Date   
Re: Post War Stock Cars

mrprksr <mrprksr@...>
 

In the early 60's (I hired PRR in 59) there was a regular spring move of one or
more Stock trains from Texas to the King Ranch in Buck, Pa.....Trains left the
Main at Pomeroy, Pa...East of Parksburg on the branch to Buck.....I remember
these trains as being all T&P and MP cars.....I believe the PRRT&HS had a
special issue on the Pomeroy Branch and the King Stock moves....Larry Mennie




________________________________
From: Bruce F. Smith <@smithbf>
To: "<STMFC@...>" <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wed, May 8, 2013 5:44:27 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Post War Stock Cars


Jack,

I'm not sure what the issue is? We've had the discussion a number of times, and
at least from the PRR perspective, foreign stock cars, including western road
cars, were common on PRR stock trains. Lots of folks have said that it couldn't
be, but the photo evidence is pretty clear. I plan on almost 50% of my stock
car fleet being non-PRR cars, with these distributed between major western roads
and adjoining or connecting eastern roads.
Regards

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On May 8, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jack Wyatt wrote:

I'm a little late to the discussion, but back around 2001 I posted a picture in
the group's files of a Southern Railway train, Birmingham to Atlanta on June 22,
1946 with had four foreign road stock cars on the head end. If I recall Richard
Hendrickson and maybe some of the group members help me ID the cars - two ATSF,
one T&P, and one MKT. Just so I can't count that as a fluke, I had another
picture from the era of a Santa Fe stock car on the head end of a reefer train
from Chattanooga-Atlanta. If anyone is interested in the details of that one,
I'll have to look through some photos to find it.

There was a slaughter house in Atlanta as well as some others in Georgia. While
the livestock could be breeders, I'm more inclined to think that they were
headed for the kill. Maybe the cattle were sourced from the likes of Ft. Worth
or Kansas City auctions. Or would some ranchers try selling in another market
(consigned to a stock yard rather than a meat packer)? I'm wondering if most of
the operations in Atlanta were slaughtering the local Bessie's for hamburger and
tough roasts, while some livestock for better cuts was sourced from the West.

Thoughts anyone? As things stand now, if I were modeling that time and location,
I would have around a half dozen Western stock cars to choose from. They would
not make their appearance every operating session, but now and then, I would
pull out one or two.

Jack Wyatt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Post War Stock Cars

caboose9792@...
 

Ray said it didn't happen until after the 1960's. One of you is wrong. Ray
says"

Hi Mark,

What you're describing didn't really start happening until outside of the
scope of this list, and was done by the packers partly to break unions,
and partly and to get rid of rail shipment rates and reefers in general.
Trucks killed livestock movements, Ike's highways killed reefers, and the
railroads themselves killed customer relations (some time around the 1850s).
Streamlining the supply chain by eliminating the railroads as an intermediary
was a dream of MANY shippers since the invention of the internal combustion
engine.

And the IC ran steam until 1960; their stock car fleet started dropping in
the 1930s, specifically because of RATES: it cost just as much to ship
live animals from Dubuque to New Jersey as it did to ship sausages or hams,
and it was far less of a pain to ship processed meat products that far. The IC
did run one of the larger stock car fleets past WWII to cover feedlot
movements and the dwindling amount of hog rail movements from central and
southern Illinois.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL "

Unless the Elgin watch company somehow ripped a whole in the space time
continuum, there is a big difference between 1880s and the 1960s. Would one
of you clarify who is wrong?

Mark Rickert

In a message dated 5/6/2013 12:19:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
thompson@... writes:

Mark Rickert wrote:
That's why the invented the reefer. The packers could Slaughter the meat
out west and just ship the valuable parts and no 28 hour rule to worry
about. It seemed the IC stock car fleet dropped about as fast if not faster
than the steam locomotive fleet as the loading switched off "on the hoof" to
"on the hook".

Good summary, Mark, except this happened in the 1880s, led by Gustavus
Swift and his colleagues.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

Re: Post War Stock Cars

caboose9792@...
 

Since this group is for ACCURATE information, I present the following
rebuttal. At the risk of ticking off the moderators, I am presenting not as a
flame just a statement of facts unless an opinion based on facts is stated
as such.

