Date   
Re: Meat reefers

Richard Townsend
 

There is an error in the web address. It should be railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Apr 8, 2020 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Hi Garth and list,

I also offer a Western Pacific shippers guide from 1957, and it is $29.95, plus shipping. It can be viewed at my website railsunlimite.ribbonrail.com.


Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020, 11:46:24 AM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


RJ,

You need to order up a copy of Western Pacific circular 167-E from the CSRM (possibly the only original left; my photocopy cost about $60, and I haven't regretted the investment one bit). It lists EVERY customer served by the WP/SN/TS/CCT directly or regularly via team tracks, and also includes customers on the SP, UP, ATSF and a few other railroads in towns where a car might be handed off. The piece is circa 1957, based on what is there and what is missing among towns served by the SN . A look through this will tell you a lot about where meat packing or meat distribution facilities were.

For example, the WP served a Swift & Co. facility at 3rd and Clay in Oakland, with a track capacity of two cars. Apparently this was a distribution facility for packaged meat products. Just in case you have Adam Clegg's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR PICTORIAL v. 1, there is a shot of this building on page 26.

I just rambled through Sacramento in the circular and found these possible customers: WP--Valley Wholesale Groceries; SN--Lancaster Wholesale Grocery  ; SP--Armour, Swift, United Grocers, Tiedemann & McMorran (wholesale grocery); general team tracks--Maderight Sausage, Murphy Meat, Pureta Sausage. There was also a Safeway facility listed only as "produce", though I'm a bit dubious about that. There were also two packing plants at Peethill (West Sacramento) on the SN, but I think these received animals to slaughter for local sales.

So there certainly were the possibilities of Swift reefers showing up in Oakland via the WP, and both Swift and Armour in Sacramento via the SP, plus the possibility of other small mid-west packers shipping to grocers and the sausage companies either in their own marked cars, or in "Plain Jane" refrigerators.

Another intriguing refrigerator is a 4-hatch CN car on the SN at Lake Temescal in late 1956 (seen in James Harrison's SACRAMENTO NORTHERN GALLERY, page [24]). What was it doing there?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿



On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
So it is safe to say that meat reefers were not a west coast thing, say 1930's/1940's?  I have not seen any in period pictures, but doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I have a couple of Sylvan meat reefer kits I keep wondering if I should build to run on Western Pacific/Southern Pacific consists.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA

Looking for Tom Casey

Jared Harper
 

In  January 2017, I approached Tom Casey and offered to pay him to complete my Santa Fe coach, baggage, and caboose car 2375 that I had started scratchbuilding. (I hate to build models and this will be my only passenger car.) He said it sounded like an interesting project as he had never built a wood passenger car.  On January 30th I packed up the model, most of the building materials, and the prototype data and mailed it to him.  He received my package and e-mailed me on February 12, saying again that it looked like a fun project.  May 7, 2017, Tom e-mailed to say the model should be finished by the end of the month.  As time passed I asked Tom for another status report on July 18, 2017. Tom  finally responded by e-mail on  July 26, with 30+ photos of the model with a list of items  that still needed to be  completed. Tom and I made a connection at the October 2018 Naperville meet and he showed me the the mostly completed model.  On March 27, 2019, Tom sent an e-mail that said the model would be completed in a week or so and he would send a paint sample.  A year has passed and I haven't heard anything from Tom.  A couple of months ago I sent a registered letter tha elicited no response.

Does  anyone know what has happened to Tom Casey? I really want the coach, baggage and caboose car.  My operations are not authentic until I receive the car. 
Jared Harper
706-543-8821













































A few years back I contacted Tom Casey in Barrington, IL, to ask if I could pay him to scratchbuild a model of Santa Fe coach, baggage, and caboose car 2375.  He said he would like to do it just for the experience and he would do it gratis.  I sent him all the prototype data, and modeling materials.









Re: Photo: Pres-To-Logs Boxcar

mel perry
 

i"d be interested in the fine print on the
left side of the car, as well as the color
scheme
mel perry

Re: Meat reefers

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Garth and list,

I also offer a Western Pacific shippers guide from 1957, and it is $29.95, plus shipping. It can be viewed at my website railsunlimite.ribbonrail.com.


Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020, 11:46:24 AM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


RJ,

You need to order up a copy of Western Pacific circular 167-E from the CSRM (possibly the only original left; my photocopy cost about $60, and I haven't regretted the investment one bit). It lists EVERY customer served by the WP/SN/TS/CCT directly or regularly via team tracks, and also includes customers on the SP, UP, ATSF and a few other railroads in towns where a car might be handed off. The piece is circa 1957, based on what is there and what is missing among towns served by the SN . A look through this will tell you a lot about where meat packing or meat distribution facilities were.

For example, the WP served a Swift & Co. facility at 3rd and Clay in Oakland, with a track capacity of two cars. Apparently this was a distribution facility for packaged meat products. Just in case you have Adam Clegg's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR PICTORIAL v. 1, there is a shot of this building on page 26.

I just rambled through Sacramento in the circular and found these possible customers: WP--Valley Wholesale Groceries; SN--Lancaster Wholesale Grocery  ; SP--Armour, Swift, United Grocers, Tiedemann & McMorran (wholesale grocery); general team tracks--Maderight Sausage, Murphy Meat, Pureta Sausage. There was also a Safeway facility listed only as "produce", though I'm a bit dubious about that. There were also two packing plants at Peethill (West Sacramento) on the SN, but I think these received animals to slaughter for local sales.

So there certainly were the possibilities of Swift reefers showing up in Oakland via the WP, and both Swift and Armour in Sacramento via the SP, plus the possibility of other small mid-west packers shipping to grocers and the sausage companies either in their own marked cars, or in "Plain Jane" refrigerators.

Another intriguing refrigerator is a 4-hatch CN car on the SN at Lake Temescal in late 1956 (seen in James Harrison's SACRAMENTO NORTHERN GALLERY, page [24]). What was it doing there?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿



On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
So it is safe to say that meat reefers were not a west coast thing, say 1930's/1940's?  I have not seen any in period pictures, but doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I have a couple of Sylvan meat reefer kits I keep wondering if I should build to run on Western Pacific/Southern Pacific consists.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

O Fenton Wells
 

Truss rods, clear ice and bourbon, amen to that


On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:59 PM Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The proportion on whisky to ice is important, too.  Really fine whisky is delivered in barrels carried in a D/S trussrod boxcar. Carefully decanted and a bit of clear ice rubbed on the outside of the glass.  Add three small cinders from a locomotive and it is ready to serve on an open observation platform.
Chuck Peck

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:30 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
So right Tony, bourbon is 100 times better over clear ice
Fenton

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:23 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Claus Schlund wrote:

I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.

     Remember that "commercial ice" was frozen as quickly as possible and accordingly contained really a lot of trapped air bubbles, making it at best translucent and often opaque and white. The ice consumers prefer to buy is frozen slowly enough for it to be clear or nearly so. Of course some consumer ice, intended for (literal) ice boxes or making ice cream, etc. can be the cloudy ice, but people would prefer not to put that into a drinking glass.

Tony Thompson





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Modellogenic scene: from ErieLack NPS photos

Benjamin Hom
 

David Soderblom wrote:
"I note that the gondola to the left has the pole holders on the car’s outside.  I had thought they were inside so the pole would rest against the car’s floor."

Outside stake pockets were a common feature of early composite gons and would function as those on a flat car - here are a couple of examples from PRR and NYCS (P&LE):
PRR Class GRA

P&LE 41000-41999, NYCS Lot 253-G 


Ben Hom


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Eric Hansmann
 

Those are great shots, Eldon.

 

Here’s a link to a 1923 GM Hopkins plat map that shows the buildings Eldon mentions. There seems to be a Morris & Co. operation across 21st Street from the Armour building.

https://arcg.is/1CfrCq0

 

I was unaware the PRR Whitehall branch went down 21st Street. That has lots of layout potential, especially for a pre-1930s era.

 

BTW, if you zoom out to view more of that map, I cannot guarantee you will accomplish anything else today. Stay hydrated while you explore an earlier Pittsburgh.

