Date   

Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <sarahsan@...> wrote :

Dennis,

I'm looking at the PGE roster in the 1958 ORER, and seeing mostly state-of-the-art equipment, by then at least. I wasn't able to find photos or data on most of their cars, and I'm sure some of them were rolling relics, but these stood out:

XM 4101-4300 w/8' doors, built 1958 by NSC. They also had series 4001-4075 with 6' doors, and otherwise similar dimensions. I have no picture of these, but they are listed as all-steel. By this time all their older wooden boxcars were gone, rebuilt as stock cars or scrapped.

RAMH 820-824, 825-834 and 835-844, all-steel 8-hatch reefers built by NSC in 1954, 1956 and 1958 respectively...
=================

Garth,

1958 is almost the end of the era for this list, and just a couple years before the statement restricting interchange disappears from the ORER. I was really thinking of the decade right after WWII.

I suspect PGE was in the position of originating more traffic than they received, and so would never get empties back to replace home road cars that went off line. Likely better to keep their own cars on-line (which included shuttling to Vancouver on the CP barge) and request CP supply foreign road empties when they had  loads for interchange.

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty clear that the intent was to not let their car fleet become free runners, at least not until 1960.

Dennis Storzek


Walther's Decals for sale

Charles Hladik
 

 
The following Walther's decals are for sale at $2.00 a set plus shipping or $35.00 for the whole lot.  Reply OFF LIST ONLY, any reply on list will be ignored.
 
03-06    Ann Arbor Caboose White    1 set
03-10    Ann Arbor Box Car White    1 Set
26-15    B&O Box Car  White            2 sets
26-14    B&O Box Car  White 1919 Scheme    1 set
40-17    Burlington White Diesel GP    1 set
38-160    CNW Box Car White            1 set
1302    Diamond Alkali Tank Car Black    1 set 
48-11    DLW White Gen Purpose    1 set
52-11    GN Billboard    White            2 sets
            Lehigh Valley Combined Frt White    1 set
11-54    Socony Vacuum, Mobilgas Black    1 set
73-10    New Haven Combined Frt White    1 set
71-15    NYC 40' 50T Box White    2 sets    
71-88    NYC Piggy Back Yellow/Black    2 sets
71-60    NYC Pass Gold    1 set
71-80    NYC Pass Gold    1 set
77-10    PRR Auto/Box White    1 set
70-11    Venetian Blinds Pass Car Gold    2 sets  
 
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA.          


More Champ Decals

Charles Hladik
 

    The following sets are $2.00 each plus shippoing unless noted. Some may have a piece missing or extra sets inside. Or $40.00 plus shipping for the lot.
    Reply OFF LIST ONLY, requests on list will be ignored!
 
HH-7 Erie herald    1 set
 HB-322 ACL Box Car    1 set 
EH-174    ACL Hood Diesel     1 set
EH-50A     ACL Diesel    1 set
HB-337    B&O Box Car    1 set
HB-2    B&O Wagon Top Box Car    1 set
HT-50    Cities Service Tank "Older Scheme" 1 set
HN-4    D&RGW white lettering    1 set
HB-3    Erie Box Car    1 set
HD-19D    Express Reefer Dulux    1 set
BRH-37    FGE Express Blue Ribbon Set    $3.00    1 set
HB-142    GTW Box    1 set
HC-91    NYC Twin Hopper    1/2 set    $.50
NKP Stmld Alum/Blue Pass Car. 1 Coach/1 diner/Pullman    $5.00 1 set
PH-104    NKP    Alum/Blue Pass Car    1 set
HR-28    Oppenheimer Sausage Reefer    1 set
HC-120    PRR MOW Black    1 set
HB-155A    PRR Merchandise Box Car    1 set
HN-87    SAL  White    1 set
HB-351    Southern Box    1 set
HT-52    Union Tank Line UTLX    1 set
PH-115    Pullman Std Pass Car    1 set
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, Va.
 
 
 


Champ Decals for sale

Charles Hladik
 

 
 
    Below is a list of the Data, lettering etc of Champ decals that I have for sale. Some may have a few pieces missing, but very few and others may be several of the same set in one envelope for convenience.
 
