the middle of the tank.

In any case, there will be an on site storage tank. No bottling plant would have paid to use a rail car as a storage tank for CO2, CO2 is just too cheap, and the per diem rate too high to hold the tank car for a week to unload it. 

The Howell plant made over 150,000 cases of pop a day and used one truck load of CO2 per day. When I entered the business in 1978, we used about a truck load a week, and we were a big operation at the time turning out about 35,000 cases a day.

One other thing to mention is to have the CO2 source be in the London, Ontario area. That has been a long time source of CO2 over many decades. There have been other sources pop up in the intervening years (such as Lima, Ohio) but even in the 1950's it would have been cheaper to ship CO2 by truck to the modeled town than to ship it by rail from Ohio.
-----------------
Hopefully this answers some questions.  Craig Wilson


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

np328
 

   I had presented last year at both Chicagoland and Cocoa and this spring at a Twin Cities RPM about National Reefer Movements. (Do I have too many Reefers?)

In it I had presented that there was a Special Car Order 95 placed in May 1956, which read in part as follows,

     Because of the impending heavy movement, principally watermelons - SCO 95 became effective May 15. Order is applicable to ventilated (VM) boxcars owned by the ACL, SAL, and C&WC.” (Charleston &Western Carolina)  Prompt unloading and expedited return to loading areas is requested.  

          

   This SCO 95 continued that year until the July 20th AAR bulletin stated : SCO 95 applicable to ventilated boxcars is now cancelled

 I had also provided the quote from the May 21, 1956 AAR bulletin that " The heaviest demands for refrigerator cars normally shifts from the Northern-Belt states to the Southeastern, Gulf, and Southwestern states during April and May". 

Read: Protected Service, which in itself is a major market of refrigerator cars and really a bonus for prototype oriented modelers who understand how it affects refrigerator car usage. 
                                                                                        

     It also lead me to believe (based on the number of SCO's and mentions for Canadian Cars to be returned home) that US modeler seriously undermodel the number of Canadian boxcars on US rails. However that is another topic.                                                                            Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN 

    


---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Hi,

  What was shipped in "Ventilated Box Cars" - the ones with open/slotted doors and

ventilators on the ends of the cars?  

  Most of the pics of them I've seen have been pre-WWII ... when did they stop

being used?  What replaced them?

                                                                                                          - Jim


Re: THINNER FOR FLOQUIL SOLVENT BASED PAINTS

anthony wagner
 

For what it's worth, I used lacquer thinner with both Floquil and Scalecoat before I switched to acrylics. It worked better with Floquil and saved some cash over buying brand specific thinners. A quart can would last a long time. Tony Wagner


On Thursday, May 11, 2017 3:31 PM, "Rod Miller rod@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
On 5/11/17 1:09 PM, Nelson Moyer npmoyer@... [STMFC] wrote:
> You’re rumor is urban legend. If you read the fine print on the can, you will
> see that the ingredients include a number of organic solvents that are
> immiscible with water. If you wish to experiment, put a little water in a
> small jar and add a little lacquer thinner. Your will see water on the bottom
> layer and lacquer thinner on top. If you shake the jar and let it stand, the
> solvents will separate into two layers. I don’t have my CRC handbook any
> more, but you look up the solubility tables if you have one available.
>
> Nelson Moyer
>
> From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Thursday,
> May 11, 2017 2:34 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:
> THINNER FOR FLOQUIL SOLVENT BASED PAINTS
>
>
>
> It is rumored that the big box lacquer thinners are cut with water.
>
> For painting I buy lacquer thinner from auto paint supply stores. For clean
> up I use the big box thinner.
>
> -- Rod Miller

Good info, thanks.

--
Rod Miller
Handcraftsman
===
Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives, | O Scale West / S West
Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More | 2017 Meet is May 25 - 27
http://www.rodmiller.com | http://www.oscalewest.com



Re: Permanent Heaters—was Ventilated Box Cars

Bill Welch
 

A'hem, pretty broad statement regarding pre-1960. FGE's Plywood sheathed FOBX 50-foot 4000 overhead bunker cars built beginning in 1944 were equipped with heaters under the floor and while granted it was a singular entity, Aluminum car FGEX 40000 was rebuilt with a permanent underslung heater. 

Then there all those pesky Canadian reefers so equipped.

Bill Welch


Re: Ventilated Box Cars (Processing Produce)

George Eichelberger
 

The packing and loading methods changed over the years, by region and by crop. Watermelons did not need much more than a “watermelon” (ventilated) box car and layers of straw. Putting them in rail cars as close to the fields as possible made sense as no other processing was required. The following link is a photo of Southern “vent” 27941 (SRHA Archives, Ben Roberts collection) being loaded in 1912 directly from a mule powered farm wagon.

The idea of loading watermelons (a huge crop in Florida and the South) in the field did not go away. Semi trucks were and still are parked and loaded in the fields.

Ike

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-3zlog4iNWXZU1WMjN6U1B4bVU/view?usp=sharing


Re: Ventilated Box Cars (Processing Produce)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

If you are talking about the very early years of national produce shipments, things were somewhat different. In Southern California (mainly pre-1910), the citrus crop was sorted and packed in the field or brought to the open platforms of the depots to be sorted and packed. This changed with the large scale introduction of dedicated packing houses, of course.

