Date   

Re: Using the Loctite for Plastics product

Bill Welch
 

I may do that Jack. I think I will experiment with some steps I don't need to build my confidence using the product. Yes  did the same with wheels and propellers.

Bill Welch


Re: Custom Decals

peteraue
 

I find it quite disappointing that subject is again turning into a lengthy copyright debate instead of focusing on the technical and logistical issues involved in printing custom decals in small quantities.

You asked questions and I'll try to answer them the best I can:
1. Suitable graphics artwork: Vector graphics files like Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw file formats. I use Corel Draw X6 for my artwork and will only send Corel Draw files to my supplier, however I can import AI files into Corel Draw.
2. Use of scanned or copied images: I am not aware of any technique to transform a pixel file like a JPG file or a TIF file into a vector graphics file other than manually redrawing the image. Therefore I cannot print any scanned images.
3. Decal sheet size: Though the Roland Versacamm printer of my supplier is capable of printing very large sheets, decals are normally printed on European A4 size sheets, which is roughly equivalent to letter size. To fit the artwork comfortably on the sheets and minimize shipping cost, I am asking for 8" wide and no more than 3-3/4" tall artwork. If you need more space, split the artwork into several pieces but use 3-3/4" height whenever possible.
4. Type of ink: As one of the group members already posted, the eco-solvent ink of the Versacamm printer is solvent based and UV cured. There is no such thing as bleeding colors when subjected to water.
5. Multiple colors: Any combination of colors within the CMYK color palette plus white plus metallic colors can be printed on the same sheet at no extra cost.
6. Cost: 50.00 US $ for a full A4 size sheet. Cost for partial sheets are prorated depending on the space needed.
7. Delivery time: In order to keep cost under control, I need to accumulate multiple print jobs before I place print orders. I may also need to put some work into the graphics files to allow white and metallic printing because they are not covered by the CMYK color palette. Last but not least, I take the liberty to travel extensively at times so in a nut shell, the delivery time may be as long as 2 - 3 months, though I try to keep it below a month.
8. Payment: PayPal only. I cannot handle checks. I will not ask for money before I have your decals in my hands ready for shipping.

I hope this answers most questions. The fact that I need vector graphics files pretty much eliminates any copyright issues because in my naive legal opinion I believe that you can draw pretty much everything without infringing any copyrights.

Peter Aue

 


Re: [Ops-Ind] car placement - 1960

Tony Thompson
 

Eric Hiser wrote:

 
In addition, Santa Fe Superintendent’s Bulletin from 1960 states:

“50. INFLAMMABLES AND EXPLOSIVES:

  (a) INSTRUCTIONS GOVERNING:  Conductors must have and be governed by B. E. Pamphlet 20-G, effective February 1, 1953 condensed rules from ICC Regulations on handling explosives and inflammable articles, etc.”


      I understand there were pamphlets or booklets, listing cargoes (gasoline, liquid chlorine, LPG, acetone, etc.) and the placard to be used for each. One might wonder whether chlorine, for example, was mostly a poison or a compressed gas, probably the former. But there must have been a listing. I have been told that such lists exist but haven't seen one. Would it have been the ICC document in Eric's citation? Maybe Guy WIlber knows.
       An appendix to Ed Kaminski's book on AC&F Tank Cars shows what car types (ICC classes) could carry certain cargoes, but does not indicate anything about the placards to be applied. Writing waybills for correct cargoes in a particular ICC class of car is a start, but what placards should the model carry?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Custom Decals

sprinthag@...
 

As regards decal sets currently in production/stock by the original maker/seller I will only use these sets for making a set in a scale that is not available from said printer/seller. And I will question as to their willingness to do so.

That said I do a lot of stuff in O scale which is a very small market these days. Very few decal printers/resellers (which means they had to buy a whole production run in order to sell them) are willing to invest the money for O scale. But, if you do your own printing you can print as many (or as few) as you wish. I have a few local O scaler's in the area that will pay $12.00 for as many sets that can be printed on a 5.5 X 8.5 sheet. If they are of prototype rr's then I invest my own time in the artwork as I can sell to others. Custom work, such as the Bowtie and GTO RR pay for artwork.

John Hagen


Re: Using the Loctite for Plastics product

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

Cody Grivno described the use of two part LocTite system in his article, Repair and Paint Acetal Handrails, published in the Kalmbach book, Workshop Tips and Projects for Model Railroaders, complete with lots of pictures.



Nelson Moyer



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Using the Loctite for Plastics product





In the next day or two I plan to use the two-part Loctite glue to attach the Delrin sill steps to two CofG ventilated boxcars. The sill steps have the typical small pegs on the reverse side to fit into predrilled holes on the car's sides. The sill steps have been etched with Baking Soda to provide some tooth. I have read the directions and upon removing the cap of the Activator I note the applicator resembles a magic marker.



