Date   
average cost of Box Cars in the late steam/early diesel period?

Brad Andonian
 

So, some of the posts regarding revenue and loadings made me wonder what railroads paid for rolling stock...
Anyone care to offer some insight?

Thanks,
Brad Andonian

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Mikebrock
 

Tom VanWormer writes:

"I would be interested in dates of those moves to see when in the season
they happened."

April 3 through April 21, 1949.

Mike Brock

Re: Pickle Car Question

David Sieber
 

Eric, I have a few photos of Heinz pickle cars that are stenciled with CAPY data. Cars 73 and 115 are the later type with slide-out rectangular vats. I do not own the rights to these photos, so I'm sending them direct.HTH, Dave Sieber, Reno NV To: STMFC@...
From: erict1361@...
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 17:02:27 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Pickle Car Question























While looking a a few photos of Pickle cars (The type with Four Vat's or wooden tanks under a roof), I noticed that many of them did not have capacity data listed on the Flat car sides or on the Vat's themselves? Reporting marks and car number seem to be either painted on the vat or tank sides or on the car sides.



Were these type of cars not required to display clearly marked Capacity data?



Thanks,


Eric Thur

Re: Freight Car Trucks Article Published

Richard Hendrickson
 

Michael, thanks for your kind words. As I especially value praise from the knowledgeable, your approval means a lot to me.

Richard

Re: Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Tom Vanwormer
 

Mike,
Not so unusual that livestock would be sent from Denver to other
locations in the US. Colorado was a major location for bringing in
livestock from other locations in the spring and then fattening the
livestock for usually two seasons before moving them on to the final
slaughter location. That pattern started for Colorado in the early
1880s and continued for as long as cattle were moved long distances for
final slaughter.

I would be interested in dates of those moves to see when in the season
they happened.
Thanks
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Mike Brock wrote:



I found two more entries of stock cars in the 1949 Fraley frt conductor
book.

1. Train 4-3 Eastbound with 2 cars with sheep, one with a bull. The sheep
are in UP cars, the bull in a PRR car. The '53 ORER indicates the PRR
car is
a gon. Perhaps Pennsy was growing tired of bulls smashing up their stock
cars.

2. Train 4-15 westbound with 7 UP cars carrying hogs, 1 unknown car [
SLSF ?
number does not match ].

This revision changes the totals to 107 UP, 10 non UP.

Mark Amfahr indicates that analysis of a 1951 UP frt conductor book shows
only 30% of stock cars on this route to be UP.

It is curious that most of the stock originated in Denver.

Mike Brock


Revision to the 1949 Fraley on UP stock cars.

Mikebrock
 

I found two more entries of stock cars in the 1949 Fraley frt conductor book.

1. Train 4-3 Eastbound with 2 cars with sheep, one with a bull. The sheep are in UP cars, the bull in a PRR car. The '53 ORER indicates the PRR car is a gon. Perhaps Pennsy was growing tired of bulls smashing up their stock cars.

2. Train 4-15 westbound with 7 UP cars carrying hogs, 1 unknown car [ SLSF ? number does not match ].

This revision changes the totals to 107 UP, 10 non UP.

Mark Amfahr indicates that analysis of a 1951 UP frt conductor book shows only 30% of stock cars on this route to be UP.

It is curious that most of the stock originated in Denver.

Mike Brock

Pickle Car Question

erict1361 <erict1361@...>
 

While looking a a few photos of Pickle cars (The type with Four Vat's or wooden tanks under a roof), I noticed that many of them did not have capacity data listed on the Flat car sides or on the Vat's themselves? Reporting marks and car number seem to be either painted on the vat or tank sides or on the car sides.

Were these type of cars not required to display clearly marked Capacity data?

Thanks,

Eric Thur

Re: Rock Island rebuilds

Clark Propst
 

Thanks Ben! Case closed !!

Re: Rock Island rebuilds

Benjamin Hom
 

Clark Propst asked:
"I friend traded for an Atlas RTR rebuilt box car decorated for RI. It's numbered in the 155ooo series. He contacted a me and another guy
because he could [not] find any info in the ORER he has on these
cars.

