Date   

Re: Wedge Snowplow UP 900021

O Fenton Wells
 

Way cool


On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 5:10 PM Bob Chapman <chapbob4014@...> wrote:
I thought the group would be interested in this neat kitbash opportunity, photographed by friend Chip Sherman after clearing snow last week on UP's Yoder Subdivision in Nebraska. According to Chip, the plow was built in 1949 -- a definite antique. 
 
Bob Chapman 



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Valuation Reports...

Douglas Harding
 

Attached is a digital copy of Records Relating to North American Railroads, Compiled by David Pfeiffer, Reference Information Paper 91
National Archives and Records Administration, Washington, DC 2001
, which tells you about the railroad related holdings of the National Archives.

And this link guides you through the attached document. https://www.rlhs.org/Services/Guides/

 

The first time I met David he told me what the Archives has was what the ICC gave them. He explained that there were records missing, because the ICC did not have them. It could have been a file left on someone’s desk, or a box that had been “borrowed”. The ICC records were often what they received from the railroads themselves. So in short the records were not complete, and that I may or may not find what I was looking for.

 

In addition many railroad prepared work in advance of the valuation. The M&StL, for example, had sketches of certain depots prepared and submitted to the ICC, because the original drawings disappeared. The CNW Historical Society has reproduced these depot sketches in a spiral bound book https://cnwhs.org/wp1/product/mstl-depot-sketches/  So be sure to check with the railroad Historical Society to see what they have published.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Valuation Reports...

Jack Burgess
 

I have an extensive 1914 California Railroad Commission Physical Evaluation of the Yosemite Valley Railroad. I’m assuming that the State did it since the YVRR was not an interstate railroad. But it was for the same purpose…to set rates for shipping. It includes everything from locomotives and freight and passenger cars to grade crossings. No photos but enough information for a civil engineer and others to determine a replacement value for everything. Since a higher replacement value would mean higher shipping rates, the YVRR President continued to battle with the Commission for the next 10 years or so. (Maybe the railroad knew that the valuation was correct but could continue to charge the same rates until the valuation was finally approved?)

 

Jack Burgess

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 4:14 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Equipment Registers On Disk – Source?

 

Tony,

 

Thanks for the clarification. So this could mean that other railroads outside California that took photos did so on their own initiative, or at the direction of their own state governments. This could explain why some railroads are not represented by valuation photos, unless perhaps they did take photos that later went into the trash.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Here's a question particularly for you, but of possible use in the valuation thread we've been following. Somewhere I had the idea that the Southern Pacific's extensive collection of valuation photos were paid for by the railroad. If so, was this a government requirement, or just the way the SP chose to document its physical plant at that time? 

 

Most if not all of the SP valuation photos, taken by the railroad for both rolling stock and structures, were taken in 1912 and 1913 in response to a mandate from the California Railroad Commission (predecessor of today's PUC) to conduct valuation, well in advance of the federal mandate.

       I have located a lot of the freight car photos from this program and used them extensively in my freight car books. See for example in my Volume 5, page 365 ff.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: Equipment Registers On Disk – Source?

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Tony,

Thanks for the clarification. So this could mean that other railroads outside California that took photos did so on their own initiative, or at the direction of their own state governments. This could explain why some railroads are not represented by valuation photos, unless perhaps they did take photos that later went into the trash.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Here's a question particularly for you, but of possible use in the valuation thread we've been following. Somewhere I had the idea that the Southern Pacific's extensive collection of valuation photos were paid for by the railroad. If so, was this a government requirement, or just the way the SP chose to document its physical plant at that time? 

Most if not all of the SP valuation photos, taken by the railroad for both rolling stock and structures, were taken in 1912 and 1913 in response to a mandate from the California Railroad Commission (predecessor of today's PUC) to conduct valuation, well in advance of the federal mandate.
       I have located a lot of the freight car photos from this program and used them extensively in my freight car books. See for example in my Volume 5, page 365 ff.

Tony Thompson




Wedge Snowplow UP 900021

Bob Chapman
 

I thought the group would be interested in this neat kitbash opportunity, photographed by friend Chip Sherman after clearing snow last week on UP's Yoder Subdivision in Nebraska. According to Chip, the plow was built in 1949 -- a definite antique. 
 
