Date   

Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

Douglas Harding
 

George the reefers in the photos are Cudahy “Old Dutch Cleanser” reefers, which were meat reefers. They would be under direct control of the Cudahy company and not available for other kinds of loads. So no to fruit or produce loads. Cudahy reefers were seen around the country, so no surprise they are in Knoxville. You mentioned wholesale grocers, that would be the perfect destination for meat reefers.

 

As to your thought about the hatches appearing narrow, I think you are seeing a distortion caused by the extreme angle of the photographer. If you enlarge the South Omaha photo I posted, you can see the hatch covers on some Cudahy Old Dutch reefers.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Courtney via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 5:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

 

About half a mile down the tracks from these photos, heading west, were several Wholesale Grocers.  I think a Fruit company is still there today.  I don't know if that ties in with the Old Duck reefers or not.  But I was interest to see how narrow the ice or brine hatches appear to be.



George Courtney


Re: Photo: GATX 31197 & 54877 At DuPont Plant (1940)

David Wiggs
 

I stand corrected.  A faulty memory to be sure.  A lady at Habley responded to my question and corrected the picture caption, but said, there was/is a hydrogen cyanide plant at that Dupont plant in Memphis.  She also said the company is now under another name.
 
davo in Orlando


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

George Courtney
 

About half a mile down the tracks from these photos, heading west, were several Wholesale Grocers.  I think a Fruit company is still there today.  I don't know if that ties in with the Old Duck reefers or not.  But I was interest to see how narrow the ice or brine hatches appear to be.



George Courtney


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

George Courtney
 

During the Depression my mother said she'd go down to another part of this yard to pick up any spilled coal.  Also, I thought it might be a black woman taking a short cut.

George Courtney


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

Douglas Harding
 

See my post of early this afternoon.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Vera Mills
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 4:33 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

 

Hello,

And what about Patrick Cudahy?

I have two photographs of NMCX reefers 2160 and 2216 which have a PATRICK CUDAHY logo at the opposite end to the reporting marks.

TYIA.

Regards,

Glen Mills

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard
From: Thomas Evans
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 06:14:35 PDT

So now I'm confused.
There was Cudahy Packing Company of Omaha which also made & sold Old Dutch Cleanser.
There was also Cudahy Brothers which was also a packing company in Cudahy Wis. south of Milwaukee.
Did Cudahy Brothers (Wisconsin) also have their own meat reefers?
Can anyone make all this clear?

Tom E.


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

Vera Mills
 

Hello,
And what about Patrick Cudahy?
I have two photographs of NMCX reefers 2160 and 2216 which have a PATRICK CUDAHY logo at the opposite end to the reporting marks.
TYIA.
Regards,
Glen Mills
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard
From: Thomas Evans
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 06:14:35 PDT

So now I'm confused.
There was Cudahy Packing Company of Omaha which also made & sold Old Dutch Cleanser.
There was also Cudahy Brothers which was also a packing company in Cudahy Wis. south of Milwaukee.
Did Cudahy Brothers (Wisconsin) also have their own meat reefers?
Can anyone make all this clear?

Tom E.


Re: Photo: Gas Storage Tank On Boston & Maine Flat Car (1920)

ROGER HINMAN
 

if you go to the B&MRHS site under on line Archives, they’ve recently added copies of car acquisition books for that time period; they show these series of flat cars as acquired by the B&M in 1901 from the Fitchburg RR which they absorbed and the FRR built these in the late 1890s.


Roger Hinman


On Sep 29, 2020, at 11:05 PM, Thomas Evans via groups.io <tomkevans@...> wrote:

It looks like these 60' B&M flatcars date back to at least 1901 (but probably not 1897) according to the on-line ORER/OREG's,
however they are mixed in with a number of shorter "special flat cars,' so we don't know how many there were nor their specific numbers at that time.

Tom E.


Re: Cudahy Meat Packing

ROGER HINMAN
 

The Cudahy Wisconsin library has a lot of material on the company there, which  is still in operation albeit under different name; the former NRC repair facility still stands there also

Roger Hinman

On Sep 30, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

I’m starting a new thread for discussion of Cudahy.
The map I posted this morning, came from a Cudahy Year book, published I think in 1932. It shows, at that time, the slaughter houses, branch houses, produce houses and Dutch Cleanser facilities. I found the Cudahy Year Books in the Iowa State University Library (our state AG school), in their dusty old back room files. Ie feet on the ground research.
 