Can anyone confirm or deny either of these scenarios?

I remembered an old Mainline Modeler article by Martin Lofton on rebuilt box cars. He said that the RI 134ooo series cars were leased from the CMO and in turn leased to the FtDDM&S."

RI 13400-134799 were rebuilt from RI 155000-157499 USRA DS boxcars at
Armourdale Shops (KC) and Blue Island in 1936 and 1940. Car details
are 10 ft IH, 5/B/5/5 Murphy ends, 8 panel Sides, Murphy rectangular
panel roof, 6 ft Youngstown door. Some cars leased to FtDDM&S in
1960.

"The other guy has a 43 CBC. There's a photo of a 155ooo series
double sheathed car and a photo of a 134ooo series car on the same
page in a section devoted to box car rebuilding. From that, it's
assumed the 134ooos were rebuilt from 155ooos."

Correct.

To complete the story, Rock Island acquired another group of USRA
rebuilt boxcars: RI 38000-series, 500 ex-CNW rebuilt USRA boxcars
sold to US Railway leasing and leased to Rock Island in 1955.
Details are 10 ft 1 in IH, 5/B/5/5 Murphy ends, 8 panel sides, Viking
roof, 6 ft Youngstown door.

The Atlas model does a poor job of modeling either group of cars -
the model is too low in height and the ends are incorrect.


Ben Hom

Rock Island rebuilds

Clark Propst
 

I friend traded for an Atlas RTR rebuilt box car decorated for RI. It’s numbered in the 155ooo series. He contacted a me and another guy because he could find any info in the ORER he has on these cars.
I remembered an old Mainline Modeler article by Martin Lofton on rebuilt box cars. He said that the RO 134ooo series cars were leased from the CMO and in turn leased to the FtDDM&S
The other guy has a 43 CBC. There’s a photo of a 155ooo series double sheathed car and a photo of a 134ooo series car on the same page in a section devoted to box car rebuilding. From that, it’s assumed the 134ooos were rebuilt from 155ooos.

Can anyone confirm or deny either of these scenarios?

Thanks !!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

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Re: Freight Car Trucks Article Published

atsfnut <michaelEGross@...>
 

Dear Richard,
Thanks so much for this well-written, comprehensive, and beautifully
illustrated article.
Kudos and cheers!
Michael GrossLa Canada, CA
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Some STMFC members have seen the clinic I've presented at Naperville,
Cocoa Beach, and other meetings covering prototype freight car trucks
from 1900 to about 1960. An expanded version of that clinic has now
been published in the May issue of the on-line magazine Model Railroad
Hobbyist, which came out this morning. It is extensively illustrated
and will, I think, answer most of the questions modelers are likely to
have about plain journal trucks. It also includes the web address for a
companion article on HO scale freight car trucks, which I will update
from time to time as new trucks come on the market. Take a look at the
latest issue of MRH and, if you have questions or comments, let me know.

Richard Hendrickson




Re: Post War Stock Cars

Greg Martin
 

Guy,

I suspect that there was a real difference in the amount of miles per haul
in trucks versa rail because I just can't imagine (and I could be wrong)
given there was approximately three trucks to the car, by these numbers...
there would have been 1,922,904 truck hauls in 1940 versa 640'968 rail
hauls. !Any numbers out there on the amount of livestock trucks registered
nationwide in 1940?

Am I the only one that sees this as a staggering number of truck hauls of
livestock in short and long haul trucks movements in 1936? I have seen no
photo evidence of "fleets" or "conveys" of livestock trucks moving on the
Lincoln Highway headed to Omaha, NE or Chicago, IL, so I suspect that trucks
"owned" the short haul business (250 miles or less) and the rail shippers
owned the rest of the world.

We sometimes forget that both truck and rail business was heavily
regulated in these eras, in an attempt to keep each mode in check. Even 1'624'848
trucks in 1949 seems a bit large if it were not the short hauls from Farmer
John's barn in Aurora, IL to the "cuttin' house" in Chicago, IL five time
in a one week to thin the herd. I can see the railroads walking away from
the short haul unless there was dumb farmer willing to pay the huge tariff
the railroads had to charge. The asset management alone was complicated and
costly. Think hook and haul ~ point A to point B without triangulation.

