Date   

Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Mark Hemphill
 

Jeff, wouldn't the first column represent also lumber received on mills located on UP and delivered to customers on UP?  UP originated substantial quantities out of eastern Oregon and Idaho, particularly from Boise-Payette Lumber and Potlatch Lumber.  Deliveries to Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be insignificant.  Colorado and Utah were net lumber importers.

Mark Hemphill



Re: Funaro & Camerlengo kit box chronology(?)

Bill Welch
 

Currently they are using or experimenting using a "U-Line" box from what I saw at Collinsville. It is smaller than the box Speedwitch uses IIRC.

Bill Welch


Re: Car Service Rules

lstt100
 

March 1951 was at the end of a rough winter for many locations and also happened at the time of equipment shortages almost nationwide.  Numbers began to improve from 1951 to 1952.

Dan


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Larry Rice
 


Wood alcohol is/was an important raw material in the manufacture of formaldehyde, which is an ingredient in some adhesives used in plywood manufacture. Formaldehyde was also used widely in pulp mills during the steam era, though that use has been illegal for some time.

Off the top of my head, I can think of four or five plants in the Northwest that manufactured wood or methyl alcohol. 

Larry Rice
Port Townsend WA


paint

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

    Just received my copy of RMC today and noticed a paragraph that MinuteMan Scale Models has purchased Scalecoat.  This sounds like a good thing.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/3/2015 4:39 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] wrote:
I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak .

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

    From the net is appears the Mark 14 was hardly ever "on target" (VBG)!
    Does anyone else have any more information on that facility?  It interested me because I lived in Eugene from the middle to late 50s and never heard of the plant.  Springfield was close in those days and now I understand it's just one big city.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Funaro & Camerlengo kit box chronology(?)

hvyweight41
 

I have been purchasing F&C kits from different secondhand sources and begun to see that there are different styles of boxes. I assume they have changed over time.


I describe the different styles as:
white box - one piece folded box with text paper label on the end
blue box - two piece box with blue lid and text paper label on the end
picture box - two piece box with white lid and printed label with picture of the built model on top of lid

Also, I have one kit in a plastic bag with a F&C label. I remember reading, here, that the bagged kits were sold by F&C at train shows and meets. I have searched through the messages, files and photos, but have not been able to find anything that talks to the evolution of the F&C kit box.

Has anyone documented what box was used when? I assume the picture box is the current version, based on the new kits I see being sold.

Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

PS I apologize if this is a repeat. I tried a couple days ago and my browser restarted when I hit <send>. I have waited to see if it showed up, but have not seen it.



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

mwbauers
 

I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak .

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Jon Miller  wrote:


On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol. 
Torpedo fuel?


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Charles Peck
 

The alcohol fueled torpedo was obsolete before the end of WWII.
A plant built in 1947 had to have some other purpose.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.
Torpedo fuel?

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.
Torpedo fuel?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Aley, Jeff A
 

Dave,

               This data surprises me.  The first column (originated and terminated on UP) should mostly represent raw lumber going to mills on the UP.  The second would be the finished lumber going offline.  I would therefore expect the latter to be similar in magnitude to the former.

 

               Similarly, I am surprised that UP terminated so much lumber received from other carriers.  The bridge traffic (I’d bet it was received from the SP) makes sense.

 

               Comments?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]

The following columns are provided:
> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons

> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Bill Decker
 

Richard,

I don't have a direct answer, probably more to muddy the waters.  I have a copy of a photo of a wood alcohol plant built with Federal money at Springfield, OR, ca. 1947.  I also have a copy of a Sanborn map for the plant.  That plant clearly had Southern Pacific rail service, though we have no indication it actually ever shipped anything.  This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.  It also raises the possibility there might have been another such plant elsewhere along the Pacific Slope.  

I can somewhat understand a post-war plant.  V-2 missiles used alcohol as fuel.  Alcohol needs during WWII are a different matter.

This still does not answer your question.  Ever more curious...

