Date   

Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Richard Townsend
 

It would work, but it sounds so . . . so vestie.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

 
Richard

how about "innies" vs "outies" ?

Tim O'


Would "major corrugations concave/convex" be useful?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

 
Tim O'Connor wrote:

 
I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.

We need a terminology standards committee! :-)

     I certainly agree we ought to settle on a terminology. To me, "inverted" is "upside down." If I invert my coffee cup, it's not a mirror image. My own position is that ends may be reversed, meaning ribs facing inward to the car instead of outward (whether a corrugated or dreadnaught end), or they may be recessed, meaning that the end is kind of pushed in until its outer edges are flush with the center rib surfaces. So in my lexicon, there is no "inverted end" unless someone does one upside down.

Tony Thompson  


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Tim O'Connor
 

David I think you have exactly the right idea -- We really need simply
to enumerate all of the different ends. There really are not that many,
maybe 40 or 50 different steel ends should cover about 95% of all-steel
house cars. Ed Hawkins did some enumeration of Youngstown doors so that
he could describe different doors found on box cars -- YSD-1, YSD-2, YSD-2a,
and so on. I've made my own lists of doors and ends for my own prototype notes.

Tim O'Connor

Not for Dreadnaught ends. The problem comes in defining the arrangement of the corrugations in relation to the base plane of the end stampings. Probably just have to give up the whole "inverse/reverse/etc." terminology and define some Phase or Type numbers.

David Thompson


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

Oh Tony, that's so 2-dimensional of you :-) You can invert around any axis, or even all of them at the same time.


   Speaking as someone not only familiar with crystallography, but someone who actually taught it, I agree entirely. But saying "mirror image" does not mean the same as "inversion" in everyday language, which was my point previously (let's not standardize on an arcane term). More seriously, a mirror image of a conventional dreadnaught end does NOT result in a reversed end pattern. Try it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

how about "innies" vs "outies" ?

Tim O'


Would "major corrugations concave/convex" be useful?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

 
Tim O'Connor wrote:

 
I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.

We need a terminology standards committee! :-)

     I certainly agree we ought to settle on a terminology. To me, "inverted" is "upside down." If I invert my coffee cup, it's not a mirror image. My own position is that ends may be reversed, meaning ribs facing inward to the car instead of outward (whether a corrugated or dreadnaught end), or they may be recessed, meaning that the end is kind of pushed in until its outer edges are flush with the center rib surfaces. So in my lexicon, there is no "inverted end" unless someone does one upside down.

Tony Thompson  


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Tim O'Connor
 


Oh Tony, that's so 2-dimensional of you :-) You can invert around any axis,
or even all of them at the same time.

Tim "reciprocal of one" O'Connor



I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.

We need a terminology standards committee! :-)

     I certainly agree we ought to settle on a terminology. To me, "inverted" is "upside down." If I invert my coffee cup, it's not a mirror image. My own position is that ends may be reversed, meaning ribs facing inward to the car instead of outward (whether a corrugated or dreadnaught end), or they may be recessed, meaning that the end is kind of pushed in until its outer edges are flush with the center rib surfaces. So in my lexicon, there is no "inverted end" unless someone does one upside down.

Tony Thompson 


Re: InterMoutain re-running Terry Wegman's PFE reefer tooling

Richard Townsend
 

The IM website shows:
 
R-30-18 in single herald (6 numbers), double herald color (6 numbers), double herald black & white (6 numbers)
R-30-12-18 Stripe (5 numbers)
R-40-19 single herald (6 numbers)
R-30-21 single herald (6 numbers), double herald color (6 numbers)
 
Reservations due by Jan 31, available July/August
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 2:07 pm
Subject: [STMFC] InterMoutain re-running Terry Wegman's PFE reefer tooling

 
The latest newsletter form InterMountain notes that they are doing another run of PFE 30-18, -19 & -21 reefers. These utilize the tooling cut by the late Terry Wegman which means we owe a debt of gratitude to someone for helping to recoup the tooling from Terry's estate. My two models were built using kits I purchased from Terry and include brass sills steps created by him by burning out some of this delrin steps and I am honored by having something of his. The NL does not say what paint schemes these carry, but if they for your modeling period, get them NOW as they won't come around often I bet.

Long live Terry!

