Date   

Re: Automobile Shipping

np328
 

RJ Dial asked:Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?
................

       My frustratingly limited (based on what I found) research on the question above was that you had to have cars available and on site locally. I say frustrating as I never found solid numbers. I researched on NP traffic auto traffic and found some files where officers of the NP wanted into the Detroit traffic and found the following:

1) A railroad needed to have large numbers of cars waiting in the yards local to the auto factories. Like the lumber mills on the other end of their line out west on the NP, the car makers did not discriminate however took any railroads car that met their needs. (Think taxi cabs waiting at the airport for you to request or hail them).   

        However to have your railroads cars sit there for days while waiting to be called up when they could be making money elsewhere is expensive if your cars were built (as most railroads did) on borrowed money. Notes found state that larger railroads who could afford to keep lots of empty cars local to the Detroit auto plants had a great advantage.
       And of research found and shared with others on this list, the Evans loaders were modified sometimes yearly to conform with new models needs. And that makes them a higher maintenance car, and more costly to operate.  
 
2) Of the Ford plant in St. Paul, MN, this was served exclusively by the Milwaukee Road and research revealed that the Milwaukee Road was very successful holding onto the cars as a single line haul to wherever it went. (Much to the consternation of all other railroads in the Twin Cities since the Milwaukee Road from there, did head off in a lot of directions.) 

3) Taking point two above and applying it to Detroit, since Chicago is a break point for much railroading across the United States as is also St. Louis, any single line advantage would end there for railroads west of that point.   Modelers in the west half of the US, take note.

4) The Great Lakes: Surprisingly, there was some automobiles hauling of note on the Great Lakes, Detroit to Duluth, not a big amount however enough that if your modeling in the Great Lakes area, please research to see how this affects you. It would not be again, a big amount. However something to check, and enough for me that auto traffic as a small percentage, shows up as loads Duluth to the Twin Cities. That seems counter to what I would have thought. 

For most of us though, point number 1 is the overwhelming factor. I did find that the NP captured what it thought, was a good amount of the auto hauling trade from the Twin Cities to the upper Northwest. 

In home roads cars though, not really enough data found to make an decisive statement, so I will defer to Gilbert-Nelson think there. 

      RJ and others, hope this helps.      RJ, I want to get one or more of Pierre's CP cars. They are nice. For me, there was a NP/CP interchange at Sumas, WA. So could a CP car be loaded in Detroit for return to home rails at Sumas after unloading in the PNW. I would like to think so.  
                                                                                                  Jim Dick - Roseville, MN   


Loading Sugar Beets

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

So if you are . . . uh . . . TIRED  of the automobile shipping thread, try searching the Longmont web site Richard Townsend suggested. It is loaded with photos of the Great Western Sugar factory, beet dumps, and freight cars. Here's one to whet your appetite: http://longmont.pastperfectonline.com/photo/7C81936C-5830-4141-91B4-718115833240 .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/10/17 2:21 PM, Richard Townsend richtownsend@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

And here's a fire truck being unloaded from an automobile boxcar at Longmont, Colorado:
 
 
There are other photos in this collection of this particular event.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


Re: Square Wire for Vertical Brake Staffs

Bill Welch
 

.020" seems too large for a Brake Shaft but I would appreciate other opinions. The .016 x .016 Dental Wire I was looking at is in fact Ovoid so re-thinking this thing.

Bill Welch


Re: Square Wire for Vertical Brake Staffs

spsalso
 

I think if I were cutting square (or other) stainless wire, I would use a cutoff wheel.


Ed


Re: Automobile Shipping

Richard Townsend
 

And here's a fire truck being unloaded from an automobile boxcar at Longmont, Colorado:
 
 
There are other photos in this collection of this particular event.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dl109er@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jul 10, 2017 11:06 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Automobile Shipping

 
Here's a shot of a 1947 Ford sedan being unloaded on the freight platform at Old Saybrook, CT.  Any guess what the freight car is?


Chris
Modeling the New Haven Railroad's CT Valley Lines during October, 1948.


Re: Automobile Shipping

Chris Adams
 

Here's a shot of a 1947 Ford sedan being unloaded on the freight platform at Old Saybrook, CT.  Any guess what the freight car is?


Chris
Modeling the New Haven Railroad's CT Valley Lines during October, 1948.


Re: Automobile Shipping

Tom Vanwormer
 

Bruce,
In the case of the Colorado Midland on the Western Slope of Colorado a couple of 2x6's were used for the ramp.  Photo if wanted.

Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Jeff,


Basically, the closest local team track or freight house was typically the place where automobiles were delivered to local dealers and then they were driven on their own wheels to the dealership.  A “full load” on a 40’ car would be 4 autos and a 50’ car might load as many as 6 autos. Dealers typically got full loads but the could also split loads, typically with the dealer in the next town ;)

Unloading required either a platform at the height of the car doors, or for end door cars, a ramp.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Jeffrey White jrwhite@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White


Re: Automobile Shipping

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

 

When talking about the origins of shipping autos by rail, we need to keep in mind that this was really just an extension of shipping carriages by rail. Before the turn of the twentieth century, railroads already had a small number of oversize boxcars, with oversize doors on the roster for the carriage trade. As the carriage makers closed, or morphed into auto makers, the cars did the same . . .

An interesting group of auto cars were the big fifty foot all steel cars the Union Pacific had built about 1914 or so. One of these is preserved (un-restored) at the Henry Ford Museum, specifically because the museum has a photo on new Model T's being loaded. The lower layer was rolled in through the end doors on their tires. A series of cross pieces were fitted between pockets provided in the car sides, which supported wood stringers, then a second layer were rolled in with their axle ends supported by the stringers. The wheels from the upper layer were then stowed between the cars on the floor.

As automobiles became larger and "softer" (more prone to body damage) these double deck schemes fell out of favor, until the invention of the Evans "loaders", which allowed autos to be hoisted off the floor intact, and others shipped below them.

     Goos summary. On the last point, there was an intermediate era in which wooden "hurdles" were used to support automobiles much as the Evans loader did, but of course with having to make hurdles and work around the auto to get it loaded. I'm sure the Evans device was a great relief to auto shippers.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Square Wire for Vertical Brake Staffs

Peter Hall
 

 Judging from end photos in "Focus on Freight Cars,” it looks like some box cars had hexagonal shafts. 

Any chance someone has found hexagonal wire that would be suitable, or is that too much to ask?

Thanks
Pete




On Jul 10, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Square brass wire, also NS wire and if you'd care to use it, square silver wire is a stock supply in the fine arts jewelry makers supply stores.

It's quite possible that our past hobby suppliers of the stuff sourced it from them.  

Mike Bauers


> On Jul 9, 2017, at 7:15 PM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
> 
> Where square stock was universally used was drop brakes on flatcars, since the whole staff had to slip through the ratchet wheel, and should be functional at any point between fully raised to fully retracted.
> 
> Special Shapes Co. used to have .020" square brass, which at a scale 1.75" square, was about the perfect size. I used some on a flatcar model years ago.



Re: Automobile Shipping

dgconnery@...
 

Hi RJ,


Send me a note at dgconnery at sbcglobal dot net. I have a photo of them unloading Model T's in Sonora (body separate from the frame and drive train). Would be a great scene to model. Can't get Yahoo to let me reply to you and I have lost your direct e-mail address.


Dave Connery


Re: Automobile Shipping

Dennis Storzek
 

When talking about the origins of shipping autos by rail, we need to keep in mind that this was really just an extension of shipping carriages by rail. Before the turn of the twentieth century, railroads already had a small number of oversize boxcars, with oversize doors on the roster for the carriage trade. As the carriage makers closed, or morphed into auto makers, the cars did the same.

Carriage makers were used to stacking carriages into the cars, blocking them up with cribbing, to get more carriages per load, thus reducing shipping costs. The auto makers followed suit, sometimes building a false work to get a second level in the cars. 

An interesting group of auto cars were the big fifty foot all steel cars the Union Pacific had built about 1914 or so. One of these is preserved (un-restored) at the Henry Ford Museum, specifically because the museum has a photo on new Model T's being loaded. The lower layer was rolled in through the end doors on their tires. A series of cross pieces were fitted between pockets provided in the car sides, which supported wood stringers, then a second layer were rolled in with their axle ends supported by the stringers. The wheels from the upper layer were then stowed between the cars on the floor.

As automobiles became larger and "softer" (more prone to body damage) these double deck schemes fell out of favor, until the invention of the Evans "loaders", which allowed autos to be hoisted off the floor intact, and others shipped below them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Automobile Shipping

George Eichelberger
 

I just checked, the PDF of the presentation I did at the Collinsville RPM on shipping autos and auto parts last year is still up on Google Drive. If anyone is interested, they can download theGoogle entire presentation (unfortunately with no narration).

The Google link is:

Ike


Re: Automobile Shipping

Bruce Smith
 

Jeff,

Basically, the closest local team track or freight house was typically the place where automobiles were delivered to local dealers and then they were driven on their own wheels to the dealership.  A “full load” on a 40’ car would be 4 autos and a 50’ car might load as many as 6 autos. Dealers typically got full loads but the could also split loads, typically with the dealer in the next town ;)

Unloading required either a platform at the height of the car doors, or for end door cars, a ramp.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Jeffrey White jrwhite@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White


Re: Automobile Shipping

Eric Hansmann
 

 

Depending upon your modeling era, 36-foot automobile box cars should be considered. Here's an image of Michigan Central 87129. This car was one of 1000 built by AC&F in 1912 as Lot 286-B. The October 1926 ORER notes 2917 cars listed in the MCRR 87000-89999 series. There are two other series listed as 36-foot XA cars.