Cudahy Meat Packing and Cudahy Brothers (later known as Patrick Cudahy), were two different and separate meat packing concerns. One was based in Omaha, started by Michael Cudahy and Philip Armour. The other was in Cudahy WIS and started by Patrick Cudahy (also connected to Armour). The founders were brothers, who both had connections to Armour via Plankinton, but they parted ways before the turn of the last century.
 
Cudahy Meat Packing had a reefer facility in Calumet Indiana. Reporting marks were CRLX. I cannot not address the paint/lettering schemes to a large extent. Attached is an image of a Cudahy car from the Yearbook, so this would be accurate for circa 1932. Cudahy also leased Mather Reefers (see ad), which also appears to be early 30s. Attached is a photo of South Omaha showing two Cudahy Dutch Cleanser reefers circa 1925-1928. All photos I have of Cudahy reefers after 1935 show the plain Jane lettering scheme that came into being after the 1934 “Billboard ban” law. P/L changed through the years, so era and photos are important.
 
Cudahy Brothers started and owned Northern Refrigerator Line, INC, also in Cudahy WIS. This included the Northern Refrigerator Car Co. Reporting Marks were NRC. Cudahy Bros sold their reefer company to Merchants Despatch Transportation in 1928. Reporting marks were MDT
 
As to the source of my information regarding the location of Cudahy facilities, the above mentioned Company Year Books are one source, as they contained photos of facilities and dates when acquired, along with the map. Much of the information was not on the internet, it required visiting libraries and digging through old files, books, documents and magazines. National Provisioner is a trade publication for the meat packing industry and can be found in some state Ag School libraries. Members of this group have provided information through the years. Of course the internet continues to surprise me. But you sometimes have to visit local libraries, local historical society websites, genealogy websites, and other places we do not normally think about when looking for information on railroads or industries.
 
As for the person walking in the train yard near the cars that started this conversation. In early years, before fences around tracks, many folks lived near the rail yards and often traversed them to get back and forth. Esp in the early years, like when the photos were taken. I can’t tell if it is a man or woman, they are just wearing a large flowing light colored coat or dress. 
 
Doug Harding
 

Attachments:



Re: Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

Eric Hansmann
 

I agree. This is a Big Four boxcar. The lettering follows what the NYC was applying to their cars in this timeframe. Part of the NYCL oval can be seen to the right of the banner.

 

It’s interesting to see the build date stencil look newer than the weigh date stencil. You do not see that everyday.

 

And I’m surprised nobody has commented on the Explosives placard on the door and linking that to the pinto beans banner.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 12:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

 

Hi Bob,

 

Looking at this image, I think the reporting marks might actually be CCC&StL 9260, not ATSF. If this is the case, it is from series 9001-9984, 36ft IL, 40-ton, 167 cars listed in the 12-1930 ORER

 

The railroad workers making chalk marks on the side of the car are going to run out of space soon!

 

Claus Schlund

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 12:48 PM

Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

 

Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

A photo from the University of New Mexico:

https://econtent.unm.edu/digital/collection/gkcpc/id/26/rec/146

The photo can be enlarged.

Description:

"Train car shipped in November of 1914 with goods donated by Gross, Kelly & Co. to the Belgium Relief Commission, run by Herbert Hoover. Gross, Kelly & Co. was one of the pioneer wholesale and retail mercantile companies in the Southwest."

Do pinto beans go well with Belgium waffles?

Note the placard on the car reads "Explosives". (Don't go there, readers.)

I could not find a listing for this car, built in 1897, among my Santa Fe records but the end reporting marks appear to include "&SF". Perhaps this car was from a subsidiary road.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Boxcar Door Stenciling (Circa 1943)

Guy Wilber
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

The door is stenciled "9-5", "10-6" and "8-E".

The white rectangle above the 3” white stripe indicates that the car’s Evans Auto~Loaders are stored and inoperable. They may have simply been wired, or (as was often done during WW II) spot welded to the storage clips.

The distance from the floor of the car to the bottom of the racks is 9’-5”. 10’-6” is the height from the floor (at center) to the peak of the roof. The car is equipped with 8 tie down turnbuckles with chains stored within the floor tubes. Type “E” racks.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

akerboomk
 

That’s a lot of chalk marks on the car side!

