Date   
Re: Post War Stock Cars

C J Wyatt
 

I'm a little late to the discussion, but back around 2001 I posted a picture in
the group's files of a Southern Railway train, Birmingham to Atlanta on June 22,
1946 with had four foreign road stock cars on the head end. If I recall Richard
Hendrickson and maybe some of the group members help me ID the cars - two ATSF,
one T&P, and one MKT. Just so I can't count that as a fluke, I had another
picture from the era of a Santa Fe stock car on the head end of a reefer train
from Chattanooga-Atlanta. If anyone is interested in the details of that one,
I'll have to look through some photos to find it.

There was a slaughter house in Atlanta as well as some others in Georgia. While
the livestock could be breeders, I'm more inclined to think that they were
headed for the kill. Maybe the cattle were sourced from the likes of Ft. Worth
or Kansas City auctions.  Or would some ranchers try selling in another market
(consigned to a stock yard rather than a meat packer)? I'm wondering if most of
the operations in Atlanta were slaughtering the local Bessie's for hamburger and
tough roasts, while some livestock for better cuts was sourced from the West.


Thoughts anyone? As things stand now, if I were modeling that time and location,
I would have around a half dozen Western stock cars to choose from. They would
not make their appearance every operating session, but now and then, I would
pull out one or two.

Jack Wyatt

Re: Car in Urbana Ohio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

All;

You have to love that car! The demands of WW2 were so severe, the PRR, in desperation, converted some of the ratty old X23 class, to cabin cars, by adding an interior, doors for entry, and that marvelous bay window. It still retains many of its as-rebuilt features. The stories I heard was they were SOO bad, crews would do anything to swap out for an N5 (or better). There were actually a few of these hanging around into the sixties, but only in work service.

Check out the jacking point/bolster ends. Righteous!

What a car,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of gwennyth42
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 11:24 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car in Urbana Ohio





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

X23 design? Roll the image 180d for better lighting.
Two photos from 2006
http://gwennyth42.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=18119

Gwen





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Tom Vanwormer
 

Mike,
Thanks, patterns change and by 1950 I remember I had to have my
hamburgers and country fried steaks.
Tom VanWormer

Mike Brock wrote:



Tom,
I'll admit to having minimal info about the cattle world in 1950 [ or
even
now ], but these stock are headed to the SLC/Ogden area. From there...who
knows? IOW, the destination codes are a bit confusing. Some cars are
headed
to the SP at Ogden [ to central CA? ], some to LA, some to Ogden and
points
north.

Mike Brock

looks like a move to the spring and summer feeding grounds.
Thanks Mike,
'
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Mike Brock wrote:



Tom VanWormer writes:

"I would be interested in dates of those moves to see when in the season
they happened."

April 3 through April 21, 1949.

Mike Brock





Re: Car in Urbana Ohio

Gwennyth Patrick
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

X23 design? Roll the image 180d for better lighting.
Two photos from 2006
http://gwennyth42.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=18119

Gwen

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Mikebrock
 

Tom,
I'll admit to having minimal info about the cattle world in 1950 [ or even now ], but these stock are headed to the SLC/Ogden area. From there...who knows? IOW, the destination codes are a bit confusing. Some cars are headed to the SP at Ogden [ to central CA? ], some to LA, some to Ogden and points north.

Mike Brock




looks like a move to the spring and summer feeding grounds.
Thanks Mike,
'
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Mike Brock wrote:



Tom VanWormer writes:

"I would be interested in dates of those moves to see when in the season
they happened."

April 3 through April 21, 1949.

Mike Brock


Re: average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?

ROGER HINMAN <rhinman11@...>
 

NRC 18000 series in 1946 cost $6125 each, NRC 19000 series in 1950 were $8128.46 each

Roger Hinman

ps
Those overhead cars were also expensive to ice
On May 8, 2013, at 10:42 AM, "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:

A Canadian Order-In-Council authorising payment to CN from the Federal Government for new equipment dated 14 November, 1946 gives the following costs in CAD for different types of all-steel cars--

Ore car--$4,700
40' Automobile box car--$5,724
Overhead Freight Refrigerator car--$15,120
Covered hopper car--$5,940
40' box car--$5,130

Those eight-hatch reefers were expensive cars. I wonder what comparable US-built reefers cost PFE, MDT, etc?

Hope that this helps,

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

From the Interstate Commerce Commission decision in May, 1937 found at 221 ICC 392 (1937) here are the costs of a 10 year equipment trust that the Northern Pacific obtained approval for that was for a total of $6,490,000 at 2.75% interest. NP had to pay 20% of the equipment cost as a deposit. The equipment trust went out to bid before NP selected the winner as required by the ICC.