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/mcrr-87129.jpg

 

 

50600-51049 - 391 cars

51100-52099 - 880 cars

 

These three car series total 4188 cars in late 1926.

As additional info, the Michigan Central listed 15,756 40-foot XA cars in the October 1926 ORER.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


Re: Automobile Shipping

Jeffrey White
 

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White

Alma, IL


On 7/9/2017 4:32 PM, Al Kresse water.kresse@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

For looking at C&O and N&W photos it is not that unusual to find pictures of portions of the auto unloading docks with ramps next to the team track.  Unfortunately, photographers focused on the adjacent depots.  These ramped-docks are rarely captioned in the photo credits.  The station history cards for changes many times list removal of the team track and docks.  Ramps would be erected for end-door unloadings.


After WW2, folks were allowed to arrange through their dealer to pick up their cars at the assembly plants and save the shipping charges.  My uncle, working in a dealership shop, living in Washington would take the train to Flint, Michigan, and then drive the family back through his old home in South Dakota in their new car.


Trucking new cars longer distances became more common in the mid-50's.


Al Kresse

On July 9, 2017 at 4:26 PM "radiodial@... [STMFC]" wrote:

 

Thanks Bruce,

I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn!  Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.
A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.
So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time?  I figured there would be more images out there if they were.
Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.
Thx,
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA



 

 


 



Re: Automobile Shipping

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Dennis, Good to learn how this worked
Thanks

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: [Non-DoD Source] RE: Automobile Shipping

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;

Jumping in late; I am not certain about the earliest date(s), but I have found photos and limited correspondence, on the PRR, on auto shipments in the twenties, shipped on their tires, blocked. They were rolled out through the double side doors onto a loading dock.

There were literally hundreds of damage claims filed on the RRs in this trade, since no one could prove the RR didn't damage the cars. This was particularly aggravating to RR leadership, who were spending lots of time training people how to load cars so they did not get away and cause damage.

I'll share more as I get it.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] RE: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping



Well, RJ, I am in the process of building a model of a box car that was built in January 1942 as an automobile car. It’s definitely a 10’-6” IH car, but it’s even labeled on the side as a 10’-4” IH car because it was originally equipped with racks, reducing the clear IH by 2”. So the railroads anticipated shipping automobiles in box cars at least into the early 40s.

They didn’t ship many, of course, because most auto manufacturers were converting their factories to make war materiel.

Schuyler

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 4:26 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping

Thanks Bruce,

I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn! Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.

A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.

So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time? I figured there would be more images out there if they were.

Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.

Thx,

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA

---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <smithbf@...> wrote :

​RJ,

There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page. There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.

A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.

Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping

I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's. Are there any? From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Automobile Shipping

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <srrfan1401@...> wrote :

 I wonder who was responsible for damage to vehicles if a lazy or incompetent operator made a mistake.
AAHHHH the good old days

--
Fenton Wells
====================

Like any other shipment.The railroad spotted the car for loading. The consignor, usually the manufacture, loaded the car with his people. If they damaged something, it was on them. If there was a history of excessive damage claims, the RR had the right to inspect the load before the car was sealed.

The railroad(s) then moved the car to it's destination.

When the consignee, usually a dealer, opened the car, first order of business was to inspect for damage. Damage claims were a lot easier if the damaged load was inspected before unloading., as the railroad would claim the damage was done during unloading, which would then be the responsibility of the consignee.

If no damage, the dealer's people then unloaded the car. Any damage done during unloading was on them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Automobile Shipping

O Fenton Wells
 

I'm no expert by any means but while digging into railroad history in Sanford NC we found a team track (now long gone) near downtown on the A&Y.  Several "old timers' told us that the box car would be spotted at the ramp on the team track and the local dealer had to come down and unload the autos.  The railroad did not do it.  I wonder who was responsible for damage to vehicles if a lazy or incompetent operator made a mistake.
AAHHHH the good old days

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: Square Wire for Vertical Brake Staffs

mwbauers
 

Craft beading wire is available as square brass wire, 0.020 thick, 4-meter long coils, at $7

You'll have to use the classic pull method to get straight rod out of the coiled wire. But brass pull-straightens very easily. It's a very old method that has long been used in the hobby.


Mike Bauers

On Jul 9, 2017, at 2:40 PM, "fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

A square brake shaft on the "B" end of a boxcar would be vey cool I think

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