Date   
Re: Gibson Wine Company Tank Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Gene Deimling wrote:

The Gibson car you cited in your email was built by Standard Tank Car Company.  It was a single compartment insulated 8,000 gallon car.  Southern Car & Foundry produced HO kits STC cars but not with this tank.  
You also mentioned Roma Wines. I have never seen a GATX car lettered for Roma in the postwar era.   

          Gene, I can send you such a photo from RIchard Hendrickson's collection.

Tony Thompson



Re: Gibson Wine Company Tank Cars

Gene Deimling
 

The Gibson car you cited in your email was built by Standard Tank Car Company.  It was a single compartment insulated 8,000 gallon car.  Southern Car & Foundry produced HO kits STC cars but not with this tank.  
You also mentioned Roma Wines. I have never seen a GATX car lettered for Roma in the postwar era.   

Gene Deimling 
--
Gene Deimling
El Dorado Hills, CA

Re: Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

Tim O'Connor
 


What was the date of the infamous KANSAS CITY FLOOD in the 1950's?? I recall that immediately
following the floods there was an ICC car service directive regarding stock cars that lasted for
a number of months during which eastern stock cars were seen all over the midwest. The aftermath
of the flood was covered in a major article in Trains magazine.

Denver also experienced massive flooding of the Platte river in the 1950's. Such events can cause
long lasting disruption to freight car service patterns. (A more recent catastrophe being the UP's
"meltdown" in the 1990's that spread like a virus from Texas to the entire US.)

Tim O'Connor



On 2/7/2020 8:31 AM, David North wrote:

Correction-

A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific  or Union Pacific tracks.

I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.

He models 1954.

Cheers

Dave



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Tim O'Connor
 

Dick

Darn it, you finally figured it out! I've been doing it for years. You'd be
amazed what I've been able to squeeze out of the "fact hoarders". ;-)

On 2/6/2020 4:16 PM, Dick Harley via Groups.Io wrote:
Tim,

Care to give me a page number in Terry's book?  I can't find your data in it.

I did notice that even the diagram in Terry's book (p. 145) for the S-40-12 class lists both AY and FCR side Color Schemes for the different series.

I'm beginning to think this is another trick by Tim to get Dick to do the research.  :-)
Just put out some bogus facts about UP or PFE, and Dick will jump in to correct it, since he hates bogus facts (from any source).


Cheers,
Dick Harley
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

Douglas Harding
 

I have evidence of a PRR stockcar, either a K7 or K7A, being on the MSTL in Iowa. PRR 135263 was loaded with cattle at So St Paul, and shipped to Dallas Center IA on the MSTL, arriving on 8-8-1945. While this is not the SP or UP, it does show that PRR stockcars got west of the Mississippi.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Greg Martin via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2020 8:04 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

 

David,

 

Certainly, if you understand stock car movements. Stock cars were generally used to transport livestock to market and that is well understood; however, stock movements were also used to move livestock from feeding/grazing lands/ areas in order to fatten the stock for market, as in the case of cattle.

 

Railroads were always behind the curve with stock cars, thus the reason for the leasing of cars from companies like Mather.

 

So to see a brace of PRR cars on the UP or SP isn't likely but the occasional would certainly be acceptable in your modeling.

 

Greg Martin

 

 

 

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

 

 

 

Sent from AOL Desktop

In a message dated 2/7/2020 5:32:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, david.north@... writes:

 

Correction-

A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific  or Union Pacific tracks.

I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.

He models 1954.

Cheers

Dave

 


--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Re: Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

Dennis Storzek
 

The other possibility, pointed out by that photo of loading brick into a stockcar, is a non-livestock backhaul load. While brick typically didn't move far enough to get a PRR car on the SP, cut stone architectural l details could, as could terra cotta, both of which are weather resistant enough to travel in a stockcar. Remember, the car service rules allow a car to be loaded BEYOND its home district, provided the owner road participates in the move, so it is possible, if not likely.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

Greg Martin
 

David,

Certainly, if you understand stock car movements. Stock cars were generally used to transport livestock to market and that is well understood; however, stock movements were also used to move livestock from feeding/grazing lands/ areas in order to fatten the stock for market, as in the case of cattle.

Railroads were always behind the curve with stock cars, thus the reason for the leasing of cars from companies like Mather.

So to see a brace of PRR cars on the UP or SP isn't likely but the occasional would certainly be acceptable in your modeling.

Greg Martin



Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean



Sent from AOL Desktop

In a message dated 2/7/2020 5:32:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, david.north@... writes:

Correction-

A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific  or Union Pacific tracks.

