Date   

Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Tim O'Connor
 

Yes but air brakes will only hold the cars for a limited period of
time -- that's why there are retainers, to extend that time period.
But ultimately the air bleeds off and the cars will roll away unless
someone sets the hand brakes.

So we do need working HO scale hand brakes. It's been done. Not sure
if it's practical with DCC -- you'd need a stalling servo motor on each
car to turn the brake wheel and hold it in place.

Tim O'

I'm not completely sure what Mark refers to but if it is the fact that cars
have their own brake system, I'll relate the following:

A few years ago while waiting to shoot video of ex N&W J 611 as it proceeded
EB from the Black Mtn area of North Carolina, a NS frt went by EB on the
upgrade [ about 1.2% ]. Soon we
got the word that the frt had broken in two and there would be some delay.
Now, on my layout, the offending cars would come rushing down grade, messing
everything up....including [gasp ] me. Fortunately, in this case, the
offending cars stopped themselves, the train was put back together and it
proceeded to the east. Soon, the J came by, producing perhaps my favorite
video. Oh, it looked to me as though the couplers were Sergents indicating
it was not a #5 / #58 compatibility problem.

Hmmm. I suppose one could power up a frt car truck, put a decoder inside a
box car and simulate a break in two. Probably not.

BTW, I don't recall anyone commenting on free rolling trucks and hump yards.

Mike Brock


Re: Southern RR 148000 Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Not sure Gary, but if you are like me you may need to get to work!  I have many kits to assemble and I know I need to get busy or they will be in my estate sale.
Fenton

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:06 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Gee, Fenton, does that mean I need to get my Sunshine kits assembled?  Okay, may just put them in the line “to be assembled”. 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Southern RR 148000 Boxcars
 
 

Jeff, two things, first I believe there will be a resin version of this car in the near future and second I may be able to find the underbody dwg.  Let me look and I can send it to you off list.
 
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:49 PM, jppellas@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Beginning a kit bashing project for a Southern DS, double wood door 148000 series boxcar detailed for the early 1940s. Sunshine had a kit for these some time ago. I have been unable to find info or pix of the underside of these cars. can anyone help with this? Thanks!  -- Jeff



 
--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Mikebrock
 

mark rickert writes:

"So when can we expect to see dcc brakes to offset the free rolling trucks?"

I'm not completely sure what Mark refers to but if it is the fact that cars have their own brake system, I'll relate the following:

A few years ago while waiting to shoot video of ex N&W J 611 as it proceeded EB from the Black Mtn area of North Carolina, a NS frt went by EB on the upgrade [ about 1.2% ]. Soon we
got the word that the frt had broken in two and there would be some delay.
Now, on my layout, the offending cars would come rushing down grade, messing
everything up....including [gasp ] me. Fortunately, in this case, the
offending cars stopped themselves, the train was put back together and it
proceeded to the east. Soon, the J came by, producing perhaps my favorite
video. Oh, it looked to me as though the couplers were Sergents indicating it was not a #5 / #58 compatibility problem.

Hmmm. I suppose one could power up a frt car truck, put a decoder inside a box car and simulate a break in two. Probably not.

BTW, I don't recall anyone commenting on free rolling trucks and hump yards.

Mike Brock


Re: Southern RR 148000 Boxcars

gary laakso
 

Gee, Fenton, does that mean I need to get my Sunshine kits assembled?  Okay, may just put them in the line “to be assembled”. 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Southern RR 148000 Boxcars
 
 

Jeff, two things, first I believe there will be a resin version of this car in the near future and second I may be able to find the underbody dwg.  Let me look and I can send it to you off list.
 
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:49 PM, jppellas@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Beginning a kit bashing project for a Southern DS, double wood door 148000 series boxcar detailed for the early 1940s. Sunshine had a kit for these some time ago. I have been unable to find info or pix of the underside of these cars. can anyone help with this? Thanks!  -- Jeff



 
--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Tim O'Connor
 

Arved

Yeah the Kadee mount is incompatible with many brands of freight car,
and can be annoying to install. But out of the box the Kadee is better
than the Kato, IMO. I bought a bunch of Reboxx 0.950 wheelsets as
replacements for the awful Kato wheelsets and these perform well --
But I think Kato + Reboxx costs more than Kadee. Tangent also makes
some very good trucks now, but I'm pretty sure the Kadee and Kato are
the only choices for a 50 ton ASF A-3.