K-5     Circus Data & Scrolls, BLUE                $2.00    1 pkg
 
X-10    White Numbers 7/64"                            $2.00    2 pkg
 
X-16    White Numbers 9/64"                            $2.00    2 pkg
 
HD-1    Box Car Data 40 ton                             $10.00    6 in 1 pkg  
 
HD-2    Box Car Data 50 ton                            $2.00    1 pkg
 
HD-4    Twin Hopper Data50/55 ton                $2.00   1 
 
HD-6    Gon 50/70 T, 41-65 Ft                        $2.00    1
 
HD-12    40/50 Ft Box Car Data Black            $2.00    1
 
HD-16D    Steam Loco Tender Data Dulux    $2.00    1
 
HD-25D    Pass Car Scrolls and Orn Dulux    $2.00    2
 
HD-26    Watch your Step Blk/Wht Pass        $2.00    2
 
HD-33W    Steam Tender Capy Wht RR Roman    $2.00   3
 
    All for $35.00 plus postage. Contact me OFF LIST, if not I will ignore the request.
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA. 24588
434-941-7456
 
 
 
                                     
 
 


Re: Car Service Rules

Aley, Jeff A
 

Dan,

 

               Thanks for sharing your expertise.  The 1951 compliance numbers are abysmal.  Do you have any idea why?

               Since I model 1951, it sounds like I could assign cars randomly, and be prototypical : -)

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 1:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car Service Rules

 

 

I'll add to Tony's comments based on my 42 year railroad career, which predates list, but I was hanging around with agency and car distributors as early as 1964 and did do car ordering, supply and distribution.

Under Car Service Rule 15 which stated "shippers were responsible for making a request with local agents concerning cars needed for loading, a specific date, the commodity to be loaded and the destination of the car." This information was placed on a request for empties form, each railroad had a different variations, but they all had them.  Lacking a car on hand at the station, the request was forwarded to local yard and or the car distributor in attempt to locate and appropriate car.  Lacking a car on the division the request was escalated to adjacent divisions.  Once an appropriate empty was found, even if it involved a backhaul, it was sent to the station for loading.  Agent noted the car on his industry request form noting the car initial and number that was provided for the specific load.  Car Service Division liked to go thru these reports and audit them for compliance.

Agency personal were responsible for notifying customer which car was being provided for which load.  Not always adhered to, but done most of the time.  In the case of Freight Houses, specific locations for specific destinations were specified making the job of assigning a correct empty a little easier.

Most local and switch crews did provide the correct cars to the correct shipper.

Bill of Lading was usually not provided to agent until after car was loaded.

Car Service Division did audit compliance, but non-compliance usually found a Car Service rep explaining why it was important to follow the Rules and little else.  However, he would quickly remind you when your terminal wasn't getting enough cars, that the local non-compliance had caused car supply problems elsewhere which were now reflected at your terminal.

At my Napervillle RPM Car Service presentation I presented the compliance numbers.  Here they are again.
1926 to 1929, 81.6 percent average compliance, 1934-1940 76.5 percent average compliance.  1941 to 1948 ODT controls freight car fleet, but enforcement of Car Service Rules begins again in March 1947.  May 1949 44.4 percent compliance, March 1951 18.8 percent compliance, July 1951 30 percent compliance, June 1954 62 percent compliance, June 1955 63 percent compliance, July 1956 65 percent compliance, July 1959 64 percent compliance.  In 1959 freight houses average 81 percent compliance with industries averaging 61 percent.

ICC "Service Orders" were legal and binding and had the authority of law.  Fines could be assessed for non-compliance.  Car Service Rules and "Special Orders" were not mandatory.  There were NO fines for non-compliance.

Dan Holbrook



---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Jim Betz wrote (in part):

 

 

  And what about this question - did the clerks who made up
the list of cars to be delivered to an industry actually know
what would be loaded into that particular car (where it would
be routed) ... before the car was pulled from the empties in the
yard?
  I've always thought that an industry called in an order for a car
(or cars) of a particular type ("Send us 4 boxcars") and the RR
delivered ... but the RR didn't know what the routing of any
individual car would be until after it was loaded.  Not true?  

 

    Jim, your general questions have simple answers, and I will try to be brief. Shippers told the local agent what cars they needed, and where they were going. That information was transmitted to car distributors at the appropriate regional yard, who selected the car to send. So in fact, the empty car might well be selected for exactly each shipper's load. Of course, home road cars were used too, and were more interchangeable (relative to Car Service Rules).

     But the shipper did NOT say "send us 4 box cars," they said "we need 2 box cars going to St. Louis., one to Memphis, and one to Atlanta." The shipper chose the routing, and the formal car request was the Bill of Lading document, from which the Waybill was made out, but the shipper could less formally request empties with just the bare-bones information of what cars, and to where.