I have to admit I was anticipating a small brush which would make it easier to get the activator into the small holes and onto the mounting pins of the steps. A couple of questions for those that have used this product.



1.) Should I attempt to press some of the activator into the holes by pressing the tip against the side, which of course will apply some of the activator to the side where it will make contact with a small section of the sill step?



2.) Regarding the step parts, I know I should coat the pens or pegs and probably try to get some on the part of the step part that will contact the car side. Does the activator flow at all?



3.) I think I will apply the ACC into the pegs and the back part of the step that contacts the side. Does this make sense?



I think I will probably reinforce this will small amounts of Ace Hardware's "Two Ton Epoxy" on the backside of the sides.



Any wisdom appreciated here.



Bill Welch


Re: [Ops-Ind] car placement - 1960

Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
 

The Santa Fe’s 1959 rule book, Rule 820(H) states:

 

“Warning and commodity cards must be observed and their instructions complied with.” 

 

Which suggests that some blocking instructions may have been included on cards affixed to the cars in question.

 

In addition, Santa Fe Superintendent’s Bulletin from 1960 states:

 

“50. INFLAMMABLES AND EXPLOSIVES:

  (a) INSTRUCTIONS GOVERNING:  Conductors must have and be governed by B. E. Pamphlet 20-G, effective February 1, 1953 condensed rules from ICC Regulations on handling explosives and inflammable articles, etc.”

 

This suggests that there were ICC regulations that governed location.  Interestingly, paragraph (e) of this same section required that tank cars be spotted by the engine and not cut off. 

 

Eric Hiser

Phoenix, AZ


Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce F. Smith wrote:

 
Protection of heralds and lettering is TRADEMARK, not copyright.

     And a number of railroads, notably UP, which tried to gain trademark protection years after introducing the emblems, had their applications denied. Less is protected than you might think. And some railroads, such as Southern Pacific, explicitly announced (back in the day) that they did NOT wish to trademark their emblem, but would be pleased if others used it. With production of freight cars or freight car decals, anyone wishing to make sure they are "legal" would do well to find out what is protected and what is not.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Using the Loctite for Plastics product

Jack Burgess
 

Bill wrote:

I think I will probably reinforce this will small amounts of Ace Hardware's "Two Ton Epoxy" on the backside of the sides.

 

I'm not familiar with this kit but if the pins on the sill steps go completely through the side sill, could you touch an (old) heated screwdriver blade to them to these ends to melt them and form a rivet shape? I remember that technique from my old model kit days...

Jack Burgess


Re: Custom Decals

Bruce Smith
 

Mike,

Protection of heralds and lettering is TRADEMARK, not copyright.

Regards
Bruce Smith


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 5:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals




There's another consideration in the case of decal sets in that a decal seller such as Champ is offering the copyright-protected work of others, namely the intellectual property of the railroad companies depicted. Number jumbles and reporting marks are simply type in most cases. Some railroads still protect the vintage heralds.  All a decal maker can really protect by copyright is his presentation and packaging and brand. I kinda recall that Microscale was paying license fees on some of its decal sets.

I've chased after enough pirates to know that the reality of copyright infrigement is the ability to quantify damages in dollars. For someone on this list to copy and sell Champ's NP Monad herald to a couple of dozen modelers for a reasonable price such as $5, Warren Buffet's legal eagles likely won't be bothered.

Duplicate a current decal maker's sets, such as Westerfield or Funaro, and sell those? While the duplicate's presentation is such that there may not be a copyright issue, there's certainly an ethical one.

Just sayin'                    ....Mike Del Vecchio





-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Aug 5, 2014 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals

 
Alex Schneider wrote:

 
Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or whomever created the decal being copied.
If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

    Copyright law explicitly permits copies for personal use, as when you Xerox a magazine article or book page. It's called "fair use."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Custom Decals

MDelvec952@...
 


There's another consideration in the case of decal sets in that a decal seller such as Champ is offering the copyright-protected work of others, namely the intellectual property of the railroad companies depicted. Number jumbles and reporting marks are simply type in most cases. Some railroads still protect the vintage heralds.  All a decal maker can really protect by copyright is his presentation and packaging and brand. I kinda recall that Microscale was paying license fees on some of its decal sets.

I've chased after enough pirates to know that the reality of copyright infrigement is the ability to quantify damages in dollars. For someone on this list to copy and sell Champ's NP Monad herald to a couple of dozen modelers for a reasonable price such as $5, Warren Buffet's legal eagles likely won't be bothered.