 

Or, maybe “Have a Duke!” since the brewery was on the Whitehall branch.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 12:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Eric and all;

 

The attached are from my historical research files I have worked a long time on, on the Mon Valley in and upstream of Pittsburgh.  These are from the South Side across the Mon from downtown Pittsburgh.  The first 3 are the track side of the combined retail store and wholesale Armour Meats operation.  You can still see:  the Supervisor’s cupola, office and residence, the unloading dock (although the unloading rail is missing), and retail store side.  This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street on which I was standing.

 

The last shot is the similar Swift Meats operation, right across East Carson Street.  By this time, the small triangular unloading dock had been demolished, although you can see the doorway.  This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street. 

 

Cars for both originated out of 30th Street Yard in the upper South Side, dropped off by transfers from other local Pgh yards.  As Eric said, they were priority switching jobs.

 

Old timers told me about the switching of both plants, which tied up traffic to the annoyance of locals.  Many recalled the colorful reefers hosted at each, and how often it occurred.

 

There were similar but smaller ops upstream at Brownsville, also, and at Fairmont,  IIRC on the Monongahela Railway.

 

When shown photos of Armour and Swift reefers, folks’ faces would light up, and they’d go, “Yeah, just like that!”.

 

I don’t think many realize how prevalent this was in many locales.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 12:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Attached is part of a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of Fairmont, W. Va. There’s an Armour branch house in the building complex on the left side. This was located on the 1.25 mile Fairmont Belt Line branch of the B&O. The B&O main can be seen in the lower right corner and the connection was just to the right off the map. Fairmont had a population around 20,000 people when this 1927 Sanborn map was created.

 

Based upon tales of former B&O yard workers, service for the Armour customer was a high priority. When a meat reefer arrived in Fairmont for this branch house, it was immediately switched to the spur.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Gang;

 

It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place.  In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others.  They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers.  Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find.  I was!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way. 

 

So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Keene via groups.io <
bill41@...>
To:
main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car. 

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA

 

 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>. 

Brian J. Carlson 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:



Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!

 

Re: Modellogenic scene: from ErieLack NPS photos

David Soderblom
 

I note that the gondola to the left has the pole holders on the car’s outside.  I had thought they were inside so the pole would rest against the car’s floor.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA
drs@..., 410-338-4543





Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Charles Peck
 

The proportion on whisky to ice is important, too.  Really fine whisky is delivered in barrels carried in a D/S trussrod boxcar. Carefully decanted and a bit of clear ice rubbed on the outside of the glass.  Add three small cinders from a locomotive and it is ready to serve on an open observation platform.
Chuck Peck

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:30 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
So right Tony, bourbon is 100 times better over clear ice
Fenton

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:23 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Claus Schlund wrote:

I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.

     Remember that "commercial ice" was frozen as quickly as possible and accordingly contained really a lot of trapped air bubbles, making it at best translucent and often opaque and white. The ice consumers prefer to buy is frozen slowly enough for it to be clear or nearly so. Of course some consumer ice, intended for (literal) ice boxes or making ice cream, etc. can be the cloudy ice, but people would prefer not to put that into a drinking glass.

Tony Thompson





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Meat reefers

Bill Keene
 

In my previous message (below) I mentioned that the KCRM Gift Shop was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. If the magic works there should be an attachment of a scanned slide (of questionable quality) of the WLCX 2711 at the museum. 

The car made a good gift shop. It was also the only freight car in the collection that was cleaned and waxed on a regular basis. Good old fashioned paste wax twice a year on the side shown and once a year on the side up against the KCS team track freight house. 

Enjoy.


Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:56 PM, Bill Keene via groups.io <bill41@...> wrote:

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:


Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 


Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!



Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

O Fenton Wells
 

So right Tony, bourbon is 100 times better over clear ice
Fenton

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:23 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Claus Schlund wrote:

I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.

     Remember that "commercial ice" was frozen as quickly as possible and accordingly contained really a lot of trapped air bubbles, making it at best translucent and often opaque and white. The ice consumers prefer to buy is frozen slowly enough for it to be clear or nearly so. Of course some consumer ice, intended for (literal) ice boxes or making ice cream, etc. can be the cloudy ice, but people would prefer not to put that into a drinking glass.