     All this has been well documented in many publications, and I have summarized it in clinics and magazine articles, as well as on my blog.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 


Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Dennis,

I'm looking at the PGE roster in the 1958 ORER, and seeing mostly state-of-the-art equipment, by then at least. I wasn't able to find photos or data on most of their cars, and I'm sure some of them were rolling relics, but these stood out:

XM 4101-4300 w/8' doors, built 1958 by NSC. They also had series 4001-4075 with 6' doors, and otherwise similar dimensions. I have no picture of these, but they are listed as all-steel. By this time all their older wooden boxcars were gone, rebuilt as stock cars or scrapped.

RAMH 820-824, 825-834 and 835-844, all-steel 8-hatch reefers built by NSC in 1954, 1956 and 1958 respectively.

FM 1220-1469, 52' 6" steel-underframe flats with a 155000 capacity.

HM 200-229 and 261-280, 40', 140,000  capacity, 2775 cubic foot hoppers.

Those all sound like reasonably new cars. There are other all-steel hoppers of smaller capacity, some 52' 6" solid-bottom gondolas with fixed ends, though these may have had wooden sides.

It makes me wonder if the PG&E had agreements with their connecting roads to return their cars promptly, and not let them become free runners. Perhaps they needed every car to cover their own customers?

Your Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/3/15 8:48 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Not to get too far afield, but to give a better sense of what we're looking at as far as the PGE of the 40's and 50's was concerned...

Someone else has mentioned the Oregon Electric in this discussion. OE was, at one time, more of a heavy duty electric interurban system than a railroad, similar to Pacific Electric. When the OE abandoned their passenger service, some of the wood passenger cars were de-motored and went north for continued service on the PGE. Here is a link to a photo of one of the cars, now in the service of the Black Hills Central tourist railroad:

Panoramio - Photo of Black Hills Central Railroad Passenger Car at Hill City, SD

I don't think the PGE freight car fleet of the post WWII years was any more modern.

Dennis Storzek

 



Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Benjamin Hom
 


Bill Welch wrote:
"I was unaware there was a Volume Three, or even Vol. 2 of this title."

There were 11 volumes:
Vol. 1: 40 Foot Box Cars
Vol. 2: Tank Cars
Vol. 3: Refrigerator Cars
Vol. 4: 40 Ft. Open & Closed Hopper Cars (mistitled as it contained many photos of shorter hoppers)
Vol. 5: N.E. Railroad Work Equipment
Vol. 6: Loaded Flats and Gondolas
Vol. 7: More 40 Ft. Boxcars
Vol. 8: 50 Ft. Boxcars
Vol. 9: Insulated Boxcars & Mechanical Reefers
Vol. 10: North American Work Trains & Equipment
Vol. 11: High Capacity Covered Hoppers
 
These are nice collections of mostly 1960s and 1970s rolling stock photos; however, treat all captions as suspect as there are many errors, including a few that are absolute howlers.
 
 
Ben Hom


Re: Car Service Rules

lstt100
 

I'll add to Tony's comments based on my 42 year railroad career, which predates list, but I was hanging around with agency and car distributors as early as 1964 and did do car ordering, supply and distribution.

Under Car Service Rule 15 which stated "shippers were responsible for making a request with local agents concerning cars needed for loading, a specific date, the commodity to be loaded and the destination of the car." This information was placed on a request for empties form, each railroad had a different variations, but they all had them.  Lacking a car on hand at the station, the request was forwarded to local yard and or the car distributor in attempt to locate and appropriate car.  Lacking a car on the division the request was escalated to adjacent divisions.  Once an appropriate empty was found, even if it involved a backhaul, it was sent to the station for loading.  Agent noted the car on his industry request form noting the car initial and number that was provided for the specific load.  Car Service Division liked to go thru these reports and audit them for compliance.

Agency personal were responsible for notifying customer which car was being provided for which load.  Not always adhered to, but done most of the time.  In the case of Freight Houses, specific locations for specific destinations were specified making the job of assigning a correct empty a little easier.

Most local and switch crews did provide the correct cars to the correct shipper.

Bill of Lading was usually not provided to agent until after car was loaded.

Car Service Division did audit compliance, but non-compliance usually found a Car Service rep explaining why it was important to follow the Rules and little else.  However, he would quickly remind you when your terminal wasn't getting enough cars, that the local non-compliance had caused car supply problems elsewhere which were now reflected at your terminal.

At my Napervillle RPM Car Service presentation I presented the compliance numbers.  Here they are again.
1926 to 1929, 81.6 percent average compliance, 1934-1940 76.5 percent average compliance.  1941 to 1948 ODT controls freight car fleet, but enforcement of Car Service Rules begins again in March 1947.  May 1949 44.4 percent compliance, March 1951 18.8 percent compliance, July 1951 30 percent compliance, June 1954 62 percent compliance, June 1955 63 percent compliance, July 1956 65 percent compliance, July 1959 64 percent compliance.  In 1959 freight houses average 81 percent compliance with industries averaging 61 percent.