1- 50 ton 42 foot 2 inch all steel gondola: $2,624
2- 70 ton 43 foot 8 inch all steel gondola: $2,805
3- 50 ton 52 foot steel underframe flat car: $2,358
4- 50 ton 40 foot 11/4 inch steel wood sheathed and lined box car: $2,909

The trust also included the acquisition of Z-6 4-6-6-4s at $181,648 each and A-3 4-4-4s at $153,205 each.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock



From: cereshill
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 9:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?


So, some of the posts regarding revenue and loadings made me wonder what railroads paid for rolling stock...
Anyone care to offer some insight?

Thanks,
Brad Andonian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?

midrly
 

A Canadian Order-In-Council authorising payment to CN from the Federal Government for new equipment dated 14 November, 1946 gives the following costs in CAD for different types of all-steel cars--

Ore car--$4,700
40' Automobile box car--$5,724
Overhead Freight Refrigerator car--$15,120
Covered hopper car--$5,940
40' box car--$5,130

Those eight-hatch reefers were expensive cars. I wonder what comparable US-built reefers cost PFE, MDT, etc?

Hope that this helps,

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

From the Interstate Commerce Commission decision in May, 1937 found at 221 ICC 392 (1937) here are the costs of a 10 year equipment trust that the Northern Pacific obtained approval for that was for a total of $6,490,000 at 2.75% interest. NP had to pay 20% of the equipment cost as a deposit. The equipment trust went out to bid before NP selected the winner as required by the ICC.

1- 50 ton 42 foot 2 inch all steel gondola: $2,624
2- 70 ton 43 foot 8 inch all steel gondola: $2,805
3- 50 ton 52 foot steel underframe flat car: $2,358
4- 50 ton 40 foot 11/4 inch steel wood sheathed and lined box car: $2,909

The trust also included the acquisition of Z-6 4-6-6-4s at $181,648 each and A-3 4-4-4s at $153,205 each.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock



From: cereshill
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 9:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?


So, some of the posts regarding revenue and loadings made me wonder what railroads paid for rolling stock...
Anyone care to offer some insight?

Thanks,
Brad Andonian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fw: [bbfcl] Moloco PS-3 hoppers

Benjamin Hom
 

Forwarded from bbfcl - these were introduced before the 1960 list cut-off date.


Ben Hom 

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Nick <kangaroose@...>
To: bbfcl@...
Sent: Wed, May 8, 2013 9:21:27 AM
Subject: [bbfcl] moloco PS-3 hoppers
 
http://www.molocotrains.com/store/newsletterFiles/PS3hopper.jpg

Moloco has announced a PS-3 3-bay hopper 2750cf. I have also placed a new poll
on the website so you can vote which roadname you like.

http://www.molocotrains.com/store/

Regards,

Nick Molo
moloco

Re: average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?

gary laakso
 

From the Interstate Commerce Commission decision in May, 1937 found at 221 ICC 392 (1937) here are the costs of a 10 year equipment trust that the Northern Pacific obtained approval for that was for a total of $6,490,000 at 2.75% interest. NP had to pay 20% of the equipment cost as a deposit. The equipment trust went out to bid before NP selected the winner as required by the ICC.

1- 50 ton 42 foot 2 inch all steel gondola: $2,624
2- 70 ton 43 foot 8 inch all steel gondola: $2,805
3- 50 ton 52 foot steel underframe flat car: $2,358
4- 50 ton 40 foot 11/4 inch steel wood sheathed and lined box car: $2,909

The trust also included the acquisition of Z-6 4-6-6-4s at $181,648 each and A-3 4-4-4s at $153,205 each.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock



From: cereshill
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 9:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?


So, some of the posts regarding revenue and loadings made me wonder what railroads paid for rolling stock...
Anyone care to offer some insight?

Thanks,
Brad Andonian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Tom Vanwormer
 

looks like a move to the spring and summer feeding grounds.
Thanks Mike,
'
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Mike Brock wrote:



Tom VanWormer writes:

"I would be interested in dates of those moves to see when in the season
they happened."

April 3 through April 21, 1949.

Mike Brock



Re: Roller Lumber Shipment

np328
 

Charles, in your blog on this subject, you list: The ICC defined 'roller lumber traffic' as: "performing intentionally delayed service in the transportation of lumber from the West Coast [or other production site] to market. The delay is accomplished by the holding of cars on sidings at certain points on its trunk lines awaiting diversion orders to move the shipment forward over the railroad's regular service.

On the Northern Pacific, coming east, a shipper could have a car held at Laurel, MT, 14 days and Staples, MN for 15 days for no charge. That was prior to sometime in the 1960's.
We had a presentation at out Butte convention by someone in the Northern Pacific's sales office state that at some time in the sixties (and after the scope of this list), truckers petioned the ICC that the hold constituted a service, and there for, a charge must be levied. He said that after that, there went the roller lumber traffic. Back to pre 1960 before I hear the keys rattling.

Charles, thanks for your blog postings, very informative.

