Date   

Re: Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

Kenneth Montero
 

To the right of the Big Four boxcar are two very different New York Central and Hudson River boxcars - very different sizes, lettering schemes, trucks.

Ken Montero

On 10/07/2020 12:19 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A8223.336.RR/viewer

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

PRR Boxcar 13801 and other boxcars also seen.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

charles slater
 

They were required to be in the up position unless the car was covered by a load over the end, or used as an idler car between two other cars and was covered.
Charlie Slater

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)
 

All-

The N&W boxcar looks like it has a door that closes to the inside of the car…I don’t recall seeing that arrangement before.

It is also interesting to see how many early cars had what we would call “Plug” doors where the door cammed into the opening with a locking bar.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

 

Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A8223.336.RR/viewer

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

PRR Boxcar 13801 and other boxcars also seen.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

It is also interesting to see how many early cars had what we would call “Plug” doors where the door cammed into the opening with a locking bar.

     Around the turn of the 20th century, they were called "flush" doors.

Tony Thompson




Re: Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

Charlie Vlk
 

All-

The N&W boxcar looks like it has a door that closes to the inside of the car…I don’t recall seeing that arrangement before.

It is also interesting to see how many early cars had what we would call “Plug” doors where the door cammed into the opening with a locking bar.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

 

Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A8223.336.RR/viewer

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

PRR Boxcar 13801 and other boxcars also seen.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)
A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:
Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

  Heck with ignoring the flat car! That's a terrific load, a power shear, from Mesta Machine.

Tony Thompson




Re: Retractable Brake Staffs on Flat Cars - An Operational Question

Ed Hawkins
 



On Oct 7, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I don’t recall seeing prototype or model photos of loaded or empty flat cars with the brake staffs in the retracted position during operation. What was prototype practice for retractable hand brakes? Were they lowered only during loading and unloading?

Nelson,
A number of hand brake companies from the 1930s thru 1950s produced “drop shaft” versions for flat cars. While I don’t have any written procedures that involve the operation of them, it would make sense for the shaft and wheel to be dropped any time a load would potentially interfere or damage the hand brake in left in the up position.

As an example, on pages 1086-1087 the 1940 Car Builders’ Cyclopedia has photos and a description of the Superior Drop Shaft hand brake. The flat cars typically had a half-round section removed from the deck boards at the “B” end, such that the top of the brake wheel could be lowered flush with the top of the wood deck. 

RP CYC Volume 10 also illustrates various drop shaft hand brakes spread from pages 39 thru 54. 
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

I’d add the Mesta Machine Low Shear.  They rode on freight cars, after all  J

 

What a great 3-d-printed product (hint, hint).

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 1:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

 

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for digging up this wonderful image!

 

The car PRR 559589 is a PRR class XL boxcar. The UNION LINES lettering limits the photo to the twenties or earlier.

 

> Ignore the flat car

 

With all due respect, I will spend a minute on the flat car - it appears to be PFW&CRW 931651, a PRR class FM flat. I like all the chalk marks on the car! I notice the inscription "11" over "28" under the CAPY stencil, this may indicate a reweigh date of 11-1928

 

There is also an additional PRR class XL boxcar and a PRR class GR gon to look at as well

 

Claus Schlund

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2020 12:18 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

Blockedhttps://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AMSP210.B014.I05/viewer

Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Eric Hansmann
 

Claus,

 

The 11/28 you see on the flat car is the month and day. The year is to the right in a larger stencil, 03. This was common practice from 1900 to the early Teens.

 

The flat car seems to have a NEW stencil just below the isometric chalk drawing. That drawing obscures a DET 11.03 stencil.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 12:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

 

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for digging up this wonderful image!

 

The car PRR 559589 is a PRR class XL boxcar. The UNION LINES lettering limits the photo to the twenties or earlier.

 

> Ignore the flat car

 

With all due respect, I will spend a minute on the flat car - it appears to be PFW&CRW 931651, a PRR class FM flat. I like all the chalk marks on the car! I notice the inscription "11" over "28" under the CAPY stencil, this may indicate a reweigh date of 11-1928

 

There is also an additional PRR class XL boxcar and a PRR class GR gon to look at as well

 

Claus Schlund

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2020 12:18 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AMSP210.B014.I05/viewer

Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Retractable Brake Staffs on Flat Cars - An Operational Question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Nelson;

 

Every RR may have done it differently, but when they started encountering problems with loads interfering with brake staffs/wheels, some RRs came up with the idea of removable, or in some cases, pivoting brake assemblies (think USRA gon).  Obviously in the case of temporarily removable brake staffs, you couldn’t set the brakes, so you had to couple to other cars, in a string, to have brakes.  The pivoting brake was designed to be used pivoted, although in practice this may have been problematic (the take up spool was 90 degrees off).

