Date   

Re: Freight Car Clinics at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach

Aley, Jeff A
 

Bruce and Tony,

 

               I was only listing the “esteemed” members of STMFC.  You two are in a category of your own!  :-)

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 3:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight Car Clinics at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach

 

 

Bruce Smith wrote:



 

​And my weathering clinic will cover how to weather steam era freight cars ;)

 

Ditto for me. Not sure why Jeff doesn't see weathering of freight cars as a freight car topic.  <g>

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

 


Re: Epoxy ?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,
  Thanks for the replies - they confirm that what I've been doing all along
is a good idea to just keep doing it ... which has been to wait until the
epoxy is fully cured.  Typically I set 30 minute epoxy aside for 12 to 24
hours - I mix it on a small piece of hard surface cardboard ... and use
the left over on that piece to test if the cure is complete.  The extra
time has always proven to help.
  Yes, I did go to Wikipedia and other websites ... before I ever asked
the question ... they were all too sparse on the "practical side" of
epoxy - lots of stuff about how it works and such (without anything
I'd call the "details").

  Soooo - no short cuts for epoxy.  Sigh.  I love the way it provides a
strong bond and is non-conductive.  But I'm always careful to only
use it where I won't have to take it apart (ever).
                                  - Jim B.


Re: Freight Car Clinics at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

 
​And my weathering clinic will cover how to weather steam era freight cars ;)

Ditto for me. Not sure why Jeff doesn't see weathering of freight cars as a freight car topic.  

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Ted Culotta's Prototype Modelers Voume Four has an excelent article on his treatment of this car.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 12/29/17 11:49 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Gould/Tichy 40' flat

 


Although the SSW 81000 series cars were originally built 1912=1914, they all
received new underframes 1937=1939. Which explains why a "55 year old" flat car
would still be in revenue service in 1969, as shown in that magazine photo.

Richard Hendrickson modeled that car (in the magazine), SSW 81541, as the second
"pivot" car in a pair of flats with an extremely long pipe load.

I have a 1930 image of one of the SSW 81000 series cars with two Cotton Belt
trailers - a very early example of piggyback!

Tim O'Connor


 Richard Hendrickson's article in the June 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal (page 5),
 including a photo of a Cotton Belt car with a lumber load:
  http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1993_6/
 Ben Hom


Jon Miller asked:
"I know that the/some of the correct lettering is NC&StL (champ HC-646).  I have one of my flats lettered but it's at the other house.  I found a unlettered (but painted) flat and the champ decals.  So now the question.  What other lettering would be correct and at least close.  I'm trying to do a flat with a lumber load but need to decal it first.  Got some "TrainLife" lumber loads and they seem to be nice but do require some time."


Re: Epoxy ?

Dave Parker
 

Carl:

You make a very good point.  I guess I was thinking (out loud?) more about the casting type of application, and about Jim's original question about whether you could paint over partially cured epoxy.   IOW, a lower S/V situation than in a glue joint.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA 


On Friday, December 29, 2017 2:09 PM, "Carl Gustafson cgustafs@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 09:35:38PM +0000, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] wrote:
> One thing yet to be mentioned:  my (albeit fuzzy) recollection is that at least some of the 2-part epoxies that I have used over the years have involved an exothermic reaction, i.e., they give off heat. 

Well, they all do that, and because the stuff is so viscous, and becomes solid, heat transfer is pretty slow.
However, unless you have it mixed in bulk (as in a cup, or using it to fill voids) the heat will dissipate
fairly readily. It's a function of surface to volume ratio - a thin film, even if between two solid pieces, will
not usually create enough heat to cause you a problem.

Mixing even a few milliliters in a small container will get quite warm. applying it in a film will let the heat
escape.

Carl Gustafson



Re: Freight Car Clinics at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach

Bruce Smith
 

​And my weathering clinic will cover how to weather steam era freight cars ;)

Regards

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 10:48 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Freight Car Clinics at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach
 


Hi Folks,

 

               A lot of our esteemed STMFC members are giving clinics on freight cars at Prototype Rails:

 

Al Brown: Building Unusual Tank Cars

Ted Culotta: Finding Kitbashing Opportunities in Freight Cars

George Eichelberger: Freight Car Drawings from Eastern and Southeastern RR’s

Steve Funaro: Dry Ice Cars

Jared Harper: Building a 1943 Freight Car Roster

Roger Hinman: NYC Steel Flat Cars

Schuyler Larrabee: Shake-N-Take: Erie Boxcar

Jim Panza: Selected TTX Piggyback cars of the 60’s and 70’s

Mont Switzer: 1960s-70’s TOFC Trailers

Mark Vaughan: Intro to the GATX Airslide Covered Hopper

Bill Welch: Improving ARA/AAR Standard Steel HO Boxcar Kits

Fenton Wells: Kitbashing SOU 36’ Ventilated Boxcars from Accurail’s kit

Craig Zeni:  Building a Resin Freight Car Model for Beginners

 

               More info on these and other clinics can be found at www.prototyperails.com .

