Date   

Re: Herald King & Champ Decals

amwing1588@...
 

Yes!


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

devansprr
 

Jeff,

For the total lumber hauled by a railroad, you need to total all four columns. So in 1942, UP hauled 3,492,636 tons of lumber in 108,520 carloads. I can not find anything suggesting that there are zeros missing in these totals. While 300 loads a day may not seem like a lot, remember that in this era most freight cars only traveled about 100 miles per day, so there were likely several thousand carloads of lumber on the UP on any given day. UP's total carloads in 1942 was 1.4M.

This is before all the merger and consolidations that turned UP into the major it is today. In 1942, nationally the class I's handled 72.9M carloads, so the UP was only 2% of that total. The PRR handled 6.1M carloads in 1942. (note that these are carloads handled by each RR, so many cars are counted more than once - this is the only carload data in the report for individual railroads, but it does NOT represent how many cars were loaded! At the national level, about 34M cars were loaded in 1942. With a fleet of around 1.9M cars, that works out to cars averaging about 3 weeks between each loading - hoppers were likely shorter. Box cars going cross country could have been longer.)

While the UP handled less than 1/4 the carloads of the PRR, it generated nearly 1/2 the freight revenue of the PRR, so obviously UP hauls were much longer than PRR hauls.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote :

Mark,

 

               Yes, the first column would represent those shipments, but my opinion (quite possibly wrong) is that the shipments to CO, UT, KS, and NE were actually insignificant.  Kansas, for example, terminated 634,000 tons of “Products of Forests” in 1950, of which 205,800 tons came from Oregon.  That’s about 39 cars per day for the whole state (12 from Oregon).

               But now that I compare the actual numbers, something’s not right.  The UP data for 1945 was

 

1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k

 

               I wonder if these numbers should be multiplied by 100.  At 45 tons per car, 335,203 tons = 7448 cars per year = 20 cars per day – not even a whole train.  2000 cars per day seems a bit too large, however, so I’m really confused.  Dave Evans, can you please double-check?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

 

 

Jeff, wouldn't the first column represent also lumber received on mills located on UP and delivered to customers on UP?  UP originated substantial quantities out of eastern Oregon and Idaho, particularly from Boise-Payette Lumber and Potlatch Lumber.  Deliveries to Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be insignificant.  Colorado and Utah were net lumber importers.

 

Mark Hemphill

 

 


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Aley, Jeff A
 

Dave,

 

               Aha!  Thanks – I thought you were citing data for “Products of Forests”.  My theories about the meaning of each column are misguided as a result of my wrong assumption.

 

               I also suspect that when you posted, you did not multiply the numbers by 100 (since they don’t end in “00” ).  Is the data from the 1% waybill sample?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 9:25 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

 

 

Jeff,

In the ICC reports of the era, logs are a separate commodity (group 400). "Lumber, shingles and Lath" were group 430. "Veneer and built-up wood" was group 432.

The stats I provided in the previous post were only group 430.

For 1941, the UP terminated 668k tons of logs that originated on UP, but only delivered 1k tons of logs to other carriers. Those logs may have been milled into category 430 or 432, or one of the other specialty groups that were comparatively minor. But the UP delivered lumber to its customers and other carriers totaling 1,078k tons, so it looks like as much as 400k tons of logs did not see UP rails on the way to the mills - not that surprising when considering logs floated to the mills, and logging railroads dedicated to supplying specific mills.

Nationally, the amount of terminating logs by US railroads was about 1/2 the amount of originating wood products, so lots of logs got to the mills without being carried by the "class I steam railways." Pulpwood is a separate forest product group and does not appear in any of the stats I have provided. But, nationally, US railways hauled almost as many tons of pulpwood as logs used for wood products.

The amount of lumber delivered to UP customers may seem large, but then US wide, US railroads delivered 30.5 Million tons of lumber in 1941 - so UP delivered about 2.3 % of that product to their customers. That seems reasonable. And the UP delivered 2 Million tons to other roads in interchange - nearly 7% of US lumber traffic - which is very impressive. That helps explain why Mike Brock sees so much lumber in his conductor reports, even though they are post war. 