Bill Decker


Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Tony Thompson
 

     Partly because the name of the author of these volumes was similar to his own, thus causing mistaken comments to him, Richard Hendrickson was quite scathing about the written content of all the CFC volumes. I think he was the first to advise, for a particular book, to "enjoy the photos but put your thumb over the captions."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Bill Welch
 

I am aware of these Ben, but I thought JP said he was looking for additional Vols on reefers. I agree about the captions. I think John Henderson was the author of some of these. Vol. 6 has the only photo I have ever seen of the NC&StL's 65-fot Mill gon as delivered.

Bill Welch


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

devansprr
 

Mike,

Very good point. Having stopped day dreaming about the future, some interesting WWII lumber data for L&N, Southern and UP.

The following columns are provided:
> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

1941 357,427   609,743  304,287   424,202  $5,018k
1942 420,975   693,011  408,085   516,708  $5,960k
1943 456,633   662,377  587,499   446,386  $6,057k
1944 409,591   579,037  420,625   411,068  $5,008k
1945 349,308   566,130  410,183   373,581  $4,768k

Same data for Southern:

1941 368,232 1,017,398  529,455   703,887  $6,184k
1942 459,486 1,169,235  709,547   846,730  $7.903k
1943 472,247 1,118,978  697,297   897,664  $7,989k
1944 446,024   995,864  602,856   761,599  $6,985k
1945 419,151   845,596  588,037   646,379  $6,256k

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k

Not sure there is anything special about L&N deliveries that might point to Oak Ridge.

An interesting data point is that the UP originated almost as much lumber as it bridged for other railroads in '42 and '44 (only 10% short), although 1943 looks to have been a bad year for lumber mills served by the UP. Wonder why?

And just now reading Tim and Tony's notes on rollers, I wonder how much of this data was corrupted by that practice.

I would suspect that rollers may have occurred much less during WWII - clearly demand was way up, so customers should have been in greater supply. I wonder if the explosion of "big" projects (such as Oak ridge, the blimp hangers on the west coast, and the many defense manufacturing plants framed from wood - a big source of future well-aged wood for the wood flooring business) also cut way down on rollers (customers ordering wood by the train load instead of car load)?

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :


Well, I would suggest that different yrs during WW2 might have generated
different traffic patterns as well. Consider the example of Oak Ridge,
Tennessee. During 1941 it was not there. The only lumber present was growing
on trees. By the end of 1943 about 75,000 people lived there [
including...uh...me ]. The city, itself, was built in about 2 yrs including
residential by the feds consuming an area of the same size as Memphis. This
city was spread all over a geographical entity known as Black Oak Ridge.
Amazingly, a wooden boardwalk, including bridges when needed, was built
behind the houses instead of in front next to the streets. Add to that the
three enormous nuclear plans also built in about a yr. The L&N served the
city and I think 2 plants...X-10 and Y-12...while Southern served the huge
K-25 facility. Anything that this operation [The Manhattan Project ] needed,
they got. To emphasize the consumption of stuff...certainly lumber...people
working there would note that a lot of stuff went there but nothing ever
came out.

Surely there were other examples of the needs of the military during its
expansion from a third world sized force to the world's largest [ including
its supporting facilities...like Oak Ridge ]. So, yes, WW2 would have had
some impact on traffic patterns...certainly it did in east Tennessee.

"So all of that EB lumber traffic on Mike Brock's layout may not be
appropriate for WWII era traffic."

Well, it might well be that east bound lumber may have been shipped a bit
further south.

Mike Brock


Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <sarahsan@...> wrote :

Dennis,

I'm looking at the PGE roster in the 1958 ORER, and seeing mostly state-of-the-art equipment, by then at least. I wasn't able to find photos or data on most of their cars, and I'm sure some of them were rolling relics, but these stood out:

XM 4101-4300 w/8' doors, built 1958 by NSC. They also had series 4001-4075 with 6' doors, and otherwise similar dimensions. I have no picture of these, but they are listed as all-steel. By this time all their older wooden boxcars were gone, rebuilt as stock cars or scrapped.

RAMH 820-824, 825-834 and 835-844, all-steel 8-hatch reefers built by NSC in 1954, 1956 and 1958 respectively...
=================

Garth,

1958 is almost the end of the era for this list, and just a couple years before the statement restricting interchange disappears from the ORER. I was really thinking of the decade right after WWII.