Jim Dick , St. Paul

--- In STMFC@..., "Charles Hostetler" <cesicjh@...> wrote:

Good Evening,

There's been some discussion on the group about roller lumber shipments. Andy Laurent and I have posted a waybill discussion of a roller shipment from Birmingham, Ala. to Mountainview N.H. (via St. Louis!) in a Southern 1937 AAR box car. The shipment was made in 1950. Those interested can view the post at:

http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-prototype-waybill-16.html

Regards,

Charles Hostetler

Re: Freight Car Trucks Article Published

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Although I do not consider myself to be one of the "knowledgeable" folks out
here I too REALLY enjoyed and appreciated your definitive work on trucks.
To say it was impressive would be an understatement.



THANK YOU!



Allen Cain

Re: Car in Urbana Ohio

Greg Martin
 

Yes Dave it is an NX 23 a little park next to the beautifully restored
ex-PRR station (now a restaurant or cafe).

While at the PRRT&HS Convention in Columbus my brother Ed and I decided to
make the trip over so he could photograph the car as he was (an still is)
scratch building one in O Scale. All I can say thank Heavens for newly
released 8 gig cards (at the time) and digital cameras... I took a few shots of
the car and lots of the station as I was just captivated by the
architecture. I would say some three hours later my brother had complete photographing
the car in detail. He got his share of my knowledge when he'd say, "what's
that" and I would say a constant contact side bearing... I would venture
to guess that he has nearly every inch of the underframe documented ~ both
sides. Me well if you wants to see the rafter tails, brick details, and
corbels on the station I have those details as well. I was very impressed with
the area, to the east was a creek (across the street from he station) with
a track paralleling it and further east behind you as you are looking at
the station was an interesting wedged shaped building that was obviously
rail served at one time. All I can say is what a wonderful little Central
Ohio town, no wonder R. D. Acton Sr. was drawn to it in his photography.

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 5/7/2013 8:55:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Lake_Muskoka@... writes:




In google maps, enter 40.109088,-83.759504 in the locator window, click on
the magnifying glass and zoom down towards the green arrow. Is that car a
X23 design? Roll the image 180d for better lighting.

Dave Nelson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Car in Urbana Ohio

Dave Nelson
 

In google maps, enter 40.109088,-83.759504 in the locator window, click on
the magnifying glass and zoom down towards the green arrow. Is that car a
X23 design? Roll the image 180d for better lighting.



Dave Nelson

A Roller Lumber Shipment

Charles Hostetler <cesicjh@...>
 

Good Evening,

There's been some discussion on the group about roller lumber shipments. Andy Laurent and I have posted a waybill discussion of a roller shipment from Birmingham, Ala. to Mountainview N.H. (via St. Louis!) in a Southern 1937 AAR box car. The shipment was made in 1950. Those interested can view the post at:

http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-prototype-waybill-16.html

Regards,

Charles Hostetler

Re: Stock Car Shipments in 1953

Charles Hostetler <cesicjh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Charles thanks for posting the post-war stock car shipments. Interesting
that Illinois is the leader for carloads, both originator as well as
termination. Termination I can see, due to the large slaughter operations
still in existence in Chicago in 1953. But the origination as me wondering.
As almost all railroads coming into Chicago from the "west" had feed and
rest stations in the western suburbs, which included facilities to handle
livestock for extended time to "fatten" them up after their lengthy trip, I
am wondering if some of these loadings were simple animals that had arrived
a week earlier from western states. If the animals were off loaded longer
than the required 5 hrs (8hrs if confined for 36 hrs), ie while a shipper
waited for higher prices, when reloaded were they counted as a new load?
Hi Doug,

One of the points the ICC statisticians were at pains to emphasize was that the "results must be interpreted in the light of existing waybill practices." The 1% sample was drawn from terminated waybills, and if the same stuff was subsequently moved on another waybill it had a chance of showing up twice in the sample. They cite the example of a rail-water-rail shipment (for example, iron ore to the ore dock in Minnesota, lake vessel to the ore dock in Erie, rail shipment to the mill in Pittsburgh) where the results from the waybill survey would tend to be at odds with the freight commodity statistics which would treat this as a single commodity movement.

So that being said, if the stock car shipment stopped somewhere for a rest period, and the animals were unloaded and watered and rested, and then reloaded and proceeded to the destination under the SAME waybill, then this movement would be treated by the survey as a single shipment with a 1 in 100 chance of being drawn for the sample.

If the stock car shipment stopped somewhere, and the animals were rested and watered and fed, and then proceeded on their way under a NEW waybill, then the single commodity flow would be treated in the survey as two separate shipments, with each waybill having a 1 in 100 chance of being drawn for the sample.