Note that only 26 Million tons of lumber originated on US railroads, so I suspect 3.5 Million tons was imported from Canada in 1941.

Sure wish there was a way to digitize these ICC reports - about 150 pages of ledger size sheets for each year. At most 8 pt fonts and scant line spacing. Huge amount of data.

Dave Evans



---In STMFC@..., <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote :

Dave,

               This data surprises me.  The first column (originated and terminated on UP) should mostly represent raw lumber going to mills on the UP.  The second would be the finished lumber going offline.  I would therefore expect the latter to be similar in magnitude to the former.

 

               Similarly, I am surprised that UP terminated so much lumber received from other carriers.  The bridge traffic (I’d bet it was received from the SP) makes sense.

 

               Comments?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

The following columns are provided:

> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons

> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

devansprr
 

Jeff,

In the ICC reports of the era, logs are a separate commodity (group 400). "Lumber, shingles and Lath" were group 430. "Veneer and built-up wood" was group 432.

The stats I provided in the previous post were only group 430.

For 1941, the UP terminated 668k tons of logs that originated on UP, but only delivered 1k tons of logs to other carriers. Those logs may have been milled into category 430 or 432, or one of the other specialty groups that were comparatively minor. But the UP delivered lumber to its customers and other carriers totaling 1,078k tons, so it looks like as much as 400k tons of logs did not see UP rails on the way to the mills - not that surprising when considering logs floated to the mills, and logging railroads dedicated to supplying specific mills.

Nationally, the amount of terminating logs by US railroads was about 1/2 the amount of originating wood products, so lots of logs got to the mills without being carried by the "class I steam railways." Pulpwood is a separate forest product group and does not appear in any of the stats I have provided. But, nationally, US railways hauled almost as many tons of pulpwood as logs used for wood products.

The amount of lumber delivered to UP customers may seem large, but then US wide, US railroads delivered 30.5 Million tons of lumber in 1941 - so UP delivered about 2.3 % of that product to their customers. That seems reasonable. And the UP delivered 2 Million tons to other roads in interchange - nearly 7% of US lumber traffic - which is very impressive. That helps explain why Mike Brock sees so much lumber in his conductor reports, even though they are post war. 

Note that only 26 Million tons of lumber originated on US railroads, so I suspect 3.5 Million tons was imported from Canada in 1941.

Sure wish there was a way to digitize these ICC reports - about 150 pages of ledger size sheets for each year. At most 8 pt fonts and scant line spacing. Huge amount of data.

Dave Evans




---In STMFC@..., <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote :

Dave,

               This data surprises me.  The first column (originated and terminated on UP) should mostly represent raw lumber going to mills on the UP.  The second would be the finished lumber going offline.  I would therefore expect the latter to be similar in magnitude to the former.

 

               Similarly, I am surprised that UP terminated so much lumber received from other carriers.  The bridge traffic (I’d bet it was received from the SP) makes sense.

 

               Comments?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]

The following columns are provided:

> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons

> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k



Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Aley, Jeff A
 

Mark,

 

               Yes, the first column would represent those shipments, but my opinion (quite possibly wrong) is that the shipments to CO, UT, KS, and NE were actually insignificant.  Kansas, for example, terminated 634,000 tons of “Products of Forests” in 1950, of which 205,800 tons came from Oregon.  That’s about 39 cars per day for the whole state (12 from Oregon).

               But now that I compare the actual numbers, something’s not right.  The UP data for 1945 was

 

1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k

 

               I wonder if these numbers should be multiplied by 100.  At 45 tons per car, 335,203 tons = 7448 cars per year = 20 cars per day – not even a whole train.  2000 cars per day seems a bit too large, however, so I’m really confused.  Dave Evans, can you please double-check?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

 

 

Jeff, wouldn't the first column represent also lumber received on mills located on UP and delivered to customers on UP?  UP originated substantial quantities out of eastern Oregon and Idaho, particularly from Boise-Payette Lumber and Potlatch Lumber.  Deliveries to Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be insignificant.  Colorado and Utah were net lumber importers.