Greg Martin Thinking of all those UP S 40-10's yet to be built for Cocoa
Beach... 3^)

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 5/5/2013 11:15:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
@timboconnor writes:

Here are ARA (1928) and AAR statistics for carloads of livestock
originated for a few select years: 1,375,485 in 1928, 740,685 in 1936, 640,968 in
1940 and 541,606 for 1949. These would seem to parallel the percentages lost
to trucking. WWII traffic did escalate on the railroads notably in 1943
when the drought forced Western ranchers to sell off herds. Even the war years
were dominated by trucking. The post war years were a continuation of the
downward spiral.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Re: Stock car hours

Guy Wilber
 

Steve Sandifer wrote:

"ATSF stockyard foreman's record, note it asks for time when loading began and when it was ended and if it was interrupted. Same for reloading."

Steve,

Standard ARA & AAR livestock claim form. Note the form questions don't request time when loading began, rather they request when unloading commenced and when reloading began and ended. The actual time reloading ended is the beginning of the period of time for confinement. Questions 2 and 3 (as per note at bottom of form) were used to determine the length of the resting time and had nothing to do with the period of time the livestock was confined within the car.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


















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Re: Stock Car Shipments in 1953 Illinois

Allen Rueter
 

Doug,
  Don't give Chicago all the credit, The St. Louis meat packing operations were mostly in East St. Louis, IL

 
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


________________________________
From: Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock Car Shipments in 1953



 
Charles thanks for posting the post-war stock car shipments. Interesting
that Illinois is the leader for carloads, both originator as well as
termination. Termination I can see, due to the large slaughter operations
still in existence in Chicago in 1953. But the origination as me wondering.
As almost all railroads coming into Chicago from the "west" had feed and
rest stations in the western suburbs, which included facilities to handle
livestock for extended time to "fatten" them up after their lengthy trip, I
am wondering if some of these loadings were simple animals that had arrived
a week earlier from western states. If the animals were off loaded longer
than the required 5 hrs (8hrs if confined for 36 hrs), ie while a shipper
waited for higher prices, when reloaded were they counted as a new load?

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Stock car hours

James SANDIFER
 

I too stand corrected.


For all who care, some sample forms are available

ATSF Feeder Livestock Certificate
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/7.pdf

ATSF contract form, late
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/67LiveStockContractB.pdf

ATSF contract form, early
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/67LiveStockContract.pdf

ATSF switch list used as feeding station record
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/818-A-used%20for%20livestock.pdf

ATSF stockyard foreman's record, note it asks for time when loading began and when it was ended and if it was interrupted. Same for reloading.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/822-A%20Stock%20Record.pdf

ATSF engineers report of stock struck
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/1152.pdf

ATSF Livestock freight waybill
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/1846-LivestockWaybill.pdf

ATSF brochure, Livestock now that it's in our care
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Forms/1846-LivestockWaybill.pdf

AAR Pamphlet 19 on loading livestock
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Paper/AARStock.pdf

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Stock car hours



Guy Wilber wrote:

> The text of the 1906 28 Hour Act clearly states; "In estimating such confinement, the time consumed in loading and unloading shall not be considered..."
>
> US. vs. Southern Pacific Company, 157 Fed. 459, 1907; "The time of confinement of a shipment of stock is to be reckoned from the completion of the loading at any given point to the commencement of the unloading of the stock at the next point along the route; and there are as many violations of the law as the periods of confinement between loading and the next unloading are in excess of the statutory time prescribed for such confinement between the point of original departure and the final destination of the shipment, even though they relate to the same stock or the same train.

Thanks for the correction, Guy. I think I had the erroneous idea that it was the first animal, from listening to some apparently authoritative clinic on stock shipping, sometime in the dim past . . . but it's good to get it right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Train Miniature

Scott Pitzer
 

I'm just glad this thread has the brand name without the "s" that Bob Schleicher always added-- "You might be able to kitbash this car starting with a Train Miniatures wood-side, wood-end reefer...."
It was almost as annoying as a dash in a Pennsy freight car class!
Scott Pitzer

Re: Stock Car Shipments in 1953

Ray Breyer
 

Dennis, I suspect you are correct. I had forgotten about "feeders." What you
describe is accurate. Lot of calves coming from the western grass lands to
small rural areas, local farmers bought a car load or two to feed out, ie
what they call value added product in today's business world.
Doug Harding

Hi guys,


Feeders should account for some of the animals, but not all.

Here's the US Census Bureau's 1955 statistical analysis:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7pNGAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Head to page 693 (page 714 of the PDF), which has the state by state tally of livestock. Illinois comes in at #7 for total number of cattle, at just over 3.9 million head (2.9 million for 1950). Granted, we don't know when these numbers were generated, nor when, if or how cattle were moving in 1955, but these numbers may well point to at least some domestic livestock generation. Not all cows were born & raised in Texas and Kansas after all!

Regards,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Re: Stock car hours

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Guy Wilber wrote:

The text of the 1906 28 Hour Act clearly states; "In estimating such confinement, the time consumed in loading and unloading shall not be considered..."

US. vs. Southern Pacific Company, 157 Fed. 459, 1907; "The time of confinement of a shipment of stock is to be reckoned from the completion of the loading at any given point to the commencement of the unloading of the stock at the next point along the route; and there are as many violations of the law as the periods of confinement between loading and the next unloading are in excess of the statutory time prescribed for such confinement between the point of original departure and the final destination of the shipment, even though they relate to the same stock or the same train.
Thanks for the correction, Guy. I think I had the erroneous idea that it was the first animal, from listening to some apparently authoritative clinic on stock shipping, sometime in the dim past . . . but it's good to get it right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

UP's Daylight Livestock Train...was Re: Post War Stock Cars

sctry
 

In reaearching the UP S-40-10 stock cars for the ProtoRails 2009 Shake-N-Take I acquired a color photo of OSL #48216 a double deck car converted to DLS service in 1947. In this color print the journal box covers are indeed painted "Armour Yellow" as are the sides.

The car appears to be fresh from the paint shop. Perhaps this car was a sample car to illustrate the paint scheme in as much as the ends/roof are painte black rather than the later aluminum paint end/roof!

John Greedy

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Dave Evans writes:

"What is curious is that the wheel bearing covers look like the older plain bearing caps - and they look to be painted a very light color - maybe even white - perhaps to indicate they should not be serviced like a plain bearing."

It is noteworthy and perhaps fortunate that the UP stock cars with roller bearings used the same bearing caps as non roller bearing equipped trucks. The article by Metcalfe notes that there were no outside visible changes to conventional plain bearing trucks, with Timken providing the roller bearings and the RR fitting them into the existing trucks. It also notes that the journal box lid was painted yellow to signify roller bearings. There is a photo [ B/W ] which clearly shows the much lighter color on the lids. I'll do some additional checks with color photos to see if there is some indication as to how long the lids were painted yellow.

Mike Brock




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Re: Stock car hours

Guy Wilber
 

Tony Thompson wrote:







Chuck Peck wrote:
While the topic of stock cars is active, when did the 28 hours on-car period start and end? I can imagine it taking several hours to load a train . . .
"Each car had its own loading time, which had to be shown on the waybill. The clock started when the first animals entered the car. And BTW, the 28-hour rule could be waived by the shipper to a 36-hour interval. If the shipper chose this, it too was shown on the waybill."


The text of the 1906 28 Hour Act clearly states; "In estimating such confinement, the time consumed in loading and unloading shall not be considered..."

US. vs. Southern Pacific Company, 157 Fed. 459, 1907; "The time of confinement of a shipment of stock is to be reckoned from the completion of the loading at any given point to the commencement of the unloading of the stock at the next point along the route; and there are as many violations of the law as the periods of confinement between loading and the next unloading are in excess of the statutory time prescribed for such confinement between the point of original departure and the final destination of the shipment, even though they relate to the same stock or the same train.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada













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