Date   

Re: Klein Modellbahn 2-dome tank car

Thorsten Petschallies
 

Gene,

are you sure about the history of these cars.
AFAIK, the prototypes for the Fleischmann models were built during or immidiately after WW1 for supplying the troops in the France WW1 theather.

After the war the were taken over by the French ministry of public works (ministeré des travaux publics) and therefore called "wagons TP".

Best regards 
Thorsten Petschallie

Von meinem tragbaren Endgerät gesendet

Am 15.01.2015 um 19:17 schrieb "genegreen1942@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>:

 

The Fleischmann models pictured on page 41 were created by the US military after World War Two when the planners "knew" the next big war would be in Europe.  There were 5 kit cars in the series.  In addition to the low- and high-side gondolas and box car shown there was a flat car and a tank car.  The flat car was merely the floor of the gondolas or box car without any sides, ends, etc.  The design was such that the cars could be assembled in-theater with troop or indigenous (unskilled) labor.  The expectation was that trucks and couplers would be scrounged in-theater.   I have an Army manual with plans and assembly instructions.


I submitted an article to RMC on the tank car kit but it was never published.  My material is being returned to me.  The point of the article was mainly that flat cars (the P2K model) were loaded in 1953, moved hither, thither and yon but not unloaded until the early 1980s.  Sort of solves the empty/load in open top cars conundrum in at least one instance.

I was stationed in Germany for 3 tours and spent every off-duty chance I could photographing railroad subjects.  I came across former US freight cars occasionally but never any of the kit cars nor the 2-dome tank car to the best of my recollection.

Gene Green
Out in the Badlands of New Mexico


Re: container gondolas

Charles Tapper
 

I like container gons, my main interest being the open and closed top drop bottom types and the controlled flow types, the former used for transporting coke, the latter things like lime, dolomite and ferroalloys. but I find the cement gons intriguing. How far afield did these things go? Were these designed only for the New York City market?
 
Here are some on-line resources  pertaining to the cars to add to the list I had picked up in compiling information on them, hope I am not duplicating any other post:
 
A D&H car drawing:
 
NYC diagram:
 
and this is a near shot:
 
Hope th e links work.
 
These cars all have extensive internal permanent steel blocking for the containers, which would make for an interesting build. I have seen some nice models in the past. The availability of USRA and clone 46' mill gons that were used in some of these conversions is a plus.
 
Microtrains in N scale makes a cast resin load insert of unknown accuracy (to me) for these, for those in the smaller scale.
 
Charlie Tapper
Broken Arrow, OK
 
 


On Friday, January 16, 2015 7:59 AM, "'Todd Horton' toddchorton@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Yes, notice the orientation of the containers in NYC 501660 while it looks like they’re all positioned the same in the second photo.  Todd Horton
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 8:34 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: container gondolas
 
 

these pop up immediately with Google Images

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-501660.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-501216.jpg
http://img.xooimage.com/files21/d/5/f/lcl3-b77a99.jpg

Tim O

At 1/16/2015 06:59 AM Friday, you wrote:
>Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
>they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
>US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
>253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
>he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
>7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
>1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
>%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
>iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
>333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
>_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
>3



Re: container gondolas

Todd Horton
 

Yes, notice the orientation of the containers in NYC 501660 while it looks like they’re all positioned the same in the second photo.  Todd Horton

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 8:34 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: container gondolas

 

 


these pop up immediately with Google Images

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-501660.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-501216.jpg
http://img.xooimage.com/files21/d/5/f/lcl3-b77a99.jpg

Tim O

At 1/16/2015 06:59 AM Friday, you wrote:
>Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
>they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
>US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
>253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
>he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
>7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
>1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
>%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
>iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
>333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
>_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
>3


Re: Ye Old X29

Tim O'Connor
 

At 1/16/2015 07:02 AM Friday, you wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:
"3/4" plate steel??? REALLY? What is this, armor plate? That'll stop a torpedo!"