Thank You.

In a message dated 5/5/2013 10:38:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
rtbsvrr69@... writes:

Hi Mark,

What you're describing didn't really start happening until outside of the
scope of this list,
It started around the 1920's with the paved roads Dairy products were the
first victims but look at how long the last of the milk tank cars lasted on
the national system. Anyhow reread mypost.

and was done by the packers partly to break unions, and partly and to
get rid of rail shipment rates and reefers in general. Trucks killed
livestock movements, Ike's highways killed reefers, and the railroads themselves
killed customer relations (some time around the 1850s). Streamlining the
supply chain by eliminating the railroads as an intermediary was a dream of
MANY shippers since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

And the IC ran steam until 1960; their stock car fleet started dropping in
the 1930s, specifically because of RATES:

IC stated getting rid of steam in the 1920's and the stock car numbers
as you mentioned didn't drop off until the 1930's. The IC was mostly
diesel by the late 1950's and those familiar with the IC, the last handful of
steam engines were in KY and lasted until spring of 1960. I got the
locomotive dispatch records and oddly not a steam locomotive is listed after 1958
out of most terminals and most roundhouses closed by 1959. So ether the
clerks were "forgetting" to document the steam locomotives or your expurgating
the importance of the diesels in 1960. Furthermore, the IC was still
updating the stock car diagrams as late as 1968 and there was the stock car
renumbering program of 1960. I don't think they would renumber cars they were
about to retire.

I show on:

July 1 1948 ASSINMENT LIST
Steam: 1248
diesel: 80


February 1 1953 ASSINMENT LIST
steam: 919
diesel 219

Checking the IC's official roster distributed to online agents dated
January 1 1960:
listed are:
Steam locomotives: 219
Diesel locomotives: 631
Stock cars: 411

Mach 1 1960 ASSINMENT LIST

Steam locomotives: 97
Diesel locomotives: 609
(only 9 steam in service the remainder stored and note the drop in Diesel
locomotives as the early retirements were starting)


The 1965 equipment register shows 202 stock cars yet No Steam locomotives.
I standby "the IC was more eager to get rid of the Steam locomotive than
the stock car."

it cost just as much to ship live animals from Dubuque to New Jersey as it
did to ship sausages or hams, and it was far less of a pain to ship
processed meat products that far
That's what I said. The reefer helped kill the stock car.

. The IC did run one of the larger stock car fleets past WWII to cover
feedlot movements and the dwindling amount of hog rail movements from central
and southern Illinois.
You just implied in the RATES argument they did kill the bussness , and
now you say they didn't pick a side of the argument or clarify.



Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Mark Rickert
(who regularly passes though Elgin IL)

Re: 4 boards for roof walk

Don Burn
 

I can't remember if it was the CN or the CP but there were 4 board roof
walks on standard gauge cars. There is a picture in Ted Culotta's Essential
Freight Car series in RMC.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
durrecj
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 6:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] 4 boards for roof walk

Does anyone know if any railroad used 4 boards for their wood roof walks?
If so was this used very often?

I am aware of the four board wood roof walks used by the narrow gauge Ohio
River and Western on some of their box cars. See a photo on page 162 and a
plan on page 226 of "Hidden Treasurers" by E. H. Cass.

During the early years some cars had a single board or two boards and of
course the most common three board roof walk.

A reference to photos or plans would be helpful.

Thanks,

Cyril Durrenberger



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Guard Rail Question

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

Pierre,



I have a Hakko soldering station, so I can regulate the tip temperature. Do
you have any suggestions for what temperature setting I should use to get a
good bond without melting ties? I would think with Pliobond, it wouldn't be
necessary to put glue on every tie for either the rail of the plastic
'wooden' outer guardrails. Any comment about that?



Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Pierre
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 5:27 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Guard Rail Question





Nelson,
I've used Pliobond with great success.
With a little care you can use a soldering iron to reheat the adhesive and
get an awesome bond.
Pierre OLiver

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Nelson
Moyer" <ku0a@...> wrote:

While this isn't strictly a freight car question, the subject is supposed
to
keep freight cars on the bridge and out of the water, so I'm risking a
post
to this forum. What adhesive is recommended for attaching the plastic
simulated wooden guard rails and code 70 nickel silver guard rails to
Micro
Engineering bridge ties? I have 62 in. of bridge track in need of guard
rails.