Bob Chapman 


Re: Ellsworth Coal Line ?

 

John,

I was able to find this:

Coal Mines (D, E) of Vermilion County, Illinois - Coal and Coal Mining (hinton-gen.com)

Scroll down about 90% of the page and there is a good company description of an operation near Danville IL.

Also see:

Ellsworth Coal Company - ILMINES WIKI (illinois.edu)

Regards,

Mike


Re: ICC valuation

mopacfirst
 

The Missouri Pacific Historical Society published a book on the Iron Mountain (MoPac) valuation reports for Arkansas.  This book was written by Charlie Duckworth, and as the book notes, represents a fortunate circumstance where the ICC valuation reports on the division were reunited with many of the photos taken at the same time, supplemented with related archival material from the era.

http://www.mopac.org/store/books-books-books/item/534-down-the-iron-mountain-route-n

Ron Merrick


Re: ICC valuation

Tony Thompson
 

Mike Schleigh wrote:

I suspect this issue of inclusion of rolling stock details within the Valuation Reports may have been a railroad-to-railroad decision.  Some have already reported that they found no references to the rolling stock in what they inspected at the National Archives.

Not sure where this idea came from, but rolling stock was very definitely part of EVERY valuation. Remember, the purpose was to establish the investment value of each railroad, so that a fair "return on investment" could be accomplished with regulated freight rates (this never happened).
      There are several valuation accounts for rolling stock, previously mentioned, such as Account 53 for freight cars, for EVERY railroad. I have the SP accounts, as one example, which I purchased from the late Bill Edson. 

Tony Thompson




Re: ICC valuation

Schleigh Mike
 

Hello Group!

I suspect this issue of inclusion of rolling stock details within the Valuation Reports may have been a railroad-to-railroad decision.  Some have already reported that they found no references to the rolling stock in what they inspected at the National Archives.  I have seen other material that was clearly a part of the 'total' valuation that included fairly detailed information on the rolling stock such as type of loco, road number series, builder, date, cylinder size, type of service, weight, and--in the vein of "valuation"----replacement cost.  Passenger, freight, and non-revenue cars were included.  The material I saw was for fairly small railroads possessing only dozens of locomotives and at best a few thousand cars.  It may not be how the big railroads addressed this issue but, surely, the replacement cost of all assets was part of the objective of the Valuation Reports.

Mention was made of Mr. Willam Edson and that he sometimes provided these finer details of some railroads.  Bill was perhaps most famous for publishing several railroad rosters of steam locomotives.  He passed away several years ago, sadly, and is missed.

Regards from Grove City, Penna. where spring has arrived by calendar and weather behavior----Mike Schleigh



On Monday, March 22, 2021, 06:34:01 PM EDT, lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...> wrote:


I have a question. What sort of documentation was done of rolling stock in the 1917-19 era ICC valuation of the railroads? Were pictures taken of the various classes of rolling stock like they did of the physical plant?
Is such information available in the National Archives?
Larry King


Re: ICC valuation

A&Y Dave in MD
 

David Pfeiffer is retired.  There is no one there right now that fills his shoes in terms of passion for railroads, although many of the archivists are friendly and helpful. David is still active--I hadn't seen him in the year prior to the pandemic shutting down access, but the archivists talked about him coming in to visit.

As to the original question: until the pandemic I was visiting the Archives regularly, about once a month for two years.  I have yet to explore everything related to the A&Y, a Southern-owned shortline without revenue rolling stock.  The annual reports (which were done prior to and after the Valuation) contain summaries of rolling stock and locomotives, but they are not detailed.  There may be more yet to find when I start researching the Southern proper, but you would think that if detailed photos and other information on rolling stock were available, David P. or some other fan would have already pointed it out.   You may find there are unique records for a given railroad, but I doubt that there is a generally useful "treasure trove" with respect to rolling stock photos and details in NARA II.