Tony Thompson





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Claus Schlund wrote:

I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.

     Remember that "commercial ice" was frozen as quickly as possible and accordingly contained really a lot of trapped air bubbles, making it at best translucent and often opaque and white. The ice consumers prefer to buy is frozen slowly enough for it to be clear or nearly so. Of course some consumer ice, intended for (literal) ice boxes or making ice cream, etc. can be the cloudy ice, but people would prefer not to put that into a drinking glass.

Tony Thompson



Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Eric Hansmann
 

Claus,

 

The building was originally a brewery. When Prohibition was enacted in January 1919, many brewers closed or changed their business plan. Many became cold storage facilities.

 

The details on the Sanborn map seem to indicate the spur ran under a portion of the structure that was a National Biscuit Company (Nabisco) garage.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Hi Eric,

 

Thanks for your insightful reply. I notice that the ‘Armour Packing Co’ building is connected to the ‘Marion Ice Co’ by what appears to be an overhead passageway, the inscription on the map appears to maybe read ‘Passage 2nd’. Obviously ice was essential to both these commercial firms.

 

Having a railroad siding pass under an overhead passage connecting two buildings would be a very model-genic scene, don’t you think?

 

I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

From: Eric Hansmann

Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2020 12:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Attached is part of a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of Fairmont, W. Va. There’s an Armour branch house in the building complex on the left side. This was located on the 1.25 mile Fairmont Belt Line branch of the B&O. The B&O main can be seen in the lower right corner and the connection was just to the right off the map. Fairmont had a population around 20,000 people when this 1927 Sanborn map was created.

 

Based upon tales of former B&O yard workers, service for the Armour customer was a high priority. When a meat reefer arrived in Fairmont for this branch house, it was immediately switched to the spur.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Gang;

 

It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place.  In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others.  They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers.  Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find.  I was!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way. 

 

So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Keene via groups.io <bill41@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car.

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA

 

 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>.

Brian J. Carlson

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:



Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!

 

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Eric and all;

 

The attached are from my historical research files I have worked a long time on, on the Mon Valley in and upstream of Pittsburgh.  These are from the South Side across the Mon from downtown Pittsburgh.  The first 3 are the track side of the combined retail store and wholesale Armour Meats operation.  You can still see:  the Supervisor’s cupola, office and residence, the unloading dock (although the unloading rail is missing), and retail store side.  This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street on which I was standing.

 

The last shot is the similar Swift Meats operation, right across East Carson Street.  By this time, the small triangular unloading dock had been demolished, although you can see the doorway.  This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street. 

 

Cars for both originated out of 30th Street Yard in the upper South Side, dropped off by transfers from other local Pgh yards.  As Eric said, they were priority switching jobs.

 

Old timers told me about the switching of both plants, which tied up traffic to the annoyance of locals.  Many recalled the colorful reefers hosted at each, and how often it occurred.

 

There were similar but smaller ops upstream at Brownsville, also, and at Fairmont,  IIRC on the Monongahela Railway.

 

When shown photos of Armour and Swift reefers, folks’ faces would light up, and they’d go, “Yeah, just like that!”.

 

I don’t think many realize how prevalent this was in many locales.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 12:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Attached is part of a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of Fairmont, W. Va. There’s an Armour branch house in the building complex on the left side. This was located on the 1.25 mile Fairmont Belt Line branch of the B&O. The B&O main can be seen in the lower right corner and the connection was just to the right off the map. Fairmont had a population around 20,000 people when this 1927 Sanborn map was created.

 

Based upon tales of former B&O yard workers, service for the Armour customer was a high priority. When a meat reefer arrived in Fairmont for this branch house, it was immediately switched to the spur.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Gang;

 

It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place.  In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others.  They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers.  Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find.  I was!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way. 

 

So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Keene via groups.io <
bill41@...>
To:
main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car. 

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA

 

 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>. 

Brian J. Carlson 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:



Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!