Nelson Moyer




Re: 4 boards for roof walk

midrly
 

Cyril--

Which roads have you in mind? CN had some 1929/31-built 40' steel frame boxcars rebuilt by CC&F post-WWII (about 1949--photo in Ted Culotta Essential Freight Cars RMC article) that had four board running boards and new diagonal panel rooves. Which reminds me that I should finish my model of one of these...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "durrecj" <durrecj@...> wrote:

Does anyone know if any railroad used 4 boards for their wood roof walks? If so was this used very often?

I am aware of the four board wood roof walks used by the narrow gauge Ohio River and Western on some of their box cars. See a photo on page 162 and a plan on page 226 of "Hidden Treasurers" by E. H. Cass.

During the early years some cars had a single board or two boards and of course the most common three board roof walk.

A reference to photos or plans would be helpful.

Thanks,

Cyril Durrenberger

4 boards for roof walk

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Does anyone know if any railroad used 4 boards for their wood roof walks? If so was this used very often?

I am aware of the four board wood roof walks used by the narrow gauge Ohio River and Western on some of their box cars. See a photo on page 162 and a plan on page 226 of "Hidden Treasurers" by E. H. Cass.

During the early years some cars had a single board or two boards and of course the most common three board roof walk.

A reference to photos or plans would be helpful.

Thanks,

Cyril Durrenberger

Re: Guard Rail Question

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Nelson,
I've used Pliobond with great success.
With a little care you can use a soldering iron to reheat the adhesive and get an awesome bond.
Pierre OLiver

--- In STMFC@..., "Nelson Moyer" <ku0a@...> wrote:

While this isn't strictly a freight car question, the subject is supposed to
keep freight cars on the bridge and out of the water, so I'm risking a post
to this forum. What adhesive is recommended for attaching the plastic
simulated wooden guard rails and code 70 nickel silver guard rails to Micro
Engineering bridge ties? I have 62 in. of bridge track in need of guard
rails.



Nelson Moyer



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Post War Stock Cars

Douglas Harding
 

The Swift Slaughter house in Ocala Florida received much of the beef they
slaughtered from Texas. (got that from someone who worked there). So picture
stockcars traveling from Texas to central Florida loaded with Texas cattle.
A good variety of cars no doubt.

As to Kosher meat, while it is true live on the hoof was desired to provide
"fresh" meat, I believe the improvements in transportation and refrigeration
car design brought about a change, allowing for the arrival of fresh meat
from further away. While NJ had at one time major slaughter operations, ie
1900, many Kosher products came out of the midwest slaughter centers by
1950. One only need witness the many special tariffs and instructions for
handling Kosher meat. The UP served a slaughter operation in Utah where 90%
of its lamb & mutton products were Kosher and shipped to the East Coast
Jewish markets. This may have been the Swift plant in Ogden. There are still
slaughter operations in Iowa and other midwest locations that cater to the
Kosher market, which still is primarily on the East Coast.

Kosher meat has specific requirements for regular stops for the Rabbi to
bless the contents so they remain Kosher. Many a railroad handling meat
reefers made arrangements for the blessing to occur at the "usual" location.
If not the railroad scrambled to provide a Rabbi at the location of the
train at the required time.

So yes stockcars and meat reefers roamed the country delivering their
contents where the demand dictated. Made for a variety of freight cars, no
made which road you model.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Post War Stock Cars

Bruce Smith
 

Jack,

I'm not sure what the issue is? We've had the discussion a number of times, and at least from the PRR perspective, foreign stock cars, including western road cars, were common on PRR stock trains. Lots of folks have said that it couldn't be, but the photo evidence is pretty clear. I plan on almost 50% of my stock car fleet being non-PRR cars, with these distributed between major western roads and adjoining or connecting eastern roads.
Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On May 8, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jack Wyatt wrote:

I'm a little late to the discussion, but back around 2001 I posted a picture in
the group's files of a Southern Railway train, Birmingham to Atlanta on June 22,
1946 with had four foreign road stock cars on the head end. If I recall Richard
Hendrickson and maybe some of the group members help me ID the cars - two ATSF,
one T&P, and one MKT. Just so I can't count that as a fluke, I had another
picture from the era of a Santa Fe stock car on the head end of a reefer train
from Chattanooga-Atlanta. If anyone is interested in the details of that one,
I'll have to look through some photos to find it.