If someone like Mr. Kott would be able to provide the retrieval information for the books that contained the images he photocopied, I'd be willing to submit a request slip and use my digital scanner to obtain a more detailed set of images at my convenience.  I aim to digitize virtually all of the A&Y records and I'm fortunate to live within 30 miles of College Park.  So once the pandemic lifts, NARA is open to the public again, and I'm vaccinated, I'll be resuming my trips.  I still work full time and I'm mostly interested in the A&Y and Southern, but I like to help others similarly fascinated--so long as it is still a hobby and not a second job.
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Re: ICC valuation

akerboomk
 

The “go to” guy for ICC valuation data at NARA Suitland used to be David Pfeiffer

Not sure if he’s retired by now (I last emailed him approx. 2003)

I have an email for him if you want to try it, message me privately for it.

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: ICC valuation

Douglas Harding
 

I did not look at rolling stock records, but during my forays into the ICC records at the National Archives in Suitland and later College Park, I have found very few photos. I was mostly looking at structures and ROW reports. Never saw anything related to rolling stock. I was looking at roads that operated in Iowa. Reports varied from scribbles to neatly printed plain text describing the structure, to crude sketches, to field drawings that would make a draftsman proud. The ICC used a wide variety of people to do the evaluation: architects, engineers, accountants, draftsman. If I recall, what photos were taken were often because someone brought their own camera. On one trip I made over 2000 photocopies, and found six photos, which I also photocopied. (in the days before I had a laptop and scanner). The photos were small, may have been contact prints. I ordered copies of the photos, but never received them. I also found blueprints and maps.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of lrkdbn via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 5:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] ICC valuation

 

I have a question. What sort of documentation was done of rolling stock in the 1917-19 era ICC valuation of the railroads? Were pictures taken of the various classes of rolling stock like they did of the physical plant?
Is such information available in the National Archives?
Larry King


Re: ICC valuation

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I have a copy of the val report for the Rochester branch of the ERIE.  I was looking for information that would cover the electrification that was in place  ~1906-1914.  I am less sure of the end date – it was scrapped for the WWI war effort.

 

The detail is blinding.  There’s one trackside shed that is not only documented as to what the shed was, X by Y by Z, built of wood, painted, roll roofing, etc., etc.  But it also included the number of kegs of spikes, spike mauls, the insulators on the shelves, even an approximation of the number of loose spikes on the floor!

 

The ERIE accomplished their Valuation Report pretty early in the process, around 1912, IIRC, but there was little directly relevant to what I was seeking.  So I have two 3” D ring red binders which I look at every couple of years. . .

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of proto48er
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 9:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ICC valuation

 

I visited the National Archives back in 1985 to copy 1917 era ICC valuation information for some Texas railroads.  A guy at the Interstate Commerce Commission had a 4-drawer file cabinet full of information, including accession numbers, that was necessary at the time to provide to the National Archives.  The archivists needed the correct ID numbers for them to locate the material.  He said that there was no information concerning valuation for locomotives or freight cars in his indexes.

A friend and I spent five days copying information from the ICC valuation books.  These had measurements of EVERY structure for EVERY railroad in the country.  We did not see any locomotive or freight car information at all.  The books were 5" X 7-1/2" in size and contained detailed measurements, handwritten in pencil on greenish paper, of every depot, outhouse, stock pen, bridge, trestle, etc. on the railroad.  I copied 3,700 pages (including some large blueprint maps of track plans) using my copy stand and 35mm Nikon copy camera.  There were NO books of photographs in the collection.  However, I know that some must have existed - I have a book of 700+ photos of I&GN structures that exactly corresponds to the measured structures in the ICC valuation books.

A. T. Kott


Re: ICC valuation

proto48er
 

I visited the National Archives back in 1985 to copy 1917 era ICC valuation information for some Texas railroads.  A guy at the Interstate Commerce Commission had a 4-drawer file cabinet full of information, including accession numbers, that was necessary at the time to provide to the National Archives.  The archivists needed the correct ID numbers for them to locate the material.  He said that there was no information concerning valuation for locomotives or freight cars in his indexes.