As a side note, I really learned a lot from this discussion and appreciated all of the input from a variety of viewpoints. My original concept of a stock car shipment was that it typically originated at a lonely small stock pen out west, perhaps underneath a lodgepole pine, and terminated in some big stock yard perhaps in Omaha. So I thought we might be able to understand stock car movements as the result of many small shippers to one of a few large consignees.

It now seems to me that stock car movements are the cumulative result of a large number of traffic lanes each with its own individual behaviors; the movement of cattle, calves, goats, sheep, swine; and breeding stock, feeders, finishers, cutters/canners etc. are all likely to have their own characteristics in terms of direction and timing of shipments. And there's a beauty in the way these individual threads (single stock car movements) weave into a complicated pattern (the flows of cars across Sherman Pass or from state to state).

Trying to understand stock car movement by figuring out what direction and how far your layout setting is relative to a large union stock yard seems to be about as useful as trying to model tank car traffic by thinking about where your layout setting is relative to a large refinery. Not very likely to get the right answer. It is always good when you can bust a preconception...

Regards,

Charles

Re: Pickle Car Question

erict1361 <erict1361@...>
 

Ed,
Thank you for the information.

Eric Thur

--- In STMFC@..., "Edward" <edb8391@...> wrote:

In the book "Baltimore & Ohio Trackside" by Willis McCaleb, there is a partial photo of a four vat pickle car on pages 46-47, taken in 1957 at Medina Ohio. The H. W. Madison Company plant there processed pickles, sauerkraut and salad dressings. There is also a shot of the pickle vat car being backed into the plant's track on page 49.

The report marks are HWMX 487 and the wooden vats are well weathered.
Difficult to see but the data on the car's side panel appears to show CAPY at 80,000. LD LMT and LT WT (or even gallon capacity) are too hard to read in that rather dark photo.

The January 1948 ORER lists three cars for H. W. Madison, numbered 481-483. They are AAR class TW (tank car equipped with one or more wooden containers) and listed as having a capacity of 9,650 gallons or 100,000 lbs. No other data regarding length,number of compartments or or measurements.

The HWMX 487 seen in the 1957 photos may have been a smaller capacity previously-owned steel framed pickle vat car the H.W. Madison Company
obtained after 1953.

Ed Bommer

--- In STMFC@..., "erict1361" <erict1361@> wrote:

While looking a a few photos of Pickle cars (The type with Four Vat's or wooden tanks under a roof), I noticed that many of them did not have capacity data listed on the Flat car sides or on the Vat's themselves? Reporting marks and car number seem to be either painted on the vat or tank sides or on the car sides.

Were these type of cars not required to display clearly marked Capacity data?

Thanks,

Eric Thur

Re: SP car help

caboose9792@...
 

Meant to refer to Jackson TN (Jackson MO is covered by local TV) I was
pondering that but would the SP or any other road let new cars be loaded in
route to delivery? Also odd is the line was a secondary main and the yard
served some coal branches. All I could think of was the cars were making there
first trip or trips and the IC latched onto the empties. Unscientifically
leafing though the book, only one or two loose SP cars would tun up in the
following months and there only about 10 cars to the blocks in question.

I guess this summer's project will to be to plug the data into a
spreadsheet.

Mark Rickert

In a message dated 5/7/2013 8:50:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
thompson@... writes:

These are call composite gondolas of a single class, SP Class G-50-20. The
presence of several sequential numbers makes me think they are new cars
headed to the buying railroad, and the year is right for these cars, which
were built by Pressed Steel Car.

Re: SP car help

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mark Rickert wrote:
I have a station check list of cars for summer of 1948. The location is Blackford KY on the IC. What is shown is mostly locally loaded hoppers and gons in the small yard. What is unidentified is several blocks of SP cars as class "C". I suspect coal gons but what is SP 576xx & 577xx class cars in 1948, I don't have a registry that old.

sample cars 6/9/48
SP 57713
57714
57755
57756
57757

sample cars 6/4/48
SP 57700
57701
57698
57677
57678

Both blocks showed up only once on one day and a few other single cars were sprinkled in headed to "Jackson M" (I assume MO)
These are call composite gondolas of a single class, SP Class G-50-20. The presence of several sequential numbers makes me think they are new cars headed to the buying railroad, and the year is right for these cars, which were built by Pressed Steel Car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

SP car help

caboose9792@...
 

I have a station check list of cars for summer of 1948. The location is
Blackford KY on the IC. What is shown is mostly locally loaded hoppers and
gons in the small yard. What is unidentified is several blocks of SP cars as
class "C". I suspect coal gons but what is SP 576xx & 577xx class cars in
1948, I don't have a registry that old.

sample cars 6/9/48
SP 57713
57714
57755
57756
57757

sample cars 6/4/48
SP 57700
57701
57698
57677
57678

Both blocks showed up only once on one day and a few other single cars were
sprinkled in headed to "Jackson M" (I assume MO)

Mark Rickert