There was a slaughter house in Atlanta as well as some others in Georgia. While
the livestock could be breeders, I'm more inclined to think that they were
headed for the kill. Maybe the cattle were sourced from the likes of Ft. Worth
or Kansas City auctions. Or would some ranchers try selling in another market
(consigned to a stock yard rather than a meat packer)? I'm wondering if most of
the operations in Atlanta were slaughtering the local Bessie's for hamburger and
tough roasts, while some livestock for better cuts was sourced from the West.


Thoughts anyone? As things stand now, if I were modeling that time and location,
I would have around a half dozen Western stock cars to choose from. They would
not make their appearance every operating session, but now and then, I would
pull out one or two.

Jack Wyatt

Re: Freight Car Trucks Article Published

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 8, 2013, at 2:09 PM, lnbill <fgexbill@...> wrote:
In addition to Richard's usual thoroughness on the subject I want to offer Kudos to MRH for using the article and the good play they gave the photos.
Yes, thy did a fine job with the photos, some of which were a bit marginal. And MRH was the only publication that could offer that long and extensively illustrated article in a single issue. It would be out of the question for any print publication. They were a pleasure to work with, they pay well (and promptly), and I urge those of you with research or modeling projects that could be turned into articles to contact Joe Fugate. Based on my experience, internet publication is definitely the wave of the future.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: Freight Car Trucks Article Published

Bill Welch
 

In addition to Richard's usual thoroughness on the subject I want to offer Kudos to MRH for using the article and the good play they gave the photos.

Bill Welch

Re: Guard Rail Question

Tim O'Connor
 

Or any brand of contact cement will work.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
T
Nelson Moyer wrote:
While this isn't strictly a freight car question, the subject is supposed to keep freight cars on the bridge and out of the water, so I'm risking a post to this forum. What adhesive is recommended for attaching the plastic simulated wooden guard rails and code 70 nickel silver guard rails to Micro Engineering bridge ties? I have 62 in. of bridge track in need of guard rails.
Canopy glue. Great for dissimilar materials like these. I would NOT recommend CA.

Tony Thompson

Guard Rail Question

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

While this isn't strictly a freight car question, the subject is supposed to
keep freight cars on the bridge and out of the water, so I'm risking a post
to this forum. What adhesive is recommended for attaching the plastic
simulated wooden guard rails and code 70 nickel silver guard rails to Micro
Engineering bridge ties? I have 62 in. of bridge track in need of guard
rails.



Nelson Moyer

Re: Guard Rail Question

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:
While this isn't strictly a freight car question, the subject is supposed to keep freight cars on the bridge and out of the water, so I'm risking a post to this forum. What adhesive is recommended for attaching the plastic simulated wooden guard rails and code 70 nickel silver guard rails to Micro Engineering bridge ties? I have 62 in. of bridge track in need of guard rails.
Canopy glue. Great for dissimilar materials like these. I would NOT recommend CA.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Post War Stock Cars

ronald parisi
 

Dear Jack:

Live slaughtering used to be an absolute necessity for Kosher butchers. New
York received live cattle for slaughter long after most beef came in
frozen. Perhaps other large urban areas had the same needs

Ron Parisi


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

**


I'm a little late to the discussion, but back around 2001 I posted a
picture in
the group's files of a Southern Railway train, Birmingham to Atlanta on
June 22,
1946 with had four foreign road stock cars on the head end. If I recall
Richard
Hendrickson and maybe some of the group members help me ID the cars - two
ATSF,
one T&P, and one MKT. Just so I can't count that as a fluke, I had another
picture from the era of a Santa Fe stock car on the head end of a reefer
train
from Chattanooga-Atlanta. If anyone is interested in the details of that
one,
I'll have to look through some photos to find it.