I suspect PGE was in the position of originating more traffic than they received, and so would never get empties back to replace home road cars that went off line. Likely better to keep their own cars on-line (which included shuttling to Vancouver on the CP barge) and request CP supply foreign road empties when they had  loads for interchange.

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty clear that the intent was to not let their car fleet become free runners, at least not until 1960.

Dennis Storzek


Walther's Decals for sale

Charles Hladik
 

 
The following Walther's decals are for sale at $2.00 a set plus shipping or $35.00 for the whole lot.  Reply OFF LIST ONLY, any reply on list will be ignored.
 
03-06    Ann Arbor Caboose White    1 set
03-10    Ann Arbor Box Car White    1 Set
26-15    B&O Box Car  White            2 sets
26-14    B&O Box Car  White 1919 Scheme    1 set
40-17    Burlington White Diesel GP    1 set
38-160    CNW Box Car White            1 set
1302    Diamond Alkali Tank Car Black    1 set 
48-11    DLW White Gen Purpose    1 set
52-11    GN Billboard    White            2 sets
            Lehigh Valley Combined Frt White    1 set
11-54    Socony Vacuum, Mobilgas Black    1 set
73-10    New Haven Combined Frt White    1 set
71-15    NYC 40' 50T Box White    2 sets    
71-88    NYC Piggy Back Yellow/Black    2 sets
71-60    NYC Pass Gold    1 set
71-80    NYC Pass Gold    1 set
77-10    PRR Auto/Box White    1 set
70-11    Venetian Blinds Pass Car Gold    2 sets  
 
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA.          


More Champ Decals

Charles Hladik
 

    The following sets are $2.00 each plus shippoing unless noted. Some may have a piece missing or extra sets inside. Or $40.00 plus shipping for the lot.
    Reply OFF LIST ONLY, requests on list will be ignored!
 
HH-7 Erie herald    1 set
 HB-322 ACL Box Car    1 set 
EH-174    ACL Hood Diesel     1 set
EH-50A     ACL Diesel    1 set
HB-337    B&O Box Car    1 set
HB-2    B&O Wagon Top Box Car    1 set
HT-50    Cities Service Tank "Older Scheme" 1 set
HN-4    D&RGW white lettering    1 set
HB-3    Erie Box Car    1 set
HD-19D    Express Reefer Dulux    1 set
BRH-37    FGE Express Blue Ribbon Set    $3.00    1 set
HB-142    GTW Box    1 set
HC-91    NYC Twin Hopper    1/2 set    $.50
NKP Stmld Alum/Blue Pass Car. 1 Coach/1 diner/Pullman    $5.00 1 set
PH-104    NKP    Alum/Blue Pass Car    1 set
HR-28    Oppenheimer Sausage Reefer    1 set
HC-120    PRR MOW Black    1 set
HB-155A    PRR Merchandise Box Car    1 set
HN-87    SAL  White    1 set
HB-351    Southern Box    1 set
HT-52    Union Tank Line UTLX    1 set
PH-115    Pullman Std Pass Car    1 set
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, Va.
 
 
 


Champ Decals for sale

Charles Hladik
 

 
 
    Below is a list of the Data, lettering etc of Champ decals that I have for sale. Some may have a few pieces missing, but very few and others may be several of the same set in one envelope for convenience.
 
K-5     Circus Data & Scrolls, BLUE                $2.00    1 pkg
 
X-10    White Numbers 7/64"                            $2.00    2 pkg
 
X-16    White Numbers 9/64"                            $2.00    2 pkg
 
HD-1    Box Car Data 40 ton                             $10.00    6 in 1 pkg  
 
HD-2    Box Car Data 50 ton                            $2.00    1 pkg
 
HD-4    Twin Hopper Data50/55 ton                $2.00   1 
 
HD-6    Gon 50/70 T, 41-65 Ft                        $2.00    1
 
HD-12    40/50 Ft Box Car Data Black            $2.00    1
 
HD-16D    Steam Loco Tender Data Dulux    $2.00    1
 
HD-25D    Pass Car Scrolls and Orn Dulux    $2.00    2
 
HD-26    Watch your Step Blk/Wht Pass        $2.00    2
 
HD-33W    Steam Tender Capy Wht RR Roman    $2.00   3
 
    All for $35.00 plus postage. Contact me OFF LIST, if not I will ignore the request.
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA. 24588
434-941-7456
 
 
 
                                     
 
 


Re: Car Service Rules

Aley, Jeff A
 

Dan,

 

               Thanks for sharing your expertise.  The 1951 compliance numbers are abysmal.  Do you have any idea why?