 

I’m wondering if the end reporting marks are “…&SD” (or “SL”) ??


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Photo: Gas Storage Tank On Boston & Maine Flat Car (1920)

akerboomk
 

More info on these flats can be found here:

 

            https://www.bmrrhs.org/flat_32000_series/

 

For the 32060-32065 specifically, see the table “Individual / small group listings (including dimensions) 32040-32099”

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Cudahy Meat Packing

Douglas Harding
 

I’m starting a new thread for discussion of Cudahy.

The map I posted this morning, came from a Cudahy Year book, published I think in 1932. It shows, at that time, the slaughter houses, branch houses, produce houses and Dutch Cleanser facilities. I found the Cudahy Year Books in the Iowa State University Library (our state AG school), in their dusty old back room files. Ie feet on the ground research.

 

Cudahy Meat Packing and Cudahy Brothers (later known as Patrick Cudahy), were two different and separate meat packing concerns. One was based in Omaha, started by Michael Cudahy and Philip Armour. The other was in Cudahy WIS and started by Patrick Cudahy (also connected to Armour). The founders were brothers, who both had connections to Armour via Plankinton, but they parted ways before the turn of the last century.

 

Cudahy Meat Packing had a reefer facility in Calumet Indiana. Reporting marks were CRLX. I cannot not address the paint/lettering schemes to a large extent. Attached is an image of a Cudahy car from the Yearbook, so this would be accurate for circa 1932. Cudahy also leased Mather Reefers (see ad), which also appears to be early 30s. Attached is a photo of South Omaha showing two Cudahy Dutch Cleanser reefers circa 1925-1928. All photos I have of Cudahy reefers after 1935 show the plain Jane lettering scheme that came into being after the 1934 “Billboard ban” law. P/L changed through the years, so era and photos are important.

 

Cudahy Brothers started and owned Northern Refrigerator Line, INC, also in Cudahy WIS. This included the Northern Refrigerator Car Co. Reporting Marks were NRC. Cudahy Bros sold their reefer company to Merchants Despatch Transportation in 1928. Reporting marks were MDT

 

As to the source of my information regarding the location of Cudahy facilities, the above mentioned Company Year Books are one source, as they contained photos of facilities and dates when acquired, along with the map. Much of the information was not on the internet, it required visiting libraries and digging through old files, books, documents and magazines. National Provisioner is a trade publication for the meat packing industry and can be found in some state Ag School libraries. Members of this group have provided information through the years. Of course the internet continues to surprise me. But you sometimes have to visit local libraries, local historical society websites, genealogy websites, and other places we do not normally think about when looking for information on railroads or industries.

 

As for the person walking in the train yard near the cars that started this conversation. In early years, before fences around tracks, many folks lived near the rail yards and often traversed them to get back and forth. Esp in the early years, like when the photos were taken. I can’t tell if it is a man or woman, they are just wearing a large flowing light colored coat or dress.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Photo: GATX 31197 & 54877 At DuPont Plant (1940)

charlie9
 

The plant on the ICRR at Memphis did produce hydrogen cyanide.  The plant was located at Woodstock where the passenger and freight mains split just North of Memphis.  In later years that product was shipped in distinctive cream colored tank cars with red stripes.  I remember seeing big placard signs on the cars that pretty much said "if you can smell this, you are already dead."

I wonder what cars were used for Hydrogen Cyanide shipments in the steam era.  Anybody know or have any photos?  I am too young to remember what cars they were using back then.

Charlie Schildt (grouchy German)


Re: Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

earlyrail
 

Closer to the photo date.
series 9000 - 9999  60,000 cpy  918 car
Jan 1915 ORER

Howard Garner


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

earlyrail
 

My apologies.
My mail reader did not show the first image.
When I when to group.io directly all three tanks showed.

Howard Garner


Re: Photo: Boxcar Door Stenciling (Circa 1943)

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Chaparro asked:
"Photo: Boxcar Door Stenciling (Circa 1943)

A photo from the Detroit Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A257918

Click and hold to enlarge photo.

The door is stenciled "9-5", "10-6" and "8-E".

Translation?"

Note that the car is a Pere Marquette automobile boxcar and has the stripe indicating that it's equipped with an Evans Auto Rack. "9-5" indicates IH with the racks stowed; "10-6" indicates IH with the racks deployed, and "8-E" indicates the specific type of rack.


Ben Hom


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, I see crow is on the menu today . . .

 

I apologize for confusing ODC and Bon Ami.  Bon Ami contains feldspar and doesn’t scratch.  I cannot vouch for the performance of ODC.

 

The plant I mentioned (later verified as being in Manchester CT) is where Bon Ami is, or was, manufactured.  The can today says “Bon Ami Company, Kansas City MO 64101.”  I do not know where their plants are today.  It also is the can that states “Original 1886 Formula.”

 

My remarks about using ODC on brass should be that I have used Bon Ami on brass with great success.  I cannot confirm whether ODC is equally harmless.

 

I hope that this clarifies what I intended to say.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 11:21 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

 

I too would like to know the answer to Bill S,’s question.  There is an excellent modeler in this area, Jim Dufour, who’s modeled the Cheshire branch, thee connecting the B&M main line at South Ashburnham to Keene NH.  Included in his railroad is a model accurately depicting a very modest Feldspar mine.  Jim has waybill records showing that the Feldspar was shipped to a Old Dutch Cleanser plant along the New Haven, IIRC, in the vicinity of Manchester CT.  (I could be entirely wrong on the destination, but I am sure it was in CT.).  Doug’s citing of plants in

 

Doug Harding’s citing of

Old Dutch Cleanser Plants were located in Los Angeles, Omaha, and Toronto

May well be accurate, but of a later time.  The Old Dutch Cleanser container cites that it was developed in 1886.

 

Incidentally, I won’t have any other cleanser in the house.  I find the competitors, Comet, Ajax, etc., tend to scratch, whereas the little just hatched chick on the ODC label, with the slogan “Hasn’t scratched yet,” is accurate.  It will clean some egregiously dirty dishes without scratching them (ask me how I know).  I have used it when stripping brass models with an old, soft toothbrush to remove stubborn paint in crevices.  Works well, without any visible damage to the model surface.

 

Incidentally, while googling (because I could not remember feldspar) I came across the following interesting webpage:

http://www.mine-engineer.com/mining/dutch.htm

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of erieblt2
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:34 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

 

Mr. Harding, where did you get the information as to where the plants were located? Is there a book(now ‘site’) that lists company info? We have source/info books for railroads ie ‘The Official Guide’ . Is there an equivalent for industries? Thank you. Respectfully, Bill S.    PS I had to look up the earlier reference to ‘foobies’! 

 

On Sep 30, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Thomas Evans via groups.io <tomkevans@...> wrote:

So now I'm confused.
There was Cudahy Packing Company of Omaha which also made & sold Old Dutch Cleanser.
There was also Cudahy Brothers which was also a packing company in Cudahy Wis. south of Milwaukee.
Did Cudahy Brothers (Wisconsin) also have their own meat reefers?
Can anyone make all this clear?

Tom E.


Re: Old Photos from Southern Railway in Knoxville yard

Tony Thompson
 

mel perry wrote:

thats a rarity, to find three "old dutch"/
cudahy in the same yard, hooked
together, unless there was a plant
close by?, always wonder if the "old
dutch"/cudahy was a foobie?

     You obviously haven't ever looked at the book on Billboard Reefers by Richard Hendrickson and Ed Kaminski.

Tony Thompson




Re: Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bob,
 
Looking at this image, I think the reporting marks might actually be CCC&StL 9260, not ATSF. If this is the case, it is from series 9001-9984, 36ft IL, 40-ton, 167 cars listed in the 12-1930 ORER
 
The railroad workers making chalk marks on the side of the car are going to run out of space soon!
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 12:48 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

Photo: ATSF (?) Boxcar 9260 With Pinto Bean Load (1914)

A photo from the University of New Mexico:

https://econtent.unm.edu/digital/collection/gkcpc/id/26/rec/146

The photo can be enlarged.

Description:

"Train car shipped in November of 1914 with goods donated by Gross, Kelly & Co. to the Belgium Relief Commission, run by Herbert Hoover. Gross, Kelly & Co. was one of the pioneer wholesale and retail mercantile companies in the Southwest."

Do pinto beans go well with Belgium waffles?

Note the placard on the car reads "Explosives". (Don't go there, readers.)

I could not find a listing for this car, built in 1897, among my Santa Fe records but the end reporting marks appear to include "&SF". Perhaps this car was from a subsidiary road.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

3241 - 3260 of 181087