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 




Re: Epoxy ?

Carl Gustafson
 

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 09:35:38PM +0000, Dave Parker spottab@yahoo.com [STMFC] wrote:
One thing yet to be mentioned:� my (albeit fuzzy) recollection is that at least some of the 2-part epoxies that I have used over the years have involved an exothermic reaction, i.e., they give off heat.�
Well, they all do that, and because the stuff is so viscous, and becomes solid, heat transfer is pretty slow.
However, unless you have it mixed in bulk (as in a cup, or using it to fill voids) the heat will dissipate
fairly readily. It's a function of surface to volume ratio - a thin film, even if between two solid pieces, will
not usually create enough heat to cause you a problem.

Mixing even a few milliliters in a small container will get quite warm. applying it in a film will let the heat
escape.

Carl Gustafson


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Tim O'Connor
 


Although the SSW 81000 series cars were originally built 1912=1914, they all
received new underframes 1937=1939. Which explains why a "55 year old" flat car
would still be in revenue service in 1969, as shown in that magazine photo.

Richard Hendrickson modeled that car (in the magazine), SSW 81541, as the second
"pivot" car in a pair of flats with an extremely long pipe load.

I have a 1930 image of one of the SSW 81000 series cars with two Cotton Belt
trailers - a very early example of piggyback!

Tim O'Connor


 Richard Hendrickson's article in the June 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal (page 5),
 including a photo of a Cotton Belt car with a lumber load:
  http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1993_6/
 Ben Hom


Jon Miller asked:
"I know that the/some of the correct lettering is NC&StL (champ HC-646).  I have one of my flats lettered but it's at the other house.  I found a unlettered (but painted) flat and the champ decals.  So now the question.  What other lettering would be correct and at least close.  I'm trying to do a flat with a lumber load but need to decal it first.  Got some "TrainLife" lumber loads and they seem to be nice but do require some time."


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

Thanks to all and Ben.  I have that RMJ somewhere but going to the site is easier.  Will do the SP&S as that saves the other set of decals intact.  The lumber load picture is a little late for me as I will do mostly/all wood and not banding.  Also when it was built I didn't have scale couplers or .088 wheelsets
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Epoxy ?

Dave Parker
 

One thing yet to be mentioned:  my (albeit fuzzy) recollection is that at least some of the 2-part epoxies that I have used over the years have involved an exothermic reaction, i.e., they give off heat. 

A few years ago, I used a super heavy-duty epoxy (Touchstone Express II) for a counter-top fabrication.  It melted the plastic cup that I mixed it in.  Ever since, I try to remember to check a small batch before using a new (to me ) product, especially if it's going onto plastic.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Friday, December 29, 2017 12:24 PM, "Carl Gustafson cgustafs@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
One other thing about applying stuff over not-yet-cured epoxy:
There may be some dimensional change - either some shrinkage or
expansion. Perhaps not enough to be really obvious, but enough
to mess with what's over it.

Carl Gustafson



Re: Epoxy ?

Carl Gustafson
 

One other thing about applying stuff over not-yet-cured epoxy:
There may be some dimensional change - either some shrinkage or
expansion. Perhaps not enough to be really obvious, but enough
to mess with what's over it.

Carl Gustafson


Re: Epoxy ?

Carl Gustafson
 

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:44:00PM +0000, jimbetz@jimbetz.com [STMFC] wrote:

1) Does the epoxy use/need anything from the environment
during the curing process. For example oxygen or ___
from the air?
No. The two component parts react together to form a polymer. They contain
all that is necessary for the reaction.


2) Related to #1 - is "open to the air" important to the
curing process?
As has been pointed out, open to the air is not necessary.


3) Would the presence of water, acrylic paint, or lacquer
paint on the surface of -curing- epoxy affect how well
it cures? Faster? Slower? Inhibit full cure? Inhibit/
only affect the layer in contact with the curing epoxy?
Although water may react to some extent with the individual components of
adhesive system, there's usually not enough there to cause a problem. If
there's enough moisture or other compounds with active sites, it may reduce
utlimate strength.


4) Is it a bad idea to paint over epoxy, before it is cured,
with acrylics?
Yes, because it will get your brush all sticky. Plus, the acrylics may not
coat very well if there is still a chemical reaction going on (i.e. curing).