 

No outside authority inspected the fruit in those early days. However, the retailers and wholesalers in the east, especially New York, were angry with the California growers for their successful lobbying for increased tariffs on imported lemons and (later) oranges. So, the local health departments inspected fruit arriving from California and, not surprisingly, tended to condemn more California fruit than fruit from southern Europe.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Moderator

The Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/citrusmodeling/info


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Edward
 

Before loading any produce to be sold in markets onto rail cars for shipment, it went from the field directly to a facility where it was all sorted, inspected, graded, often washed, then counted or weighed, boxed or crated for shipment. For interstate shipment produce was inspected by agricultural or public health authorities of the growing region as well as at the consuming region.

If necessary (depending on the type of produce), crated or boxed fruits or raw vegetables ready for shipment were stored in a cooled or chilled warehouse. It likely held produce from a number of area farms. 

When shipping produce, it's important to maintain optimal storage temperatures, to reduce the possibility of spoilage enroute.

That's only half the story. There was much more involved with delivery and distribution of rail shipped produce to local markets at the destination. All that is much changed now.

Ed Bommer


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

After 1960, a minority of the reefers had either interior alcohol heaters,
or charcoal heaters mounted underneath, like the XI cars. Some of these were
equipped for bulk potato loading. However, prior to 1960 none of the reefers
had permanent heaters of any kind as you say.

Tim O'



The cars with heaters were NOT reefers, but were XI cars. The BAR reefers did NOT have permanent heaters. That's my understanding. Please correct if you have more info.

Tony Thompson


Re: Diosol Formula

John Sykes III
 

I've got all three of those in my solvent collection.  Thanks for the ratios.

-- John

P.S. Acetone can be use with other solvents to accelerate the drying of lacquer, just as Butyl Cellosolve is used to slow it down, but I have never seen it used alone, except for nail polish remover.  I do think it is one of the ingredients of Tru-Color paints (or, rumor has it).  Definitely melts most plastics.


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

Ike,

 

                The first phrase that came to mind as I read your message was “field heat”.  The crops coming in from the fields were warm.  Were they cooled before being loaded in to ventilated box cars?  I have no idea.

 

                I learned the term “field heat” from Tony Thompson (or I read it in Pacific Fruit Express by Thompson, Church, and Jones).  I hope he’ll chime in and comment.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 8:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ventilated Box Cars

 

 

There is another aspect of “ventilated” box cars I did not realize until I started doing research for the SRHA Wood and Steel Underframe Cars book. Ventilated cars were necessary to let heat OUT.

Any vegetable matter produces heat as it decomposes. Melons, etc that were shipped in vent box cars produced enough heat from that process to cause them to “go bad”. It’s not the loads needed cooling or refrigeration, they needed to keep from spoiling due to the heat they produce in transit. There is probably an expert on the list that can explain the process better?

Ike


Re: Ventilated Box Cars

Tony Thompson
 

The cars with heaters were NOT reefers, but were XI cars. The BAR reefers did NOT have permanent heaters. That's my understanding. Please correct if you have more info.

Tony Thompson 


On May 12, 2017, at 12:00 AM, richard glueck richard_glueck@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Bangor and Aroostook reefers were equipped with charcoal heaters in the winter, for shipping potatoes.   In other times of the year they traveled with ice.  I'm certain this isn't news, but occasionally, some of these cars were leased out to California companies, which might be news.  In the mid-50's, the switch began to an all-steel fleet, but wood sided cars remained in service for years and well into the mid-60's.

Richard


On Thursday, May 11, 2017 8:54 AM, "Eric Hansmann eric@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
There are historic Pittsburgh images that show ACL ventilated box cars (XV) in the produce terminal area, circa late 50s and early 1960s. 
Awhile back I compiled notes on XV listings in the 1943 ORER reprint. I was surprised at the numbers. I'm on the road at the moment but will see what I can dig up tomorrow.
As a 1926 modeler, these are an important car class with many more in service before the Depression Era. B&O, PRR, Reading, L&N, C&O, and many others had XV cars in service in the 1920s. 

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


On May 11, 2017 at 2:45 AM "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:



Tim and Jim,
I'm wondering what you mean by "weren't traveling too terribly far"? A lot of produce out of the Carolinas and Georgia came north to New York and other major cities in these cars. That is a pretty fair distance. I can't cite statistics, but the proof is in photos of RF&P trains which often show large blocks of ACL ventilators. See Richard E. Prince's RICHMOND-WASHINGTON LINE for examples.
I agree about melons and the like being shipped in ventilators. Ambroid referred to their model as a "watermelon" car, which seems cute marketing but does have truthiness to it. The genius of these cars was that they could be used for almost any clean load on the return trip. I recall reading somewhere that tobacco was another frequent ventilator commodity, though most of this traffic likely didn't leave the south.
Jim, these ventilators are closely identified with "y'all" railroads, and most of the major southern lines had substantial fleets of these cars up WWII, with Seaboard and ACL continuing to use them in large numbers into the 1950s. However, as Dennis noted, they were replaced by ice reefers running as ventilators. By the 1920s the two biggest refrigerator operators, PFE and FGE, dominated the produce trade and the decline of ventilators was well underway.
On the West Coast, the Southern Pacific and its subsidiaries were major ventilators operators at the turn of the century. PFE made their ventilators redundant. Even the Western Pacific bought a modest fleet of ventilators just after WWI. When that road joined PFE, their ventilators were soon all rebuilt as plain boxcars.
Yours Aye,

Garth Groff

On 5/11/17 12:15 AM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Lots of melons and cantaloupes and squashes that weren't travelling
too terribly far and in "season" - but I think at other times of the
year they could be used like ordinary box cars.

Tim O'






What was shipped in "Ventilated Box Cars" - the ones with open/slotted doors and
ventilators on the ends of the cars? 

Most of the pics of them I've seen have been pre-WWII ... when did they stop
being used?  What replaced them?

Jim





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