3/4" is kind of thin for a warship. It definitely will not stop a torpedo, as the guys on the BISMARCK will tell you. Here's a comparative diagram showing armor protection for TIRPITZ and KING GEORGE V.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/KGV_Tirpitz_armour_and_underwater_protection.png


Ben Hom


Re: container gondolas

Tim O'Connor
 

At 1/16/2015 06:59 AM Friday, you wrote:
Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton

https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
3


Re: Photos from Prototype Rails 2015

Layout Tour
 

Hi Greg,

            My intent is to do an article for the Anthracite Roads Historical Society’s magazine Flags, Diamonds & Statues on the Evolution of Lehigh Valley Coal Cars 1900-1976.  That is the first clinic which Bruce mentioned.  The best way to answer your questions on modeling is to call  at 757-440-1081.

 

Chuck Davis

Norfolk VA


Springfield 2015

Pierre Oliver
 

Hey all,
It's a week away! The annual Amherst Railway Society Railroad Hobby Show.
Just to let you know that Yarmouth Model Works will be there with a good inventory of all that we sell, weather permitting.
I'm in the same place as last year, Mallary 129 A. Drop by if only to chew the fat.
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: Athearn container gondolas

RICH CHAPIN
 

I have a copy of the L.C.L. Container Corp “Diagrams and Descriptions L.C.L. Containers” dated 1/31/1956 [obtained from Smithsonian while researching LV container ops]

 

It lists these roads with containers: N.Y.C.; B&O; I.C.; M.P.L.; M.I.R.R.; L.V.; D.L.&W.; D&H. Pittsburgh Metallurgical Co. also listed

Types were air activated cement [round ones], drop bottom coke; drop bottom lime; controlled flow bulk; calcium carbide; drop bottom ferro silicon and portable refrigerator.

 

Rich Chapin

 


Re: Ye Old X29

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"3/4" plate steel??? REALLY? What is this, armor plate? That'll stop a torpedo!"

3/4" is kind of thin for a warship. It definitely will not stop a torpedo, as the guys on the BISMARCK will tell you. Here's a comparative diagram showing armor protection for TIRPITZ and KING GEORGE V.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/KGV_Tirpitz_armour_and_underwater_protection.png


Ben Hom


1947 Boxcar Shortage

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

I was working my way through Western Pacific annual reports (dull reading, but I was looking for something specific) when I stumbled on this in the 1947 issue:

"The shortage of box cars during 1947 was of particular disadvantage to Western Pacific which is more adversely affected by such conditions than other California terminal carriers for the reason that a majority of such cars line-hauled westbound from Salt Lake or southbound from Bieber are turned over to other lines, either for delivery at common points or for line-haul to destination. Such cars are not returnable to Western Pacific for its eastbound loadings and because the number of such cars turned over to other carriers by Western Pacific for its eastbound loadings far exceeds the number of such cars received by it from other lines for delivery, it will be apparent that Western Pacific, during periods of car shortage, contributes substantially to the supply of other lines." [That's one VERY wordy sentence!]

We've talked about this issue here before in general, but this is much more specific. Up until 1947, the WP had a fairly small fleet of cars, especially boxcars. This was made worse by having most cars loaded on the WP being interchanged rather than delivered to other points on their own road. Starting in 1947 the WP began an aggressive program to buy boxcars. Many of these went into specific pool service, which tended to prevent capture by other roads.

The WPHS has the complete run of annual reports online at http://www.wplives.com/diagrams/ .The site also has equipment diagrams for nearly all their rolling stock, cabooses, passenger cars and MoW equipment for 1930, 1947, 1958 and 1968. It is a treasure trove of great stuff.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd Horton
 

Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton

https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
3

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers
from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor



At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an
NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb
containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed
as being 7 6 in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller
than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered  The LCL Corporation
Todd Horton


------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd Horton
 

Tim, I would think there has to be some difference in the containers due the
capacity difference, 20,000 lbs. vs 22,000 lbs. The light weight for each
are listed as 4,385 lbs. vs 4,430 lbs. That's only 45 pounds so maybe the
difference was internally, a deeper sloped bottom perhaps? One thing I did
missed upon first glance is that there's also a ACF logo on both the NYC and
D&H canisters. The D&H photo says "Builder of car and containers, ACF"

The other question that comes up is about unloading cement from them. The
D&H car has 4 cut outs down at least one side of the car for this purpose,
the NYC photo is too dark to tell but from looking at photos of other cars
(LV I know for sure) had slots spaced evenly along the sides of the car as
well.. The canisters have one fitting for an unloading hose to attach down
towards the bottom of the canister. If you look at the photo of both of
these cars the canisters in each are turned differently as placed in the
gondola. I'm making an assumption here but I would think that the lettering
would have been orientated the same on all of these when they were painted
new. Using the D&H car as an example and going off the photo you would have
had to unload three of these from one side of the car and two from the
other. The NYC car shows a similar arraignment, 3 canisters are orientated
in one direction and the other three are in the opposite direction.