5) Would using a white glue, such as KK, over epoxy
-while it is curing- affect the cure?
Probably not. Might affect the stuff on the surface, though.

Carl (Used to be a chemist) Gustafson


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Benjamin Hom
 


Jon Miller asked:
"I know that the/some of the correct lettering is NC&StL (champ HC-646).  I have one of my flats lettered but it's at the other house.  I found a unlettered (but painted) flat and the champ decals.  So now the question.  What other lettering would be correct and at least close.  I'm trying to do a flat with a lumber load but need to decal it first.  Got some "TrainLife" lumber loads and they seem to be nice but do require some time."

Richard Hendrickson's article in the June 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal (page 5), including a photo of a Cotton Belt car with a lumber load:


Ben Hom



Re: Epoxy ?

Tim O'Connor
 


I found that out the hard way! Definitely try to get as close to 50/50
as possible! Extra hardener is not a good idea.

Tim O'Connor


That is a major misconception. The curing speed is built into the chemistry of the hardener. That hardener is then expected to be mixed at the stated ratio with the resin. If you vary the proportion, you end up with either extra free resin or extra free hardener in the mix, that will never chemically combine with anything. Yes, sight variance of the mixing ratios will seem to change the cure time, but will also degrade (weaken) the physical properties, and may leave the semi cured material rubbery or sticky.

Epoxy does not need air to harden. which is why it is great for large laminations; it will harden between plies miles from the edge of the joint. It will also harden in a closed mold, making it excellent for casting. It was one of the major resins for parts cast in rubber molds fifty or so years ago, before easier to work with urethanes  were developed. All of the William J. Clouser Custom Cast work was epoxy, as were my early resin kits.

One typically doesn't paint over uncured epoxy simply because it is unknown what effect the paint may have on the cure. Some chemicals in paint MAY inhibit the cure, leaving a sticky uncured layer between the paint and cured epoxy.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Tim O'Connor
 


And if I recall correctly, the CHAMP HC-646 set has lettering for most
of them, if not all of them.

I lettered mine T&P 5000-5299 (42') 285 cars in 1950.

Also SSW 81000-81547 (41'11") 151 cars in 1950.

Not sure which CP series, but CP had 466 41'5" flats in series 306500-307099
and 714 41'8" flats in series 307500-308699 in 1950.

Owl Mountain, Trainworx and Exactrail also make modular lumber loads now.

Tim O'Connor

=======================

 SP&S, T&P, DL&W, CN, CP and StLSW all had very similar cars.
 Paul Doggett UK


Re: Epoxy ?

Charles Morrill
 

I’ve observed some outgassing as epoxy cures so anything that interferes with that is not a good idea.  Also curing epoxy generates heat which is usually of little concern in our model building unless you are casting thick parts.  One other point: epoxy – paint – metal/wood etc.  is only as strong a joint as the paint is.
 
Charlie
 

From: 'Hunter, James R.' jhunter@... [STMFC]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 12:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Epoxy ?
 


Jim,

 

I always leave epoxy out  "to the air" to cure.  I learned from experience years ago, that especially anything inside a house car, like weights, must be left open or the car will warp.  Secondly, I would never combine epoxy with anything else or paint it before it is cured.

 

Jim Hunter


From: STMFC@... on behalf of jimbetz@... [STMFC]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Epoxy ?
 
 

Hi guys,

  I know the basics of epoxy - combine epoxy and hardener to cause

a chemical reaction that causes it to form a strong bond to the

surface(s) it is contact with - and to itself).  But I'm not a chemist

and don't know how it works.  I know that the epoxy reacts with

the hardener and "cures" and that, for hobby products, the

amount of 'available' hardener in Part B controls/determines

how long the curing takes.  And that once cured epoxy can't

be "uncured". Uncured epoxy does not have much physical

strength and an object in it will tend to "sag" due to gravity

(or other forces).

 

  All that is fine but what I want to know is the answer to

questions such as:

 

  1) Does the epoxy use/need anything from the environment

      during the curing process.!   For example oxygen or ___

      from the air?

 

  2) Related to #1 - is "open to the air" important to the

      curing process?

 

  3) Would the presence of water, acrylic paint, or lacquer

       paint on the surface of -curing- epoxy affect how well

       it cures?  Faster?  Slower?  Inhibit full cure?  Inhibit/

       only affect the layer in contact with the curing epoxy?

 

  4) Is it a bad idea to paint over epoxy, before it is cured,

      with acrylics?

 

  5) Would using a white glue, such as KK, over epoxy

      -while it is curing- affect the cure?