A friend and I spent five days copying information from the ICC valuation books.  These had measurements of EVERY structure for EVERY railroad in the country.  We did not see any locomotive or freight car information at all.  The books were 5" X 7-1/2" in size and contained detailed measurements, handwritten in pencil on greenish paper, of every depot, outhouse, stock pen, bridge, trestle, etc. on the railroad.  I copied 3,700 pages (including some large blueprint maps of track plans) using my copy stand and 35mm Nikon copy camera.  There were NO books of photographs in the collection.  However, I know that some must have existed - I have a book of 700+ photos of I&GN structures that exactly corresponds to the measured structures in the ICC valuation books.

A. T. Kott


Re: ICC valuation

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

I do have ICC Vaulation Sheets for the system wide  Equipment Accounts 51- Steam Locomotives, 53- Freight Train Cars, 54 Passenger Train Cars,  56-Floating Equipment, 57-Work Equipment, and -58 Miscellaneous Equipment (which includes motor trucks and horses).

A guy named Bill Edson used to sell these sets by railroad. I bought a bunch for roads I was interested in.

Tony Thompson




Re: ICC valuation

Charlie Vlk
 

This is a good question in general.

I am doing research on the CB&Q Aurora-Chicago line and have the images of the ICC reports for the subject area physical plant from the BRHS Archives.

I have indexed the report and placed it in Excel to make it easier to search by keyword.  It is quite detailed and goes down to describing and pricing small tools at the Aurora Shops!

With the Wuhan Pandemic shutting down government and research libraries I would like to hear experiences of listees who have contacted the National Archives in the past and also those who have accessed the files in person.

I do have ICC Vaulation Sheets for the system wide  Equipment Accounts 51- Steam Locomotives, 53- Freight Train Cars, 54 Passenger Train Cars,  56-Floating Equipment, 57-Work Equipment, and -58 Miscellaneous Equipment (which includes motor trucks and horses).

Locomotives are grouped by cylinder size and total light weight.  Freight cars are grouped by series and year built and type as are passenger cars.

The Valuation Study material included detailed map drawings of ROW and stations, sketches and photos of buildings.  If the material is still in the archives it would be a goldmine for STMFC modelers.  Equipment photos taken at the time of the Valuation would be really nice to have as well!!!

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of lrkdbn via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 5:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] ICC valuation

 

I have a question. What sort of documentation was done of rolling stock in the 1917-19 era ICC valuation of the railroads? Were pictures taken of the various classes of rolling stock like they did of the physical plant?
Is such information available in the National Archives?
Larry King


ICC valuation

lrkdbn
 

I have a question. What sort of documentation was done of rolling stock in the 1917-19 era ICC valuation of the railroads? Were pictures taken of the various classes of rolling stock like they did of the physical plant?
Is such information available in the National Archives?
Larry King


Re: Ellsworth Coal Line ?

Philip Dove
 

Notice the initials on the end of the gondola J.W.E.co.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 at 21:13, John <jbopp007@...> wrote:
I don't have any information on the Ellsworth Coal Line but here are two LOC images of the James W. Ellsworth and Co. coal dock in Cleveland c.1900.



I wonder how well those wood gondolas stood up to being tipped over and dumped?
And notice the locomotive headlight on the Volunteer.

John Bopp
Farmington Hills MI
modeling the nineteen aughts


Re: Ellsworth Coal Line ?

John
 

I don't have any information on the Ellsworth Coal Line but here are two LOC images of the James W. Ellsworth and Co. coal dock in Cleveland c.1900.



I wonder how well those wood gondolas stood up to being tipped over and dumped?
And notice the locomotive headlight on the Volunteer.

John Bopp
Farmington Hills MI
modeling the nineteen aughts


Re: Ellsworth Coal Line ?

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi John,
 
Decades ago, there was a major article in one of the hobbyist magazines on the CP 'Big Otis' gondolas, and I think it mentioned ELLSWORTH COAL LINE.
 
Sadly, I don't even recall what magazine, much less which issue. I realize this is not much to go on - sorry!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 1:39 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ellsworth Coal Line ?

Does anyone know what the Ellsworth Coal Line was ?

In the 1920s, 30s, and 40s the CPR owned a large number of 40-ft steel drop-bottom coal gondolas that were stenciled ELLSWORTH COAL LINE in addition to the normal CPR lettering.

There was a James Ellsworth who owned coal mines but what was the Ellsworth Coal Line and why would it be stenciled on many CPR gondolas ?

John Riddell  

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