 

Re: Photo: Pres-To-Logs Boxcar

Alex Huff
 

Curious about a billboard boxcar rather than a reefer, I did a little research.  Note there are no reporting marks.  I searched a 1927 and a 1944 Equipment Register.  No reporting marks listed for the Presto Log Company or Potlatch Lumber Co.  The car number and cubic capacity matches a W, I & M boxcar.  Oddly, the W, I & M did not show assigned reporting marks in the ER, but gives instructions for per diem payments.  An internet list of reporting marks assigns WIM to the railroad.  The same reporting marks are officially assigned to a successor company, the Washington & Idaho.  It runs on both ex-BN and WI&M track.

Bottom line, without further proof the car ever ran with that paint, I would hesitate to paint a model as such.

Alex Huff, who once worked the front end of a Budd stainless steel ATSF lunch counter diner that used an oven fired with Presto logs     

   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi Eric,
 
Thanks for your insightful reply. I notice that the ‘Armour Packing Co’ building is connected to the ‘Marion Ice Co’ by what appears to be an overhead passageway, the inscription on the map appears to maybe read ‘Passage 2nd’. Obviously ice was essential to both these commercial firms.
 
Having a railroad siding pass under an overhead passage connecting two buildings would be a very model-genic scene, don’t you think?
 
I notice that the Armour Packing Co area has a portion of the building labeled as ‘Ice Machs’ – this makes me wonder if Armour owned the ice making equipment, and then used some portion of the ice for their own needs, and if Armour then possibly sold excess ice on a wholesale basis to Marion Ice, who perhaps in turn resold that ice on a retail basis.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

From: Eric Hansmann
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2020 12:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
 

Attached is part of a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of Fairmont, W. Va. There’s an Armour branch house in the building complex on the left side. This was located on the 1.25 mile Fairmont Belt Line branch of the B&O. The B&O main can be seen in the lower right corner and the connection was just to the right off the map. Fairmont had a population around 20,000 people when this 1927 Sanborn map was created.

 

Based upon tales of former B&O yard workers, service for the Armour customer was a high priority. When a meat reefer arrived in Fairmont for this branch house, it was immediately switched to the spur.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Gang;

 

It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place.  In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others.  They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers.  Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find.  I was!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way. 

 

So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Keene via groups.io <bill41@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car.

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA

 

 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>.

Brian J. Carlson

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:



Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!

 

Re: Meat reefers

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

RJ,

You need to order up a copy of Western Pacific circular 167-E from the CSRM (possibly the only original left; my photocopy cost about $60, and I haven't regretted the investment one bit). It lists EVERY customer served by the WP/SN/TS/CCT directly or regularly via team tracks, and also includes customers on the SP, UP, ATSF and a few other railroads in towns where a car might be handed off. The piece is circa 1957, based on what is there and what is missing among towns served by the SN . A look through this will tell you a lot about where meat packing or meat distribution facilities were.

For example, the WP served a Swift & Co. facility at 3rd and Clay in Oakland, with a track capacity of two cars. Apparently this was a distribution facility for packaged meat products. Just in case you have Adam Clegg's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR PICTORIAL v. 1, there is a shot of this building on page 26.

I just rambled through Sacramento in the circular and found these possible customers: WP--Valley Wholesale Groceries; SN--Lancaster Wholesale Grocery  ; SP--Armour, Swift, United Grocers, Tiedemann & McMorran (wholesale grocery); general team tracks--Maderight Sausage, Murphy Meat, Pureta Sausage. There was also a Safeway facility listed only as "produce", though I'm a bit dubious about that. There were also two packing plants at Peethill (West Sacramento) on the SN, but I think these received animals to slaughter for local sales.

So there certainly were the possibilities of Swift reefers showing up in Oakland via the WP, and both Swift and Armour in Sacramento via the SP, plus the possibility of other small mid-west packers shipping to grocers and the sausage companies either in their own marked cars, or in "Plain Jane" refrigerators.