 

Retracting brake shaft/wheel assemblies were another way.  The idea was to drop the staff and wheel down out of the way of an interfering load.  There was a spring loaded button in the cases I know of, that you pressed to release the staff from its high position.  The staff had to be somewhat shorter to not drop into the roadbed or rail (crossovers).

 

If, for instance, you had a flat with a load that interfered with the brake staff/wheel, you dropped it for the duration.  Otherwise, maybe just during loading/unloading.  LOTS of brake staffs were bent during loading, or by shifted loads.

 

Sometimes forgetful crew left the wheel down, and those folks setting the brake had to lift it up to do so.

 

The attached shots of PRR F49 show it in high and lowered positions.  Note how close the staff is to roadbed in the last photo

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 12:57 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Retractable Brake Staffs on Flat Cars - An Operational Question

 

I don’t recall seeing prototype or model photos of loaded or empty flat cars with the brake staffs in the retracted position during operation. What was prototype practice for retractable hand brakes? Were they lowered only during loading and unloading?

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bob,
 
Thanks for digging up this wonderful image!
 
The car PRR 559589 is a PRR class XL boxcar. The UNION LINES lettering limits the photo to the twenties or earlier.
 
> Ignore the flat car
 
With all due respect, I will spend a minute on the flat car - it appears to be PFW&CRW 931651, a PRR class FM flat. I like all the chalk marks on the car! I notice the inscription "11" over "28" under the CAPY stencil, this may indicate a reweigh date of 11-1928
 
There is also an additional PRR class XL boxcar and a PRR class GR gon to look at as well
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2020 12:18 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AMSP210.B014.I05/viewer

Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Retractable Brake Staffs on Flat Cars - An Operational Question

Nelson Moyer
 

I don’t recall seeing prototype or model photos of loaded or empty flat cars with the brake staffs in the retracted position during operation. What was prototype practice for retractable hand brakes? Were they lowered only during loading and unloading?

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Bruce Smith
 

Why on earth would I ignore the flat car? It is PFW&CRW 931651, class FM, which will eventually be incorporated into the PRR's fleet. What a great load too!

The boxcars are both class XL, lettered PENNSTLVANIA and PENNSYLVANIA LINES/Union Line (559589)

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)
 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AMSP210.B014.I05/viewer

Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Big Four Boxcar (1906)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A8223.336.RR/viewer

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

PRR Boxcar 13801 and other boxcars also seen.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 559589 (Undated)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AMSP210.B014.I05/viewer

Ignore the flat car. Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: GATX fleet breakdown?

Dave Parker
 

Bruce:

Such a breakdown, even if possible, would be a very daunting task just due to the size of the GATX fleet.  If anybody takes a stab at it, my hat is off to them!

I did spend a few minutes thumbing through the 1919 and 1936 tariffs, just counting pages dominated by each car size.  In 1936 (~24,000 cars running under GATX), I'd guesstimate that 8000-gal cars outnumbered 10,000-gals by about 2:1.  A small number of 12,000-gal cars, and rather few under 8000.

In 1919, my sense is that it was similar, but there were more 6000- and 7000-gal cars that presumably did not persist into the 1930s.

I did not look at PGX, CTTX, or Penn-Conley (including TCX) -- only at GATX reporting marks in '36.

Don't know if this helps much.  GATX is a bear to track over time.  OTOH, if anybody is interested in Barrett's fleet of ~1600 asphalt cars running under BMX, I am getting a half-decent handle there.  The most obvious thing is the paucity of 8000-gal cars and the dominance of 10,000-gals.  And "no" multi-compartments!

Given his interest in GATC, David might have more to add.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Storzek & Des Plaines 1916 NYC Auto Box Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 08:02 AM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:
    Hopefully either Dennis has acquired more knowledge of these cars over the last thirty years or Ray Breyer or another list member with knowledge of these cars can respond to my questions.
Don,
Unfortunately writing the history section of the instructions was the end of my research on these cars. As I recall, it was the late Richard Stoving who provided the bulk of the roster data for the NYC cars. As I understood it, first the Michigan Central cars were rolled into the NYC roster, AND THEN the rebuilding and dispositions began.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal History book by David Leider

Fritz Milhaupt
 

I got a copy a few weeks ago.

If you have David Leider's book on the pickle industry around the Great Lakes, you'll recognize the layout immediately.