               Since I model 1951, it sounds like I could assign cars randomly, and be prototypical : -)

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 1:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car Service Rules

 

 

I'll add to Tony's comments based on my 42 year railroad career, which predates list, but I was hanging around with agency and car distributors as early as 1964 and did do car ordering, supply and distribution.

Under Car Service Rule 15 which stated "shippers were responsible for making a request with local agents concerning cars needed for loading, a specific date, the commodity to be loaded and the destination of the car." This information was placed on a request for empties form, each railroad had a different variations, but they all had them.  Lacking a car on hand at the station, the request was forwarded to local yard and or the car distributor in attempt to locate and appropriate car.  Lacking a car on the division the request was escalated to adjacent divisions.  Once an appropriate empty was found, even if it involved a backhaul, it was sent to the station for loading.  Agent noted the car on his industry request form noting the car initial and number that was provided for the specific load.  Car Service Division liked to go thru these reports and audit them for compliance.

Agency personal were responsible for notifying customer which car was being provided for which load.  Not always adhered to, but done most of the time.  In the case of Freight Houses, specific locations for specific destinations were specified making the job of assigning a correct empty a little easier.

Most local and switch crews did provide the correct cars to the correct shipper.

Bill of Lading was usually not provided to agent until after car was loaded.

Car Service Division did audit compliance, but non-compliance usually found a Car Service rep explaining why it was important to follow the Rules and little else.  However, he would quickly remind you when your terminal wasn't getting enough cars, that the local non-compliance had caused car supply problems elsewhere which were now reflected at your terminal.

At my Napervillle RPM Car Service presentation I presented the compliance numbers.  Here they are again.
1926 to 1929, 81.6 percent average compliance, 1934-1940 76.5 percent average compliance.  1941 to 1948 ODT controls freight car fleet, but enforcement of Car Service Rules begins again in March 1947.  May 1949 44.4 percent compliance, March 1951 18.8 percent compliance, July 1951 30 percent compliance, June 1954 62 percent compliance, June 1955 63 percent compliance, July 1956 65 percent compliance, July 1959 64 percent compliance.  In 1959 freight houses average 81 percent compliance with industries averaging 61 percent.

ICC "Service Orders" were legal and binding and had the authority of law.  Fines could be assessed for non-compliance.  Car Service Rules and "Special Orders" were not mandatory.  There were NO fines for non-compliance.

Dan Holbrook



---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Jim Betz wrote (in part):

 

 

  And what about this question - did the clerks who made up
the list of cars to be delivered to an industry actually know
what would be loaded into that particular car (where it would
be routed) ... before the car was pulled from the empties in the
yard?
  I've always thought that an industry called in an order for a car
(or cars) of a particular type ("Send us 4 boxcars") and the RR
delivered ... but the RR didn't know what the routing of any
individual car would be until after it was loaded.  Not true?  

 

    Jim, your general questions have simple answers, and I will try to be brief. Shippers told the local agent what cars they needed, and where they were going. That information was transmitted to car distributors at the appropriate regional yard, who selected the car to send. So in fact, the empty car might well be selected for exactly each shipper's load. Of course, home road cars were used too, and were more interchangeable (relative to Car Service Rules).

     But the shipper did NOT say "send us 4 box cars," they said "we need 2 box cars going to St. Louis., one to Memphis, and one to Atlanta." The shipper chose the routing, and the formal car request was the Bill of Lading document, from which the Waybill was made out, but the shipper could less formally request empties with just the bare-bones information of what cars, and to where.

     All this has been well documented in many publications, and I have summarized it in clinics and magazine articles, as well as on my blog.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

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