Another intriguing refrigerator is a 4-hatch CN car on the SN at Lake Temescal in late 1956 (seen in James Harrison's SACRAMENTO NORTHERN GALLERY, page [24]). What was it doing there?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿



On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:
So it is safe to say that meat reefers were not a west coast thing, say 1930's/1940's?  I have not seen any in period pictures, but doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I have a couple of Sylvan meat reefer kits I keep wondering if I should build to run on Western Pacific/Southern Pacific consists.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Eldon the major meat packers: Swift, Armour, Wilson, Cudahy all had branch houses scattered across the country. The Branch Houses would receive carcasses, ie swinging meat, from the slaughter houses, then “process” the carcass into various meat cuts. These cuts then went to grocery concerns, meat markets, restaurants, institutions ie hospitals, prisons, etc. where they might be further cut down into steaks, chops, roasts, ground meat, etc. Some slaughter operations were full processing plants, where cold cuts, sausage, etc was made. But branch houses could also have this responsibility.

 

Note a branch house would only receive reefers from their respective slaughter house. However a grocery warehouse or cold storage facility would have reefers from all the meat packers.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Gang;

 

It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place.  In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others.  They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers.  Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find.  I was!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way. 

 

So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Keene via groups.io <bill41@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers. 

 

Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car. 

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA

 

 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>. 

Brian J. Carlson 

 

On Apr 7, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> wrote:



Hello,

Always nice to see fine reefer models.

In the early 1950's before the meat packers expanded, by consolidating facilities. the only place to see some of these reefers together on one train was east of Chicago. NKP did have the line east out of Chicago. Dubuqe, Oscar Meyer, and Hormel. were one plant companies. Hygrade in the early 1950's had only one or two plants. Swift, Armour, and Wilson had multiple locations.

My point is that not all meat reefers would be regularly seen, on the same train, except east of Chicago. When picking reefers to model, be aware of the plant locations and likely routing over your railroad.

Ted Schnepf

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 06:54:16 AM CDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

Frank Hodina shares photos and details on a few meat reefers in the latest Resin Car Works blog post. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy

Be safe. Stay healthy. Build models!

 

Re: Meat reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Ted talk to Greedy and Singer, they created the chart, I just “borrowed” it.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ted Schnepf
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:15 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Hello Doug,

thanks for the chart. You better put the Milwaukee up there with the IC, in fact two years the Milw hauled more meat than the IC.

And in the east, the NYC modelers clearly need meat trains, leaving all other eastern railroads in the dust.

Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020, 10:30:34 AM CDT, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

 

 

The Nickle Plate handled a lot of meat because it was a fast route. Meat was time sensitive and the meat packers wanted their products delivered as quickly as possible. Out of Omaha, meat packers could choose between six different railroads to get to Omaha. All roads were given meat traffic, with each road having a specific day when they go the majority of traffic. As rates were regulated, this was how the packers kept the railroads on their toes with demands for speed. The Illinois Central was the preferred route as the IC moved the meat faster than others. The CBQ had the option of going to Peoria for eastern connections instead of Chicago. East out of Chicago, the NKP was the preferred routing for meat going to NYC or New England.

 

I am not as well versed in meat traffic east of Chicago. Attached is a spreadsheet prepared by John Greedy and Jim Singer, which shows the meat traffic east of Chicago on various roads in the 50s.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:04 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

Thanks, Doug, very interesting.  That routing reflects a close tie between the NKP and DL&W.  In the early days of mergers, the DL&W wanted to merge with the NKP, who declined.  I’ve never understood why – I would have thought the direct route into NYC would have been very tempting, but I also figure the NKP’s membership in the Van Sweringen-created AMC was a problem.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2020 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

 

Here is a slide from my meat trains clinic, showing the movement of a meat reefer from Omaha to Boston. It went CBQ, NKP, DL&W, L&HR, NH. This was the early 50s I believe.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Meat reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Meat packing plants in the West were located at Phoenix, Los Angeles (Vernon), South San Francisco, Sacramento,  Portland, Tacoma. Swift, Armour, Cudahy, Wilson all had plants out West. Tovrea, Swanston, Carstens, Nuckolls were regional packers who served the West. WWII created a huge demand for meat on the west coast, to feed the military and all the factory workers who migrated out there.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 10:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers

 

So it is safe to say that meat reefers were not a west coast thing, say 1930's/1940's?  I have not seen any in period pictures, but doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I have a couple of Sylvan meat reefer kits I keep wondering if I should build to run on Western Pacific/Southern Pacific consists.
--
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA