Date   
Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank car

Doug Forbes
 

Thanks to all for the suggestions on how to proceed as well as the photos.  I think I have a much better handle on where to go and what to do.  Thanks again. 

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

James SANDIFER
 

Titchy decals are extremely thick. There is no way I have found to blend them into a car. It is like using vinyl letters on a car. They would be fine on a 1.5” scale, but not HO.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Huber via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 10:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

 

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand everyone wanting just throw them away. If you've already ordered and paid for them why not at least test them and see if they are good to use? Apparently from what I've read here and other places some sets are fine and others are too thick. If they are decals for a RR or company you thought enough of to buy for a piece of equipment then try them to see if they meet your standards? If they don't cut the mustard then they are easy to remove and THEN throw them away?

 

I haven't tried them yet but have purchased several different sets. Having been in the hobby for so many years I've worked with most brands and many have some unusual characteristics and all I doubt if they can be much worse than the crap from Walthers we used for years.

 

Just my 2¢

 

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

 

 

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 09:35:40 AM CST, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

 

 

I have a set. I’ll throw them away and save you the 8 bucks.

 

 

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Drew Bunn
 



On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jim Dick wrote:

> Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Basically. In the trucking world "detention charges" are what we bill the Receiver for excessive unloading time. I'll give you 2 hours to unload my trailer, after that it's $100/hour to keep me waiting around and tying up my equipment.. so get movin'.
__________________________________
Drew Bunn
 
drew.r.bunn@...
 
Cell - (905) 483-0758

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  

      Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  

      The retired PFE Car Service Manager I interviewed stated that partial unloadings were rare in his experience, but that was the produce business. I have heard it was fairly common in the meat business.

Tony Thompson



Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

np328
 

    Here is another file I found concerning billing, and copies of waybills.  Presented not to make fun of accountants. However I have to wonder how much time and labor was expended here.
And of the thought that in the 1950's, five dollars was worth a lot more. 
This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  
     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  
From NP files found at the Minnesota Historical Society. ( After I die, I hope some day to have my ashes spread in the NP files at the MHS and then maybe, I can get in some real research time.)
Again presented for your education or amusement.                                                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
   

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

np328
 

    Paul, I presented several years ago at Chicago and CCB RPMs about the usage of reefers and in winter they were busiest. January, February saw about 100 percent usage in AAR notes I found and used as a basis for the presentation following reefer loading bi-monthly for 1956-57.  

     I'll attach the image and the yellow areas are where they definitely needed to be used (in protective service) to keep things like canned goods, pharmaceuticals, and other items safe. The red areas are where crops were ripening and ready for transit, and the orange areas are where potatoes were being shipped, more or less as a year round commodity. If potatoes freeze they get mealy. Potatoes I found were more or less shipped year round and if a person does not know what else to waybill on a reefer, potatoes is a safe bet.  

      Oh wait, here is a list I put in the files some time ago: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Perishable%20Commodities,%20definition%20and%20list%20of  
John Hile uploaded these:https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/P%20P%20Tariff%2013%20Rule%2036.pdf   Item 1140 (Florist stock - ferns) a few pages down is more common than you would think load coming east on the NP in reefers. How often when you see bouquets of flowers, do you see ferns used to accent the bunch? 
      Note in either of these lists, all the items preceded by the numeral 1, items that need to be protected against cold or heat. Or the number 3, items that needed to be protected against cold. And if a commodity that needed to be protected were loaded in the yellow area or destined for the yellow area, it would have been placed in a reefer.  How often do we see this modeled or model it?
     Here is another upload by John:   https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/P%20P%20Tariff%2013%20Section%206.pdf

     OK, after one presentation, someone came up to me and stated only, "However I don't model winter." I'm not sure why they thought that was pertinent however, lets follow up on it. 
     Reefers according to all the data I have ever seen were some of the top earners on the rails. They also were bought on bonds (borrowed cash) that had to be paid off. And standing still made no money. They make money (per mile) when they are moving unloaded or loaded and the most when loaded. However we have talked about that here before. 
    So they make money in when in protected service and when fruits and vegetables ripen and need to be shipped.  What do they do the rest of the year?   The 3 for 1 keeps them moving. 

    The three for one substitution here" https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Refrigerator%20Cars%20for%20Box%20Cars     John Barry was kind enough to roll eleven pages into one pdf at the bottom.  The 3 for 1 or 2 for 1 (simplified) means for the price of one boxcar you can get up to two or three reefers.  As we have talked about it here before, it is meant to get reefers home, with a load if possible.
        So does that increase or decrease the odds of seeing reefers in a train consist, (generally speaking)?  I'd think it increases the chances.

        And the links above by myself or John Hile give a broad list of commodities to model.  I think John's is better. A boxcar of canned goods to a food wholesaler or two reefers of the same canned goods? With the substitution allowance either is perfectly plausible.  
       
 I started the above mentioned presentation with the thought - Do I have too many reefers? I still wonder however using some in protected service or under the 3 for 1 rule, it is not a crisis.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim Dick - St. Paul 
     


Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Donald B. Valentine
 

Partial unloading has been covered before if not here on the Bull Shipper's list. It was a common thing in many
less populated areas and when most people were more honest.  The business at the end of the route from a meat
packers branch house would have their meet loaded first, then it would be papered over in the car and that for the
the next to last stop would be loaded next. This could go on until the car was filled but rarely for more than four
stops from what I've been told so there was no reicing required in the majority of such loadings.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Greg Martin wrote:

There was per diem to be paid on an empty car and a reefer was an expensive car to have stuck online.

   Well, not really. Reefers were paid on mileage, loaded or empty, NOT on per diem. That's why Western reefer owners like SFRD and PFE had agents in every eastern city, to "encourage" the yardmasters to move empty reefers back west. With no per diem to pay, they would otherwise have been in no hurry.

Tony Thompson



Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Greg Martin
 


Empty milesge was huge especially if you weren't in the loaded revenue stream.

 I don't believe the issue of returning an empty car back to the home road happened as often as one might think. I think the local clerks did a stand up job to protect their crews. 

There was per diem to be paid on an empty car and a reefer was an expensive car to have stuck online.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 11/12/19 9:09 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Bruce Smith wrote:

There is a lot of data, real data (as opposed to anecdotes), that supports a high amount of reefer traffic on the PRR. The PRR was the third highest conveyor of produce in the nation,  behind SP and UP (beating AT&SF) and the number one conveyer of loaded produce refrigerator cars east of the Mississippi. 

       I am not one who disputes these facts. What I always point out, which was pointed out to me by a retired PFE executive, is that PRR had the highest perishable damage claims, PER TON MILE, of any railroad. That isn't just a lot of claims because they were a big railroad, it's a lot of claims, period. And it's the reason that PFE agents advised shippers to route on railroads OTHER THAN the PRR as far as possible.
       But as Bruce says, the PRR was not entirely avoidable throughout much of the northeast and in the biggest cities of the day, New York and Philadelphia. Empty return was not as time critical, so PRR may have had a huge share in empty mileage, as Bruce mentions.

Tony Thompson




--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

New video of my layout

Tony Thompson
 

For anyone who might be interested, there's a new commercial video that has just been posted of my layout (link below) and maybe also to my blog post about it. The blog post is here:

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2019/11/a-new-video-of-my-layout.html

and the video, if you want to jump straight to it on YouTube, it's here:

https://youtu.be/RUfmRvun2_w

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Re: NP Refrigerators

Tim O'Connor
 

The monad goes back to some time after 1893. It was applied to some rolling stock in the 1920s.

On 11/12/2019 8:37 PM, radiodial868 wrote:
Interesting. The Monad was in use in 1931?  Man, I've had to discard the Monad decals on all the NP Boxcars I've built (1939) per the Sunshine data sheets, and you tell me that the reefers had it all that time? May have to look into Andy Carlson's kit bash, although not sure what ends to use to match the radial roof casting from Central Valley Model Works.
RJ Dial
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: NP Refrigerators

radiodial868
 

Interesting. The Monad was in use in 1931?  Man, I've had to discard the Monad decals on all the NP Boxcars I've built (1939) per the Sunshine data sheets, and you tell me that the reefers had it all that time? May have to look into Andy Carlson's kit bash, although not sure what ends to use to match the radial roof casting from Central Valley Model Works.
RJ Dial

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

np328
 

        Of the trip frequencies, I recently noted a reefer (in other paperwork) that made a partial unloading, then a second stop where it was fully unloaded. This would certainly slow down mileage covered. I mention this because I am not aware of anyone who has mention modeling partial unloading of a reefer.  
      
         I have no information on how common this was. I am aware that some reefers traveled branchlines and made multiple stops however reefers used this way (at least on the NP) were home road reefers in captive service. 

         Can someone explain the term "detentions" in connection with reefer travel.  Tony, I looked through the index on the PFE book however not there.  I'll post in another thread some paperwork where the term detention is used several times.                                                                                                                             Jim Dick 

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Tim O'Connor
 


Yawn. It's a ridiculous argument. The PRR served the industrial heartland and it was
an enormous and important corporation. It was also one of the many that suffered from
the postwar migration to the west and south - you can almost watch the ton-miles going
from the PRR to the SP for much of the postwar period. Weird routings existed because
railroads were COMPETITIVE (thanks to the ICC and tariff rules) and those routings were
not necessarily faster, shorter, or better. You never heard of the traffic manager
being taken out to eat by the railroads' sales reps? Business ain't charity, but it
also isn't entirely rational.




On 11/12/2019 4:54 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
 Hi Tony,

     The short answer is that if the Pennsy had been in business, instead of pretending to be, the Alphabet Route
would not have been. The Erie was a hell of a railroad and I'm sorry it's gone. The time per ton mile always
seemed to be excellent and given the profile of their route from eastern Ohio further east one has to give them
credit for the excellent service they provided. If you look at those figure again It is not only the Erie that had
volume, it was the roads between them andthe four northern New England states. This is why the B&M numbers
were so much higher than the Penny's New Haven partner as well. Most of what the New Haven did carry came
via Maybrook, the Erie's New Haven connection, judging by most photos I've seen, rather then via car floats from
the Pennsy at Greenville, NJ. I know Bruce and others disagree with but to me the Pennsy was little more than
its reporting marks, all PR but not much service. I wish the figures included the Canadian roads as the CPR
carried a fair amount of meat traffic into Northern New England as well but I have no figures for the volume.

My best, Don Valentine


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Donald B. Valentine
 

 Hi Tony,

     The short answer is that if the Pennsy had been in business, instead of pretending to be, the Alphabet Route
would not have been. The Erie was a hell of a railroad and I'm sorry it's gone. The time per ton mile always
seemed to be excellent and given the profile of their route from eastern Ohio further east one has to give them
credit for the excellent service they provided. If you look at those figure again It is not only the Erie that had
volume, it was the roads between them andthe four northern New England states. This is why the B&M numbers
were so much higher than the Penny's New Haven partner as well. Most of what the New Haven did carry came
via Maybrook, the Erie's New Haven connection, judging by most photos I've seen, rather then via car floats from
the Pennsy at Greenville, NJ. I know Bruce and others disagree with but to me the Pennsy was little more than
its reporting marks, all PR but not much service. I wish the figures included the Canadian roads as the CPR
carried a fair amount of meat traffic into Northern New England as well but I have no figures for the volume.

My best, Don Valentine

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Donald B. Valentine
 

Decals are only as good as the film they are printed on, Roger, and thhat seems to be the trouble we
continually hear about Tichy decals. From whAT I hear elsewere the only place one can purchase good
decal sheets lately are in England. Their decal pricing is also better as is that from Italy. The old
expression is the consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds but if the film is not of consistent and
constant quality no one is going to be successful in the decal field.

Just another point of view, Don Valentine

Re: Square brake staffs, was New images on Steamtown site today

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Thanks Richard!  When combined with a ree other photos that I have I think I can do a reasonable approximation.   Just wish I didn't have to.

Bill Pardie




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard Townsend via Groups.Io" <richtownsend@...>
Date: 11/12/19 10:13 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Square brake staffs, was New images on Steamtown site today


Here's a photo of a USAX flat car's brake wheel and square staff I took at the Nat"l Transportation Museum outside St. Louis.

IMG_1511 (1).JPG


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Greer <studegator@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 11:01 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Square brake staffs, was New images on Steamtown site today

I visited an antique dealer in Orlando this past weekend and happened to spot these so I took some photos for the group. Unfortunately there were no manufacturers markings on them that I could see.

Brent

________________________________
Dr. J. Brent Greer

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Kemal Mumcu
 

Scale wheels are useful when constructing models. I have some P87 wheelsets and I use them to visualize truck ride height. It's easier to see if the model needs raising or lowering. Colin Meikle

Re: Square brake staffs, was New images on Steamtown site today

Richard Townsend
 


Here's a photo of a USAX flat car's brake wheel and square staff I took at the Nat"l Transportation Museum outside St. Louis.



Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Greer <studegator@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 11:01 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Square brake staffs, was New images on Steamtown site today

I visited an antique dealer in Orlando this past weekend and happened to spot these so I took some photos for the group. Unfortunately there were no manufacturers markings on them that I could see.

Brent

________________________________
Dr. J. Brent Greer

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Jake Schaible
 

As an N Scale guy, getting a chuckle to see HO guys chatter about decal thickness.  Welcome to our world!  

The topic of the thickness of Tichy decals comes up from time to time over on TheRailWire.net.  If I was to summarize it?  I'd say, what is clear is that thickness is:

a) somewhat related to the specs of the rig, paper and ink used,

b) somewhat related to the specific image and color sought to reproduce, and

c) somewhat related to communication between the printer and the client.   

So it would be wrong to make a general statement of "Tichy's decals are too thick".  Sure, for some decals, of some images, on some settings, on some surfaces, Tichy might not be able to produce what you'd like.   For us N scale guy, we can say that about nearly all decals.  

But for the sake of compassion, I will share some sample data posted back in 2017 on TRW comparing thickness of Tichy's inkjet decals to say the Microscale screen printed water slides looking at very comparable black ink datablock on new PFE decal sets:

Using my ol' Starrett Vernier micrometer caliper, I have The Tichy backer paper, adhesive and carrier film at a dead 0.0090" and over the datablock, a 0.0100".  So a black only ink height is just 0.001"

The Microscale set, the backer paper to carrier is 0.0065", over data block, 0.0071".  So 0.0006.... yes, the Tichy's (more legible) ink is 0.0004" thicker than the Microscales.  But it's not ink build up that draws my eye.

The Tichy backer paper / adhesive & carrier, is also clearly thicker.  Some of this may be irrelevant as it could be that Tichy uses a thicker backer, but it could be a thicker carrier which might account for issue of curl.  And if this is a real issue, it may be fixable for Don to switch to a finer stock on which to print. 

Obvious, other colors and multilayer prints may be thicker.  And your results may vary.  

Off topic:  All this leaves me thinking the scale  model decal market might still benefit from new technology - one that can yield smaller / finer fonts at higher resolution, and not dependent on the limitation of ink jet or silk screen.  Kind of intrigued by the advances in intaglio microprinting and advanced inks, and wonder if such can be applied to develop waterslide decals ... but I'm certainly no expert here!