It would be interesting to compare in service shots of these cars to see
how the canisters were positioned after they had been on the road from a
period of time. I have always thought these were interesting cars and they
would make a good modeling candidate. Todd Horton

.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from
LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor


Re: Ye Old X29

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Arved one of the photos I sent you is a PRR Merchandise Service (not REA express) X29 in Taylor Yard in Los Angeles, incredibly filthy as Tony says, and evidently simply being used as a box car. But that's in the later 1950's, not 1953. LCL was in precipitous decline from 1950 onwards so whole fleets of LCL box cars (NYC, SP, PRR, etc) ended up in general freight service."

This doesn't answer Arved's question and confuses the issue. As you pointed out, this is NOT an express boxcar, and as LCL goes, the Merchandise Service X29s were plain boxcars lacking any special equipment for handling LCL. It's far more likely it was being used as a general service boxcar.

The cars painted in Merchandise Service schemes got incredibly ratty as the years went on, and are definitely a weathering challenge!


Ben Hom


Re: Ye Old X29

Tim O'Connor
 


Arved one of the photos I sent you is a PRR Merchandise Service (not REA express)
X29 in Taylor Yard in Los Angeles, incredibly filthy as Tony says, and evidently
simply being used as a box car. But that's in the later 1950's, not 1953. LCL was
in precipitous decline from 1950 onwards so whole fleets of LCL box cars (NYC, SP,
PRR, etc) ended up in general freight service.

Tim O'Connor



Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfiic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?

       I would say both assumptions are wrong. They went everywhere. I have memories of seeing PRR express box cars at the Postal Annex in Los Angeles when I was a teenager, and they made an impression because they were so INCREDIBLY dirty, far more than other head end cars spotted there. There were not express boxes (SP or otherwise) in every Coast Mail, but certainly in some. I would doubt, though, that the PRR express boxes went up or down the Coast much, because they were usually east-west travels, but there are always exceptions -- just never seen a photo of one on the Coast. I haven't modeled one.

Tony Thompson    


Re: Black cat decals

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott,

I ordered directly from their online catalog. They took care of the exchange rates.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 1/16/15 12:38 AM, repairman87@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US?  I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald




Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tim O'Connor
 

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the lettering?

Tim O'Connor

At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed as being 7� 6� in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered � The LCL Corporation� Todd Horton


Re: Ye Old X29

Tim O'Connor
 


3/4" plate steel??? REALLY? What is this, armor plate? That'll stop a torpedo!

I'm looking at a CBC hopper car drawing that specifies 1/4" plate for the
sides and slope sheets.

Tim O'Connor



Semantically speaking, they don�t have to be any particular thickness.  However, to be prototypic thickness they would need to be around 0.009� for 3/4� plate and 0.006� for 1/2� plate steel.  I have not measured them with a micrometer but they are most likely 0.010�, as they were probably etched from 0.020� so they are pretty close to 3/4� plate.  I have not painted them yet, but they look pretty good to my eye.

Regards

Bruce


Re: Black cat decals

Brad Andonian
 

Scott,

Email me off list. I have been ordering from al.

At Jan 15, 2015, 9:38:28 PM, repairman87@... [STMFC]<'STMFC@...'> wrote:

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US? I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald



Black cat decals

Scott
 

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US?  I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald



Re: Ye Old X29

Tony Thompson
 

Arved Grass wrote:

Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfiic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?


       I would say both assumptions are wrong. They went everywhere. I have memories of seeing PRR express box cars at the Postal Annex in Los Angeles when I was a teenager, and they made an impression because they were so INCREDIBLY dirty, far more than other head end cars spotted there. There were not express boxes (SP or otherwise) in every Coast Mail, but certainly in some. I would doubt, though, that the PRR express boxes went up or down the Coast much, because they were usually east-west travels, but there are always exceptions -- just never seen a photo of one on the Coast. I haven't modeled one.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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