 

Mark Hemphill

 

 


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Mark Hemphill
 

Jeff, wouldn't the first column represent also lumber received on mills located on UP and delivered to customers on UP?  UP originated substantial quantities out of eastern Oregon and Idaho, particularly from Boise-Payette Lumber and Potlatch Lumber.  Deliveries to Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be insignificant.  Colorado and Utah were net lumber importers.

Mark Hemphill



Re: Funaro & Camerlengo kit box chronology(?)

Bill Welch
 

Currently they are using or experimenting using a "U-Line" box from what I saw at Collinsville. It is smaller than the box Speedwitch uses IIRC.

Bill Welch


Re: Car Service Rules

lstt100
 

March 1951 was at the end of a rough winter for many locations and also happened at the time of equipment shortages almost nationwide.  Numbers began to improve from 1951 to 1952.

Dan


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Larry Rice
 


Wood alcohol is/was an important raw material in the manufacture of formaldehyde, which is an ingredient in some adhesives used in plywood manufacture. Formaldehyde was also used widely in pulp mills during the steam era, though that use has been illegal for some time.

Off the top of my head, I can think of four or five plants in the Northwest that manufactured wood or methyl alcohol. 

Larry Rice
Port Townsend WA


paint

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

    Just received my copy of RMC today and noticed a paragraph that MinuteMan Scale Models has purchased Scalecoat.  This sounds like a good thing.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/3/2015 4:39 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] wrote:
I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak .

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

    From the net is appears the Mark 14 was hardly ever "on target" (VBG)!
    Does anyone else have any more information on that facility?  It interested me because I lived in Eugene from the middle to late 50s and never heard of the plant.  Springfield was close in those days and now I understand it's just one big city.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Funaro & Camerlengo kit box chronology(?)

hvyweight41
 

I have been purchasing F&C kits from different secondhand sources and begun to see that there are different styles of boxes. I assume they have changed over time.


I describe the different styles as:
white box - one piece folded box with text paper label on the end
blue box - two piece box with blue lid and text paper label on the end
picture box - two piece box with white lid and printed label with picture of the built model on top of lid

Also, I have one kit in a plastic bag with a F&C label. I remember reading, here, that the bagged kits were sold by F&C at train shows and meets. I have searched through the messages, files and photos, but have not been able to find anything that talks to the evolution of the F&C kit box.

Has anyone documented what box was used when? I assume the picture box is the current version, based on the new kits I see being sold.

Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

PS I apologize if this is a repeat. I tried a couple days ago and my browser restarted when I hit <send>. I have waited to see if it showed up, but have not seen it.



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

mwbauers
 

I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak .

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Jon Miller  wrote:


On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol. 
Torpedo fuel?


Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Charles Peck
 

The alcohol fueled torpedo was obsolete before the end of WWII.
A plant built in 1947 had to have some other purpose.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.
Torpedo fuel?

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM, sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.
Torpedo fuel?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Aley, Jeff A
 

Dave,

               This data surprises me.  The first column (originated and terminated on UP) should mostly represent raw lumber going to mills on the UP.  The second would be the finished lumber going offline.  I would therefore expect the latter to be similar in magnitude to the former.

 

               Similarly, I am surprised that UP terminated so much lumber received from other carriers.  The bridge traffic (I’d bet it was received from the SP) makes sense.

 

               Comments?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]

The following columns are provided:
> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons

> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k



Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

Bill Decker
 

Richard,

I don't have a direct answer, probably more to muddy the waters.  I have a copy of a photo of a wood alcohol plant built with Federal money at Springfield, OR, ca. 1947.  I also have a copy of a Sanborn map for the plant.  That plant clearly had Southern Pacific rail service, though we have no indication it actually ever shipped anything.  This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.  It also raises the possibility there might have been another such plant elsewhere along the Pacific Slope.  