I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.

He models 1954.

Cheers

Dave



--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Re: Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

Never say never… UP and SP stock cars made their way onto PRR rails with some frequency. That is likely due to a shortage of cars at points like Chicago since through shipment of livestock did not happen due to rest requirements. It seems much less likely to happen going west off of PRR rails, with one big exception and that would be shipments of smaller numbers of specialized stock and horses. So could it happen? I’d say yes. Was it frequent? Probably not.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 7, 2020, at 7:31 AM, David North <david.north@...> wrote:

Correction-
A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific  or Union Pacific tracks.
I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.
He models 1954.
Cheers
Dave
 

Correction PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific or Union Pacific tracks?

David North
 

Correction-

A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific  or Union Pacific tracks.

I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.

He models 1954.

Cheers

Dave

 

PRR Stock cars on Southern Pacific tracks?

David North
 

A friend has asked if PRR stock cars would have been seen on Southern Pacific tracks.

I would have thought no, but thought I’d check with you guys first, before replying to him.

He models 1954.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Union Tank Car Co. UTLX 17441 a “squat”

al_brown03
 

I've seen a two-compartment tank with a half-length dome platform on each end (one on each side).

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Re: Union Tank Car Co. UTLX 17441 a “squat”

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Don, it's era dependent. The ARA safety appliance drawing dated 1917, presented in the 1922 CBC, only shows one dome platform. I've always just assumed at some point the requirement was increased to one on each side, but never bothered to track down the date.

     I don't know whether the two walks were ever REQUIRED. Ed Kaminski told me that nearly every detail of the TANK (not the underframe) was a buyer choice, though of course they had to choose among permitted features. Certainly before WW II, you can find plenty of photos of tanks with either one or two walks. 

Tony Thompson



Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Tony Thompson
 

Rob Mondichak wrote:

I did a search but could find nothing conclusive - is there a specific time period or car series for the UP change from FCR to yellow for stock cars? 

     The UP first painted stock cars yellow (with aluminum roof and ends) in early 1947, when they inaugurated a fast livestock service between Salt Lake and Los Angeles. The paint scheme was ONLY for the cars in that service,which had been equipped with roller-bearing trucks. All other stock car remained BCR. Gradually more and more of the BCR cars received aluminum roofs. 
       AFAIK this pattern of paint assignment remained through the 1950s. Others on this list can doubtless stay more.

Tony Thompson



Re: Union Tank Car Co. UTLX 17441 a "squat"

Steve and Barb Hile
 

There is a section in the UTLX book on dome platforms and ladders that Dave and I discussed a lot before completing it.  It appears that, prior to 1930, UTLX tank cars provided just a single dome platform on the side of the tank that would be on the left, as viewed from the B end of the car (that is, the same side as the KC brake cylinder and reservoir.)
 
Beginning with the cars built in 1930 and continuing with cars built from then on, UTLX designs called for a ladder and dome platform on both sides of the tank.  The style of ladder changed about the same time.  As Tony says, for more details, see the book.
 
This gives me a chance to comment on Lester's build of UTLX 17441.  He is a craftsman and did a beautiful job in completing the kit.  Unfortunately, the instructions provided apparently do not make clear that the end platforms changed with these cars that were built in 1936 and 37.  Two thousand 6500 gallon and 800 eight thousand gallon X-3 tank cars were built on a common underframe.  This resulted in the "squat" appearance of the 8000 gallon cars, numbered 17000 - 17799.  These cars did NOT have the full board platform on the car ends stretching from the end sill to the bolster.  Rather, there were two boards for an end sill running board and the normal side sill running board for the length of the car, leaving an opening down to the trucks between the end running boards and the bolster.  There are several surviving examples of these cars, including at Mid Continent and IRM and there are drawings and photos in the book and some photos that I posted years ago on the old Steam Era Freight Cars website.
 
So, if you still have one of these older Sunshine kits for a "Squat" 8000 gallon car consult some photos or the book to complete the underframe.  Maybe we can convince Frank to redo these cars under the RCW banner.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Union Tank Car Co. UTLX 17441 a “squat”

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 08:47 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
Don, it's era dependent. The ARA safety appliance drawing dated 1917, presented in the 1922 CBC, only shows one dome platform. I've always just assumed at some point the requirement was increased to one on each side, but never bothered to track down the date.
Having looked through a lot of ICC regs from 1927 through 1955,  I have yet to find any indication that the second platform was required during the period covered by this group.  So, that's an assumption that I would not make absent additional evidence. 