There was a slaughter house in Atlanta as well as some others in Georgia.
While
the livestock could be breeders, I'm more inclined to think that they were
headed for the kill. Maybe the cattle were sourced from the likes of Ft.
Worth
or Kansas City auctions. Or would some ranchers try selling in another
market
(consigned to a stock yard rather than a meat packer)? I'm wondering if
most of
the operations in Atlanta were slaughtering the local Bessie's for
hamburger and
tough roasts, while some livestock for better cuts was sourced from the
West.

Thoughts anyone? As things stand now, if I were modeling that time and
location,
I would have around a half dozen Western stock cars to choose from. They
would
not make their appearance every operating session, but now and then, I
would
pull out one or two.

Jack Wyatt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
A Canadian Order-In-Council authorising payment to CN from the Federal Government for new equipment dated 14 November, 1946 gives the following costs in CAD for different types of all-steel cars--

Ore car--$4,700
40' Automobile box car--$5,724
Overhead Freight Refrigerator car--$15,120
Covered hopper car--$5,940
40' box car--$5,130

Those eight-hatch reefers were expensive cars. I wonder what comparable US-built reefers cost PFE, MDT, etc?
In 1946, the PFE's new Class R-40-23 cars cost $7650 each (U.S. dollars, of course).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Andy Sperandeo
 

Tim O'Connor asked: "Also didn't UP/LA&SL stock trains for southern California originate in this area [Salt Lake City]? -- I think they could make the SLC-LA run in 28 hours or less."

Tim, you're thinking of the SLC-LA "DLS" trains, for which those S-40-10 stockcars we've recently discussed were equipped with roller bearings in their otherwise standard journal boxes. But I believe the advertised schedule was 36 hours or less, requiring the shippers to sign waivers allowing the animals to remain aboard after 28 had expired.

With yellow diesels (EMDs or Alcos), yellow cars with aluminum roofs, and a yellow caboose, the DLS must have looked like a Streamliner for livestock.

So long,

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Tim O'Connor
 

There was meatpacking in the SLC area. Also didn't UP LA&SL stock trains for
southern California originate in this area? -- I think they could make the SLC-LA run
in 28 hours or less. The same probably would be true of livestock travelling from
SLC (/Ogden) to northern California via the SP.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <@MB8444>

Tom,
I'll admit to having minimal info about the cattle world in 1950 [ or even
now ], but these stock are headed to the SLC/Ogden area. From there...who
knows? IOW, the destination codes are a bit confusing. Some cars are headed
to the SP at Ogden [ to central CA? ], some to LA, some to Ogden and points
north.

Mike Brock

Re: Post War Stock Cars

npin53
 

There is a very nice Harold Valrath picture of an NP stock car in Jackson MS, in 1947.

The car must have just been unloaded, because organic residue and straw are oozing from between the slats.

It would be interesting to know the route that the car took to and from Jackson.

Aaron

--- In STMFC@..., Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I'm a little late to the discussion, but back around 2001 I posted a picture in
the group's files of a Southern Railway train, Birmingham to Atlanta on June 22,
1946 with had four foreign road stock cars on the head end. If I recall Richard
Hendrickson and maybe some of the group members help me ID the cars - two ATSF,
one T&P, and one MKT. Just so I can't count that as a fluke, I had another
picture from the era of a Santa Fe stock car on the head end of a reefer train
from Chattanooga-Atlanta. If anyone is interested in the details of that one,
I'll have to look through some photos to find it.

There was a slaughter house in Atlanta as well as some others in Georgia. While
the livestock could be breeders, I'm more inclined to think that they were
headed for the kill. Maybe the cattle were sourced from the likes of Ft. Worth
or Kansas City auctions.  Or would some ranchers try selling in another market
(consigned to a stock yard rather than a meat packer)? I'm wondering if most of
the operations in Atlanta were slaughtering the local Bessie's for hamburger and
tough roasts, while some livestock for better cuts was sourced from the West.


Thoughts anyone? As things stand now, if I were modeling that time and location,
I would have around a half dozen Western stock cars to choose from. They would
not make their appearance every operating session, but now and then, I would
pull out one or two.

Jack Wyatt