 

  I have always waited until the epoxy was -fully- cured.

I know that's safe.  Is it just a good id! ea or is it required?

 

                                                                           - Jim B.

 

P.S. Yes, this is related to a build project on a STMFC

        model.


Re: Epoxy ?

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Hi guys,

  I know the basics of epoxy - combine epoxy and hardener to cause

a chemical reaction that causes it to form a strong bond to the

surface(s) it is contact with - and to itself).  But I'm not a chemist

and don't know how it works.  I know that the epoxy reacts with

the hardener and "cures" and that, for hobby products, the

amount of 'available' hardener in Part B controls/determines

how long the curing takes.


================


That is a major misconception. The curing speed is built into the chemistry of the hardener. That hardener is then expected to be mixed at the stated ratio with the resin. If you vary the proportion, you end up with either extra free resin or extra free hardener in the mix, that will never chemically combine with anything. Yes, sight variance of the mixing ratios will seem to change the cure time, but will also degrade (weaken) the physical properties, and may leave the semi cured material rubbery or sticky.


Epoxy does not need air to harden. which is why it is great for large laminations; it will harden between plies miles from the edge of the joint. It will also harden in a closed mold, making it excellent for casting. It was one of the major resins for parts cast in rubber molds fifty or so years ago, before easier to work with urethanes  were developed. All of the William J. Clouser Custom Cast work was epoxy, as were my early resin kits.


One typically doesn't paint over uncured epoxy simply because it is unknown what effect the paint may have on the cure. Some chemicals in paint MAY inhibit the cure, leaving a sticky uncured layer between the paint and cured epoxy.


Dennis Storzek 


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Paul Doggett <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

SP&S, T&P, DL&W CN, CP and StLSW all had very similar cars.

Paul Doggett UK


On 29 Dec 2017, at 17:58, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

    I know that the/some of the correct lettering is NC&StL (champ HC-646).  I have one of my flats lettered but it's at the other house.  I found a unlettered (but painted) flat and the champ decals.  So now the question.  What other lettering would be correct and at least close.  I'm trying to do a flat with a lumber load but need to decal it first.  Got some "TrainLife" lumber loads and they seem to be nice but do require some time.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems,
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Gould/Tichy 40' flat

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

  I have used these flats several times in MOW service (as an idler flat 
or crane tender, etc.).
  They are a nice model - that requires some extra weight to track well 
(not uncommon for flat car models).  I typically add weight to them 
using either lead shot between the frame members or lead sheet in 
the spaces of the underside (and once or twice both).
  Decal for your road and era of choice, add a brake wheel, wire 
grabs and steps, and air hoses ... and then weathering the deck and 
details ... and you have a very nice looking model that can be used 
for a lot of different "stand ins" ... ;-)
  Yes, I also use RR specific/"correct" flat car models.
                                                                                                - Jim B.


Re: Epoxy ?

naptownprr
 

Jim,


I always leave epoxy out  "to the air" to cure.  I learned from experience years ago, that especially anything inside a house car, like weights, must be left open or the car will warp.  Secondly, I would never combine epoxy with anything else or paint it before it is cured.


Jim Hunter


From: STMFC@... on behalf of jimbetz@... [STMFC]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Epoxy ?
 
 

Hi guys,

  I know the basics of epoxy - combine epoxy and hardener to cause

a chemical reaction that causes it to form a strong bond to the

surface(s) it is contact with - and to itself).  But I'm not a chemist

and don't know how it works.  I know that the epoxy reacts with

the hardener and "cures" and that, for hobby products, the

amount of 'available' hardener in Part B controls/determines

how long the curing takes.  And that once cured epoxy can't

be "uncured". Uncured epoxy does not have much physical

strength and an object in it will tend to "sag" due to gravity

(or other forces).


  All that is fine but what I want to know is the answer to

questions such as:


  1) Does the epoxy use/need anything from the environment

      during the curing process.!   For example oxygen or ___ 

      from the air?


  2) Related to #1 - is "open to the air" important to the

      curing process?


  3) Would the presence of water, acrylic paint, or lacquer

       paint on the surface of -curing- epoxy affect how well

       it cures?  Faster?  Slower?  Inhibit full cure?  Inhibit/

       only affect the layer in contact with the curing epoxy?


  4) Is it a bad idea to paint over epoxy, before it is cured,

      with acrylics?


  5) Would using a white glue, such as KK, over epoxy

      -while it is curing- affect the cure?


  I have always waited until the epoxy was -fully- cured.

I know that's safe.  Is it just a good id! ea or is it required?


                                                                           - Jim B.


P.S. Yes, this is related to a build project on a STMFC 

        model.

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