Duplicate a current decal maker's sets, such as Westerfield or Funaro, and sell those? While the duplicate's presentation is such that there may not be a copyright issue, there's certainly an ethical one.

Just sayin'                    ....Mike Del Vecchio





-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Aug 5, 2014 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals

 
Alex Schneider wrote:

 
Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or whomever created the decal being copied.
If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

    Copyright law explicitly permits copies for personal use, as when you Xerox a magazine article or book page. It's called "fair use."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Using the Loctite for Plastics product

Bill Welch
 

In the next day or two I plan to use the two-part Loctite glue to attach the Delrin sill steps to two CofG ventilated boxcars. The sill steps have the typical small pegs on the reverse side to fit into predrilled holes on the car's sides. The sill steps have been etched with Baking Soda to provide some tooth. I have read the directions and upon removing the cap of the Activator I note the applicator resembles a magic marker.


I have to admit I was anticipating a small brush which would make it easier to get the activator into the small holes and onto the mounting pins of the steps. A couple of questions for those that have used this product.


1.) Should I attempt to press some of the activator into the holes by pressing the tip against the side, which of course will apply some of the activator to the side where it will make contact with a small section of the sill step?


2.) Regarding the step parts, I know I should coat the pens or pegs and probably try to get some on the part of the step part that will contact the car side. Does the activator flow at all?


3.) I think I will apply the ACC into the pegs and the back part of the step that contacts the side. Does this make sense?


I think I will probably reinforce this will small amounts of Ace Hardware's "Two Ton Epoxy" on the backside of the sides.


Any wisdom appreciated here.


Bill Welch


Re: Custom Decals

Bruce Smith
 

here we go again...

Curt comes closest.  Decals and model kits are NOT copyright protected.  They are themselves representations of real world items (whether that is the steam era freight car, or the lettering on it) and are therefore NOT the result of the creative input of the decal or kit producer. Whether or not it is ETHICAL to copy someone else's decals or kits parts is a separate issue that is up to each individual to decide.

Regards
Bruce Smith 
temporarily in Saint Looey


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 3:31 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals




You can't copyright history.  My point is that they have their artwork of a real logo, herald, etc.  They don't own the railroad logos, just their version of it. You draw your own and it's not a copyright violation in regards to Champ's stuff.  I'm probably muddying the waters but my point is so what if Champ is defunct.  If you have data anything can be redone.  No I'm not suggesting you just redraw theirs.  We lost quite a few custom printers during the bad years, but several more have come forward.  Even Microscale is growing their line again.

Curt Fortenberry



Re: Athearn Coors and Carnation

Charles Hladik
 

Garth,
    I think we (Trains Unlimited) epiphed them right out the door.
Chuck Hladik
 

In a message dated 8/5/2014 5:58:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Richard,

I can't tell you if either scheme was real, but the Carnation cars were available well into the blue box era. I had two of them in the 1980s, without the clunky hinged doors of the early 1960s yellow-box days. That was before we had books and other resources for prototype accuracy, and I was as innocent as most of us. They went to a local hobby shop when I had my freight car epiphany.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/14 2:05 PM, richtownsend@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Back in the yellow box days Athearn produced models of reefers decorated for Coors and Carnation.   The Coors reefer is yellow with a logo for Coors Banquet beer and the Carnation reefer is white with the milk can and Carnation Milk in red on the sides. If you search eBay for "Athearn Coors" and "Athearn Carnation" you will see what I mean.  Neither car's P/L scheme is like any prototype car I have ever seen photos of.  The white Carnation P/L scheme bears no resemblance to the yellow schemes that FGEX and General American ran for them and have been available from Branchline and TMI and others, and the yellow Coors scheme looks nothing like the famous white one that TMI and MDC did versions of.  So my question is this: are these Athearn schemes total foobies, or did such cars ever exist, if even for a railroad fair of some kind?
 
Richard Townsend


Re: Athearn Coors and Carnation

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Richard,

I can't tell you if either scheme was real, but the Carnation cars were available well into the blue box era. I had two of them in the 1980s, without the clunky hinged doors of the early 1960s yellow-box days. That was before we had books and other resources for prototype accuracy, and I was as innocent as most of us. They went to a local hobby shop when I had my freight car epiphany.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/14 2:05 PM, richtownsend@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Back in the yellow box days Athearn produced models of reefers decorated for Coors and Carnation.   The Coors reefer is yellow with a logo for Coors Banquet beer and the Carnation reefer is white with the milk can and Carnation Milk in red on the sides. If you search eBay for "Athearn Coors" and "Athearn Carnation" you will see what I mean.  Neither car's P/L scheme is like any prototype car I have ever seen photos of.  The white Carnation P/L scheme bears no resemblance to the yellow schemes that FGEX and General American ran for them and have been available from Branchline and TMI and others, and the yellow Coors scheme looks nothing like the famous white one that TMI and MDC did versions of.  So my question is this: are these Athearn schemes total foobies, or did such cars ever exist, if even for a railroad fair of some kind?
 