I can somewhat understand a post-war plant.  V-2 missiles used alcohol as fuel.  Alcohol needs during WWII are a different matter.

This still does not answer your question.  Ever more curious...

Bill Decker


Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Tony Thompson
 

     Partly because the name of the author of these volumes was similar to his own, thus causing mistaken comments to him, Richard Hendrickson was quite scathing about the written content of all the CFC volumes. I think he was the first to advise, for a particular book, to "enjoy the photos but put your thumb over the captions."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Bill Welch
 

I am aware of these Ben, but I thought JP said he was looking for additional Vols on reefers. I agree about the captions. I think John Henderson was the author of some of these. Vol. 6 has the only photo I have ever seen of the NC&StL's 65-fot Mill gon as delivered.

Bill Welch


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

devansprr
 

Mike,

Very good point. Having stopped day dreaming about the future, some interesting WWII lumber data for L&N, Southern and UP.

The following columns are provided:
> Year
> Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons
> Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
> Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons
> Freight revenue (Dollars)

1941 357,427   609,743  304,287   424,202  $5,018k
1942 420,975   693,011  408,085   516,708  $5,960k
1943 456,633   662,377  587,499   446,386  $6,057k
1944 409,591   579,037  420,625   411,068  $5,008k
1945 349,308   566,130  410,183   373,581  $4,768k

Same data for Southern:

1941 368,232 1,017,398  529,455   703,887  $6,184k
1942 459,486 1,169,235  709,547   846,730  $7.903k
1943 472,247 1,118,978  697,297   897,664  $7,989k
1944 446,024   995,864  602,856   761,599  $6,985k
1945 419,151   845,596  588,037   646,379  $6,256k

And for UP (for grins):

1941 306,150   772,376  403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k
1942 440,798   932,544  615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k
1943 369,967   815,985  521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k
1944 417,548   915,605  568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k
1945 335,203   750,527  504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k

Not sure there is anything special about L&N deliveries that might point to Oak Ridge.

An interesting data point is that the UP originated almost as much lumber as it bridged for other railroads in '42 and '44 (only 10% short), although 1943 looks to have been a bad year for lumber mills served by the UP. Wonder why?

And just now reading Tim and Tony's notes on rollers, I wonder how much of this data was corrupted by that practice.

I would suspect that rollers may have occurred much less during WWII - clearly demand was way up, so customers should have been in greater supply. I wonder if the explosion of "big" projects (such as Oak ridge, the blimp hangers on the west coast, and the many defense manufacturing plants framed from wood - a big source of future well-aged wood for the wood flooring business) also cut way down on rollers (customers ordering wood by the train load instead of car load)?

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :


Well, I would suggest that different yrs during WW2 might have generated
different traffic patterns as well. Consider the example of Oak Ridge,
Tennessee. During 1941 it was not there. The only lumber present was growing
on trees. By the end of 1943 about 75,000 people lived there [
including...uh...me ]. The city, itself, was built in about 2 yrs including
residential by the feds consuming an area of the same size as Memphis. This
city was spread all over a geographical entity known as Black Oak Ridge.
Amazingly, a wooden boardwalk, including bridges when needed, was built
behind the houses instead of in front next to the streets. Add to that the
three enormous nuclear plans also built in about a yr. The L&N served the
city and I think 2 plants...X-10 and Y-12...while Southern served the huge
K-25 facility. Anything that this operation [The Manhattan Project ] needed,
they got. To emphasize the consumption of stuff...certainly lumber...people
working there would note that a lot of stuff went there but nothing ever
came out.

Surely there were other examples of the needs of the military during its
expansion from a third world sized force to the world's largest [ including
its supporting facilities...like Oak Ridge ]. So, yes, WW2 would have had
some impact on traffic patterns...certainly it did in east Tennessee.

"So all of that EB lumber traffic on Mike Brock's layout may not be
appropriate for WWII era traffic."

Well, it might well be that east bound lumber may have been shipped a bit
further south.

Mike Brock

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