In addition to a general history, a good portion of the book covers major infrastructure projects that the B&OCT participated in-- it had a significant part in many of the grade separation projects across Chicago, as well as the straightening of the South Branch of the Chicago River. It is well-illustrated with plenty of photographs, maps and diagrams.

I enjoyed it immensely, especially the parts about Chicago Grand Central Station and the adjacent downtown freight houses.

A bit of family history: My parents took me, my brother and my sister for a weekend in Chicago the second weekend in November, 1969. We arrived from Grand Rapids on C&O #9 at Grand Central on Friday morning, and had a pleasant weekend seeing the sites and doing touristy things, such as visiting the Museum of Science and Industry, going to Marshall Field's and having dinner at the Berghoff to satisfy my father's appetite for sauerbraten.

Late Sunday afternoon, we arrived at Grand Central for our return trip on C&O #8, to be greeted at the door by signs taped to the doors saying that the C&O's and B&O's trains were now arriving and departing from Northwestern station. My folks, with three children under the age of five, managed a hasty cab ride to Northwestern Station, arriving with but a few minutes to spare. I remember thinking that we were spending an awfully long time waiting at signals on our way out of Chicago, as the train negotiated its new route.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. It filled in quite a few gaps in my knowledge of the Pere Marquette's operations in Chicago as a tenant of the B&OCT.

-Fritz Milhaupt


Re: ATSF FT-I and FT-J cross-section

Jake Schaible
 

This is likely no mystery to anyone but me, but for weeks I've been perplexed by comparing the aforementioned PJ Student's article re building an Ft-J (v similar to the Ft-I).  Again, Student failed to include the 5 side sill supports that can be seen peaking out from under his article's grainy Cyril Durrenberger image of the ATSF Wt-J 2027?7.  My question is were added on later with one of the several rebuilds?  Or were they original, and Student just ignored this feature in his models.  

Charlie Slater was kind enough to share images of these feature, which show they were not - as I initially suspected - contiguous parts.  Rather they are compound built up plates riveted to the floor support / cross bar features, which seemed for a bit to bolster my hypothesis (and hope) that they were added in one of the later rebuild phases.   Other late images of converted Ft-I cars show these better:   https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Atchison%2C_Topeka%2C_and_Santa_Fe%2C_Flat_Car_97834_%2815894678128%29.jpg

Torn on how to advance, I broke down and finally purchased a book long on my wish list : Hendrickson's "Santa Fe Open-Top Cars" (on sale for just $20 now at https://sfrhms.org/product/vol-7-open-top-cars-flat-gon-hopper-cars-1902-1959/)  No excuse for waiting so long, but at ~1/3 the list price?  Sold!  Anyway, reviewing the Ft-I & Ft-J cars (pg 25 - 28) all show these 5 side sill support features.  Only exception is a converted Wt-J ATSF 191240, caught in 1954.  However several feature of this car (including 8 stake pockets instead of 10 in the as built Ft-I &Ft-J) have me doubting it was part of the Ft-I or -J classes. 

So .... shoot.... now I need to make and fit 10 side sill plates per car... in N scale!   ;-)

 


Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal History book by David Leider

Charlie Vlk
 

All-

I was just browsing on Facebook and found out that David Leider’s new book is available.

 

http://boctbook.dhke.com/?fbclid=IwAR0Mfq20_JKSPeXHiJhridL-sEPakL8K3W9CXaJL3bAO0euRV81YfRLggzw

 

Based on his previous books and the subject matter I am ordering it and I suspect many of you with any interest in the Chicago Area or terminal railroads in general will want it as well….

 

Charlie Vlk

(no affiliation with David other than a very satisfied reader)

 


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 531112 (1930)

Eric Hansmann
 

This illustrates the entry of the Monongahela Railway into the Waynesburg yard of the former W&W narrow gauge. The Mon came in from the east while the W&W right of way entered from the west end of town.

 

Some of the narrow gauge facilities were still standing at the time of this February 1930 image. Here’s the turntable and roundhouse.

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A200907.1930.05051

 

A third rail was laid on the long siding that served a dozen different businesses.

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A200907.1930.05059

 

While this photo is labeled Cattle Pens, the Pennsy flat car is a narrow gauge car used as an idler for switching. It has been fitted with standard and narrow gauge couplers.

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A200907.1930.05039

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 531112 (1930)

 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 531112 (1930)

A photo from the Historic Pittsburgh website:

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A200907.1930.05045/viewer

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Photo editing software will improve the image of the boxcar.

What may be a PRR gondola with a scrap load appears to the left.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

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