Bill Welch
 


InterMoutain re-running Terry Wegman's PFE reefer tooling

Bill Welch
 

The latest newsletter form InterMountain notes that they are doing another run of PFE 30-18, -19 & -21 reefers. These utilize the tooling cut by the late Terry Wegman which means we owe a debt of gratitude to someone for helping to recoup the tooling from Terry's estate. My two models were built using kits I purchased from Terry and include brass sills steps created by him by burning out some of this delrin steps and I am honored by having something of his. The NL does not say what paint schemes these carry, but if they for your modeling period, get them NOW as they won't come around often I bet.


Long live Terry!


Bill Welch

 


Seeking Photo For SP Conversion Caboose

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

In the 1940's SP converted some 60' coaches to caboose service.  Tony covered this in his caboose book. Bob Smause also did an article in MR.

Some cars had the caboose markings stenciled in the area of the original car number.  Some had a black patch painted in this area.  It is the latter that I am seeking photo help on.  Also did these cars retain the Southern Pacific lettering on the letterboard above the windows?

Thanks in advance.

Bill Pardie








Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "jaydeet2001@... [STMFC]"
Date:12/08/2014 09:10 (GMT-10:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

 

Not for Dreadnaught ends. The problem comes in defining the arrangement of the corrugations in relation to the base plane of the end stampings. Probably just have to give up the whole "inverse/reverse/etc." terminology and define some Phase or Type numbers.

David Thompson


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 


Innie vs. outie?  Maybe this lacks the proper gravitas for serious modelers, but is adequately descriptive  

 

Aidrian



 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 
I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.




Re: Car weight question

sccooper@...
 


Arved

Thanks for that,I found the relevant rules in my 1953 ORER.

Steve


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

David
 

Not for Dreadnaught ends. The problem comes in defining the arrangement of the corrugations in relation to the base plane of the end stampings. Probably just have to give up the whole "inverse/reverse/etc." terminology and define some Phase or Type numbers.

David Thompson


Re: Car weight question

Edward
 

Some things to keep in mind:

When the LT WT changed on a re-weigh, so did the LD LMT.
Both of these had to add up to a specific figure based on the car's axle and journal bearing size. That in turn, was also determined by the nominal capacity, shown on the CAPY line.
 
The LT WT and LD LMT added together gives the maximum weight on the rails for that car. On a re-weigh, BOTH lines change but still add up to the  same maximum weight on the rails. CAPY stays the same as it is nominal, not specific.

Here is a table of that maximum weight, based on 33" diameter wheels
(AAR Interchange Rule 86, prior to 1960):

AXLE CODE     JOURNAL (in.)  NOM.CAPY (lbs)  MAX WT on RAIL (lbs)
     A                 3 3/4 x 7             40,000                 66,000
     B                 4 1/4 x 8             60,000               103,000
     C                   5 x 9                 80,000               136,000
     D                5 1/2 x 10           100,000               169,000
     E                   6 x 11              140,000               210,000              

Re-weighing was to be done after repairs or every 30 months, which ever came first. In 1949 the time was extended to 48 months for steel box cars, stock cars, flat cars and refrigerator cars. Cars having wood or composite wood and steel bodies had to be reweighed every 15 months.

When a car is weighed, there is also a letter or letter and number code that identified the location of the scale used. Each road had its own list of weigh station codes or symbols.

 If an off-line car was reweighed, it would get the letter code of the railroad doing that as well as its reporting initials following the date on the re-weigh line. The style of lettering would be the same as the railroad doing the weighing. That's because their stencils were on hand for that job. Any change in lettering style would also be seen on the LD LMT and LT WT lines if the LT WT had changed.

For a reweigh, the area of the LD LMT and LT WT lines were painted out with whatever base color was close - or even different sometimes. The new weights would be be freshly stenciled on that patch, along with the weigh station code and date. Also the weighing railroad's report mark initials for an off-line car. Cars weighed off-line were generally weighed again by the home road when found.

So with re-weigh weight decals, the various mix of LT and LD LMT weights should be in correct sets when both lines are added together. There may also need to be weigh station code symbols and perhaps some reporting mark initials as well in that set.

One way to create a fresher 'patch' for the re-weigh on a model, is to mask off the LD LMT and LT WT area before applying any weathering.

Ed Bommer


Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Richard Townsend
 

Would "major corrugations concave/convex" be useful?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Dec 8, 2014 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

 
Tim O'Connor wrote:

 
I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.