Richard Townsend


Re: Custom Decals

hees@...
 

Peter, A couple of friends and I have been trying to print multi color decals for early Baldwin locomotives... I have been trying to email you privatly, but the new improved Yahoo and I are fighting...

Randyhees@...

Thanks...


Re: Custom Decals

sprinthag@...
 

This is all pretty much a moot point as to directly copy Champ's decals would not be a good thing to do. Although I agree that Champs had probably the best there was to be had back in "the day", their stuff is not up to todays standards.

What they have that is good is the content of their products; i.e. all the data and designs that were included on their sets.

I often "copy" old sets of decals for reproduction. What that means is doing a high res scan of the set and then drawing all new, vector artwork using the old sets as a guide. While going about it I generally search out any prototype photos I can find to ensure that the fonts and designs I am drawing are accurate. Champ was were the best researched, in my opinion, sets available but many others were not all the good. Several used printer fonts that were "close enough" but in fact, were not all that close. Also the older printers cannot match the definition of modern printers. I once took a magnifying class to some commercial GB&W diesel decals with the "checker board" frame stripes and those individual little blocks went more directions than there are points on a compass. While not noticable on the typical HO model without close inspection, what if these were enlarged to O scale? What if this was to be a judged contest model where close inspection is the norm?

Besides, when redrawing the sets can be modified to more specifically meet the end users needs.

So we have an old set used as a pattern. it has all new artwork and probably has several changes to up-date and individualize them. So just how much of a copyrights infringement are we talking here? Taking an ols set, scanning it and using that scan to reprint may indeed be an infringement but then, other than say, Microscale, who is going to go through the trouble to sue? And besides, all the infringement cases I've heard of (this is going way beyond just decals) the injured party begins with a strong letter threatening legal action if teh person doing the copying/selling does not desist. So there generally is fair warning if one gets nabbed copying copyrighted material.

John Hagen


Re: Custom Decals

Dave Campbell <drdavecampbell@...>
 

I try to follow along via the digest...  which is a challenge.  But did anyone get an answer to the "what file format is appropriate for the art" question?

Dave Campbell


Re: Custom Decals

Curt Fortenberry
 


You can't copyright history.  My point is that they have their artwork of a real logo, herald, etc.  They don't own the railroad logos, just their version of it. You draw your own and it's not a copyright violation in regards to Champ's stuff.  I'm probably muddying the waters but my point is so what if Champ is defunct.  If you have data anything can be redone.  No I'm not suggesting you just redraw theirs.  We lost quite a few custom printers during the bad years, but several more have come forward.  Even Microscale is growing their line again.

Curt Fortenberry


Re: Custom Decals

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

That¹s news!

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:43 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals







actually the rights for champ's business is held

by portland car & foundry in portland oregon
mel perry

On Aug 5, 2014, at 12:34 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:


Not only that, but Camp is defunct as a business. No one picked up their
line, unlike, say, copying Herald King.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals

Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for
my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.
Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case
you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from
plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

Tim O'

>Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers
or
whomever created the decal being copied.
>
>If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant
you
permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.
>
>Alex Schneider













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Central Vermont wood boxcar color

midrly
 

Marty--

Photos that I've seen of GTW cars make me wonder about their colour choice as well.  That green wafer was used by the GTW as well on its two orders of 40' boxcars in 1948 (?) and 1953.  Yet GTW passenger equipment seems to have used the Maple Leaf logo.  

My default paint for newly shopped CN and CN family road cars is CN Red #11, but time and weathering were never kind to the pigments in STMFC paint.  CN cars were no exception.  An assiduously copyrighted F.D.Shaw 1958 photo of Palmerston, Ontario above my workbench shows eighteen CN cars with eighteen different shades of what started as the CN Red #11 that these cars would have been painted in.  CN submitted small cans of wet paint samples to manufacturers for colour matching. Between weathering and possible differences from manufacturers components' pigments, and colour sensitivity of those matching the paint, modellers thus have a lot of leeway when painting any CN STMFC's.   

CN stencilled the manufacturer's name in approximately one inch lettering centred under the car number in 1950's repaints.  Probably to determine whose paint held up best over time.  Examples here--
Old Time Trains