As to why some cars were fitted with the second platform, while others were not, I cannot find any rhyme or reason to it.  But there certainly were a great many cars with just one, something not reflected on any RTR models that I have seen.  With kits, it's an easy fix of course.
 --
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Photo: BAR Reefer

charles slater
 

It is 8264.
Charlie Slater

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2020 7:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: BAR Reefer
 

Photo: BAR Reefer

Can anyone make out the car number on this reefer:

https://www.mainememory.net/artifact/15240

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Dick Harley
 

Tim,

Care to give me a page number in Terry's book?  I can't find your data in it.

I did notice that even the diagram in Terry's book (p. 145) for the S-40-12 class lists both AY and FCR side Color Schemes for the different series.

I'm beginning to think this is another trick by Tim to get Dick to do the research.  :-)
Just put out some bogus facts about UP or PFE, and Dick will jump in to correct it, since he hates bogus facts (from any source).


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA

Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Rob M.
 

Thank you gents.   We're O scalers so some of us don't get out as much as we should. 

I'll mention this all to the gentleman who asked the original question and he will most likely have to apply the findings to the available O scale models.  Right off the top we do have Yoder S-40-6 which is nicely done in FCR.

He indicated he had joined this group but was waiting approval. I told him to make sure he got he right STMFC. 

Rob Mondichak

Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Tim O'Connor
 


Same source - Terry Metcalfe's UP freight cars book. 1st edition, published 1989.
The comments in the book seem anecdotal and not all classes are covered so I take
it with a grain of salt. I almost -always- try to find a photo before painting in
any case...



On 2/6/2020 1:54 PM, Dick Harley via Groups.Io wrote:
Tim,

Where did you get the data about, "All of the S-40-12 cars were delivered in yellow." ?

Or, "In 1958, the decision was made to paint NON-roller bearing stock cars freight car red so
only 'high speed' cars with roller bearings would be yellow." ?

The non-roller bearing S-40-12s were UP #46800 - 46999.  Photos of that series are apparently scarce, but I have a photo of #46863D (Bob's Photo FUP20-A, San Diego, 4-'57) that is in FCR with a reweigh date of 10-55.
My spreadsheet also says those car sides were FCR, which agrees with UP drawing 303-C-10600, rev.A dated 6-12-50 (available at Colorado RR Museum).

The non-roller bearing S-40-13 class built in 1951-'52 also had FCR sides (Metcalfe book).

After a quick look, I can't find any NON-roller bearing UP stock cars painted with Armour Yellow sides.


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Union Pacific Stock Car colors - FCR to Yellow?

Dick Harley
 

Tim,

Where did you get the data about, "All of the S-40-12 cars were delivered in yellow." ?

Or, "In 1958, the decision was made to paint NON-roller bearing stock cars freight car red so
only 'high speed' cars with roller bearings would be yellow." ?

The non-roller bearing S-40-12s were UP #46800 - 46999.  Photos of that series are apparently scarce, but I have a photo of #46863D (Bob's Photo FUP20-A, San Diego, 4-'57) that is in FCR with a reweigh date of 10-55.
My spreadsheet also says those car sides were FCR, which agrees with UP drawing 303-C-10600, rev.A dated 6-12-50 (available at Colorado RR Museum).

The non-roller bearing S-40-13 class built in 1951-'52 also had FCR sides (Metcalfe book).

After a quick look, I can't find any NON-roller bearing UP stock cars painted with Armour Yellow sides.


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Gibson Wine Company Tank Cars

G.J. Irwin
 

Hi Gang,

The Gibson Wine Company of California leased a number of tank cars, at least single and four-compartment versions, from General American.  Given its colorful paint scheme featuring a depiction of a pheasant, the single dome version has been offered several times in at least N, HO and O Scales including most recently this month by Micro-Trains as part of its "Grape to Glass" series.  Protocraft has decals for the exact car, GATX 66719, and I've found a photo of the prototype online.  MTL says this car was built by AC&F but it does not appear in either of Ed Kaminski's AC&F book that I own.

I am trying to narrow down an Approximate Time Period for these cars from my UMTRR.  Only the build date is on the Micro-Trains model and I don't see any other dates on any of the other models either.  (The car in the prototype photo is far too dirty to read much of anything.) 

I've read in Tony Thompson's blog posts about wine cars that they operated in the 1950s and 1960s, examples being Roma Wine and Chateau-Martin.  Tangent has done a Roma Wine car with a "1940+" date.  Would anyone out there have anything on Gibson Wine?

The company is still in business, by the way, and their home page includes a photo of two of their tank cars: www.gibsonwinecompany.com .

Thanks and Cheers (pun not intended),
George Irwin