We need a terminology standards committee! :-)

     I certainly agree we ought to settle on a terminology. To me, "inverted" is "upside down." If I invert my coffee cup, it's not a mirror image. My own position is that ends may be reversed, meaning ribs facing inward to the car instead of outward (whether a corrugated or dreadnaught end), or they may be recessed, meaning that the end is kind of pushed in until its outer edges are flush with the center rib surfaces. So in my lexicon, there is no "inverted end" unless someone does one upside down.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Surviving WP & SN DS box cars

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

I'm with Andy here. Turning the end 180 degrees is just "reversed". "Inverted" is more like a mirror image, which is what this looks like to me.

We need a terminology standards committee! :-)


     I certainly agree we ought to settle on a terminology. To me, "inverted" is "upside down." If I invert my coffee cup, it's not a mirror image. My own position is that ends may be reversed, meaning ribs facing inward to the car instead of outward (whether a corrugated or dreadnaught end), or they may be recessed, meaning that the end is kind of pushed in until its outer edges are flush with the center rib surfaces. So in my lexicon, there is no "inverted end" unless someone does one upside down.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Car weight question

Tony Thompson
 

paul doggett wrote:

 
What we need is a source of decals with just lots of reweigh weights on suitable for the steam era.

    Sunshine did exactly that set, but of course Sunshine materials are now unavailable and apparently will continue so.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: [EXTERNAL] Santa Fe wood sided Caswell gon #17492 with lots of gaps in the wood (UNCLASSIFIED)

gary laakso
 

  Thank you very much!

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock   



On Dec 8, 2014, at 9:08 AM, 'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gary;

I have done a number of wooden gondolas (and flat cars) which I distressed, or sometimes created broken boards, gaps, holes in flooring, etc. I used a new pointed blade, which I repeatedly scored the "wood" with to create cracks, gouge out hunks, and also make areas of "dry rot". I also took resin flat kits and sanded down the backs, scribed them, and then dragged the blade over them to create "grain", and to create board detail where there was none.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 6:27 PM
To: stmfc
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Santa Fe wood sided Caswell gon #17492 with lots of gaps in the wood

This is a great picture of Santa Fe gon # 17492 with lots of spaces showing sun light passing through gaps between parallel boards (not to mention some apparently broken boards). I guess that I need to thin my wood sides on some CB&Q gondolas moving up in the assemble the kit queque. Has anyone done this, and, if so, any tips?  

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1948-Aug-and-Sep-Salt-Lake/i-KbP8BdZ/A

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



Re: Scratch Building Ladders photos

Bill Welch
 

John, I will try to remember to include something about mounting when I write an update to my post when I upload a few more photos  just found as I put my presentation together. Basically I just use little bit of .030 x .030 styrene on the back of the ladder and matching rectangles of .005 styrene CA'ed to the car-side allowing Testors to be used allowing minor adjustment. Oh, I guess I just explained how!

Bill Welch


Re: Car weight question

arved_grass
 

Please see:

http://www.hosam.com/aar/reweigh.html

for a comprehensive answer to your question.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@yahoo.com or Arved@I-Do-Photography.com
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 12/8/14, sccooper@btinternet.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car weight question
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 8, 2014, 11:33 AM


 










This is an interesting
subject,I'd never have considered that different
trucks,renewed floors and even repaints could change a cars
weight-however,when you sit back and think about
it,well,yes,I  these things can.
Were cars reweighed each time they were overhauled?
Steve









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Re: diagonal panel roof drawing?

Tim O'Connor
 

Ben, I thought the Mainline Modeler drawing depicted a 41'6" IL box car.
Sure, it never existed, but I thought that the drawing showed the dimension
and accurately represented that length. Branchline's mistake was to build
to that drawing.

It may have been the May 1993 drawing, I don't recall exactly.

Tim O'Connor

At 12/8/2014 08:35 AM Monday, you wrote:
Clark Cone wrote:
"Ben - you said "Make sure you don't get the drawing that's 41 ft long"... Ha! which drawing is that?"

Whichever one Branchline used. Always verify any drawing, but especially Hundman's. I can think of at least three significant HO scale manufacturers' errors attributed to them - the initial run of Branchline postwar AAR boxcars, the botched lettering of the Ertl USRA DS boxcars, and the botched lettering of the pilot model and incorrect trucks on the Broadway Limited PRR Class K7A stock car.

Ben Hom


Re: Car weight question

sccooper@...
 


This is an interesting subject,I'd never have considered that different trucks,renewed floors and even repaints could change a cars weight-however,when you sit back and think about it,well,yes,I  these things can.

Were cars reweighed each time they were overhauled?

Steve

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