ICC "Service Orders" were legal and binding and had the authority of law.  Fines could be assessed for non-compliance.  Car Service Rules and "Special Orders" were not mandatory.  There were NO fines for non-compliance.

Dan Holbrook



---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Jim Betz wrote (in part):

 

  And what about this question - did the clerks who made up
the list of cars to be delivered to an industry actually know
what would be loaded into that particular car (where it would
be routed) ... before the car was pulled from the empties in the
yard?
  I've always thought that an industry called in an order for a car
(or cars) of a particular type ("Send us 4 boxcars") and the RR
delivered ... but the RR didn't know what the routing of any
individual car would be until after it was loaded.  Not true?  


    Jim, your general questions have simple answers, and I will try to be brief. Shippers told the local agent what cars they needed, and where they were going. That information was transmitted to car distributors at the appropriate regional yard, who selected the car to send. So in fact, the empty car might well be selected for exactly each shipper's load. Of course, home road cars were used too, and were more interchangeable (relative to Car Service Rules).
     But the shipper did NOT say "send us 4 box cars," they said "we need 2 box cars going to St. Louis., one to Memphis, and one to Atlanta." The shipper chose the routing, and the formal car request was the Bill of Lading document, from which the Waybill was made out, but the shipper could less formally request empties with just the bare-bones information of what cars, and to where.
     All this has been well documented in many publications, and I have summarized it in clinics and magazine articles, as well as on my blog.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Bill Welch
 

Hi JP

I was unaware there was a volume Three, or even Vol. 2 of this title.

Sunshine offered two wood sheathed and one steel sheathed kits. I built all three. The MDT car we really need is what Roger Hinman used to call their Type IV with a Fishbelly U/F and wood ends. These have purportedly been in the works for a few years now but I have begun to have serious doubts these will ever be seen unless someone new enters the picture to do them. Many lessees and paint schemes. Too bad, I think these would do very well. Oh well, I have plenty to keep me busy.

Bill Welch


Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 1:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

 

 

Hi, people-     This morning I was looking for the abovementioned soft cover, but didn’t find that I have one. Can anyone tell me if this volume was actually published, or not? If so, by whom and when?

 

If the volume was published, would anyone know where there’s a copy for sale?

 

At the moment, I am gathering all my MDT reefer photos together as part of making some more correct scale models than currently commercially available. Any thoughts you might have about MDT reefer picture availability would be most welcome.

 

TIA,     JP Barger


Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

Allan Smith
 

Classic Freight Cars VIII by John Henderson printed by GRIT Commercial Printing Co PO Box 965 Williamsport PA 17703-0965.
I haven"t seen one in the shops for some time. Maybe try Ebay.

Al Smith
Sonora CA



On Thursday, September 3, 2015 1:22 PM, "'JP Barger' bargerjp@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Hi, people-     This morning I was looking for the abovementioned soft cover, but didn’t find that I have one. Can anyone tell me if this volume was actually published, or not? If so, by whom and when?
 
If the volume was published, would anyone know where there’s a copy for sale?
 
At the moment, I am gathering all my MDT reefer photos together as part of making some more correct scale models than currently commercially available. Any thoughts you might have about MDT reefer picture availability would be most welcome.
 
TIA,     JP Barger



Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars

JP Barger
 

Hi, people-     This morning I was looking for the abovementioned soft cover, but didn’t find that I have one. Can anyone tell me if this volume was actually published, or not? If so, by whom and when?

 

If the volume was published, would anyone know where there’s a copy for sale?

 

At the moment, I am gathering all my MDT reefer photos together as part of making some more correct scale models than currently commercially available. Any thoughts you might have about MDT reefer picture availability would be most welcome.

 

TIA,     JP Barger


Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic

railsnw@...
 

A mention was made about transporting alcohol from the Pacific Northwest. In the SP&S Railway Historical Society Archives at the Pacific Northwest Railroad Archives we have Secretary Files that have yearly permits starting from the mid 1930's in to the 1960's  that read as follows but with a different year:

Permit with United States of America (Treasury Dept.) - Permit C-Ore-4-54 (Internal Revenue Service) to transport tax free alcohol and specially denatured alcohol during the year 1954

The ones that have been cataloged are mostly for the Oregon Trunk. Where was this alcohol coming from?

Richard Wilkens


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Tony Thompson
 

Dan Holbrook is quoted as writing:

 

  "Lumber mills would sell lumber to brokers who would ship lumber via the
   slowest possible routes to themselves at various locations around the country.


     I have spoken to railroad employees who regularly talked to such brokers, trying to get the traffic to move over their employer's rails. The broker had the full right to select routing and would choose whatever worked best, including diversions as Dan mentions.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot

Chuck Soule
 

I just attempted to post 3 photos I took earlier this year of BCOL 993016 - an ex PGE ex CPR mini box that is located at the railroad museum in Squamish.  The pictures are not showing up yet in the album.

The car as shown was retired from MOW service, but was probably acquired by PGE post 1958 from CPR.  Therefore, PGE probably did not use them during the steam era, but CPR certainly did.

In case my photos don't show up in the album, you can find other pictures online by searching for BCOL 993016

Chuck Soule


Re: Herald King & Champ Decals

Aley, Jeff A
 

Is that the old stock from Bruce’s Train Shop?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff Aley

Folsom, CA

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:18 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Herald King & Champ Decals

 

 

Hi all,

I just picked up over 4000-6000 out of stock Herald King and Champ decals. I was only looking for 2 and came away with the mother load! Now I have to explain it to my wife!!!!!! All are new in there original protective sleeves. Too many to list, so if you're looking for a specific decal, drop me a line.... $2.00 each plus postage at
amwing1588@...

Thanks
John Miller
Folsom, CA.


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

Tim O'Connor
 


I think both GN and NP served the Laurel interchange with the Q yes?

The "rollers" were sometimes routed via circuitous routes, further slowing
their progress, so they could be sold off and reconsigned.

This is a quote from a Dan Holbrook email to Proto-Layouts in 2011 --

  "Lumber mills would sell lumber to brokers who would ship lumber via the
   slowest possible routes to themselves at various locations around the country.
   Examples of popular diversion lumber routes: NP-Oakes,ND-CNW-Winona,MN-GBW-AA.
   NP and GN-Minneapolis-MNS-RI, MSTL or CGW.  CN-DWP-NP, GN or SOO to Minneapolis
   to MNS, RI, MSTL, CGW.  Popular destinations were Oelwein, IA on CGW,
   Northfield, MN on MNS, Peoria, IL on MSTL,  Marshalltown, IA on MSTL, Toledo, OH
   on various railroads, Chicago, IL on various railroads.  The more interchange
   locations the better."

Tim O'Connor


Gary Laasko asked "Given the Hill lines friendly CB&Q connection to Texas in Montana, was there significant GN and NP lumber traffic routed via CB&Q to Texas?�

As Greg Martin replied� Yes.

While my detailed statistics (from company correspondence, retiree interviews, broker records and actual waybills) are from a period five to ten years after the end date of this list, there clearly was a regular flow of Washington and Oregon forest products via NP Laurel to CB&Q/C&S/FW&D Dallas via Denver and Amarillo as well as a flow via NP Laurel/Huntley CB&Q to Lincoln Nebraska and on to Kansas City and beyond.

I have anecdotal references to these routes in the fifties, but my information is insufficient to state any volume numbers, percentages, etc.

Larry Rice
Port Townsend WA


Herald King & Champ Decals

amwing1588@...
 

Hi all,

I just picked up over 4000-6000 out of stock Herald King and Champ decals. I was only looking for 2 and came away with the mother load! Now I have to explain it to my wife!!!!!! All are new in there original protective sleeves. Too many to list, so if you're looking for a specific decal, drop me a line.... $2.00 each plus postage at
amwing1588@...

Thanks
John Miller
Folsom, CA.


Re: PS-1 Boxcars w/8'doors

Benjamin Hom
 

John Miller asked:
"Does anyone have the date that most roads started to convert there PS-1 Boxcars with 6' doors to 8' doors?"

Do you really mean converted as in rebuilt from 6 ft to 8 ft door openings, or built new with 8 ft door openings?
 
"Would you see any of the 8' door PS-1's in the late 40's/early 50's?"

Yes.  The earliest cars would be SOU 23487-26486, built new with 8 ft doors in February 1948.  See Ed Hawkins' PS-1 spreadsheet at http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/PullmanStandard40ftPS1boxcars.xls
for more information.
 
 
Ben Hom


PS-1 Boxcars w/8'doors

amwing1588@...
 

Hi all,

Does anyone have the date that most roads started to convert there PS-1 Boxcars with 6' doors to 8' doors? Would you see any of the 8' door PS-1's in the late 40's/early50's?

Thanks
John Miller
Folsom, CA.


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