Tim O'Connor

So the Kadee #1562 ASF Ride Control Truck (http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page1562.htm) would be a better choice than the Kato?

I bought my first pair, but I was very close to buying the Kato trucks. I'm trying to make heads or tails about how the truck should be mounted. Looks like shaving the bolster pin and just screwing the truck in with it's centering device, but I still have to see how the bolster height is effected. Unfortunately, there's no documentation included with the trucks, but I was pleasantly surprised to find solid springs, It still twists for equilization. If anyone thinks I'm mounting them wrong, please let me know.

The Accurail underframe this first pair of trucks will be mated to is currently in the mini-mill to have it's coupler pocket milled off. A Sergent Narrow Shank coupler with Accu-mate scale draft gear box will be fitted. It's going to be a few days at least before I find out for myself how trucks work out.

To the best of my knowledge, Tahoe Model Works doesn't offer 50T ASF Ride Control Trucks. Otherwise, I'd have bought a pair from them.

------------------------
Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida


Re: Southern RR 148000 Boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Jeff, two things, first I believe there will be a resin version of this car in the near future and second I may be able to find the underbody dwg.  Let me look and I can send it to you off list.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 12:49 PM, jppellas@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Beginning a kit bashing project for a Southern DS, double wood door 148000 series boxcar detailed for the early 1940s. Sunshine had a kit for these some time ago. I have been unable to find info or pix of the underside of these cars. can anyone help with this? Thanks!  -- Jeff 




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Southern RR 148000 Boxcars

jppellas@...
 

Beginning a kit bashing project for a Southern DS, double wood door 148000 series boxcar detailed for the early 1940s. Sunshine had a kit for these some time ago. I have been unable to find info or pix of the underside of these cars. can anyone help with this? Thanks!  -- Jeff 


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

arved_grass
 

So the Kadee #1562 ASF Ride Control Truck (http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page1562.htm) would be a better choice than the Kato?

I bought my first pair, but I was very close to buying the Kato trucks. I'm trying to make heads or tails about how the truck should be mounted. Looks like shaving the bolster pin and just screwing the truck in with it's centering device, but I still have to see how the bolster height is effected. Unfortunately, there's no documentation included with the trucks, but I was pleasantly surprised to find solid springs, It still twists for equilization. If anyone thinks I'm mounting them wrong, please let me know.

The Accurail underframe this first pair of trucks will be mated to is currently in the mini-mill to have it's coupler pocket milled off. A Sergent Narrow Shank coupler with Accu-mate scale draft gear box will be fitted. It's going to be a few days at least before I find out for myself how trucks work out.

To the best of my knowledge, Tahoe Model Works doesn't offer 50T ASF Ride Control Trucks. Otherwise, I'd have bought a pair from them.

------------------------
Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 9/9/14, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2014, 2:38 PM
Not to make fun of Reboxx (or my friend JP) but this is a
useless
appliance IMO.


For example, a Kato ASF A-3 truck will roll fabulously in
this device.
Then you

put a car on those trucks, and the results are not so good
in my
experience. They

(Reboxx) published a spreadsheet of results which does have
some value
for comparisons

with different trucks and axle lengths.


Tim O'Connor


Re: Monon 9000-9449 boxcars

paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

hi Rob 
            Thank you that's very helpful. Its a Monon society intermountain kit and does have on the box 9000-9149 series. I am an SP modeler so know very little about the Monon.
Regards Paul 




Sent from Samsung mobile

"Rob Adams steamera@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Hi Paul;

As you likely know, Monon series 9000-9449 were 10' 0" IH cars built to the 1937 AAR design by Pullman Standard in two lots.  The first 150 cars, delivered in October, 1941  were built as Lot 5667B, and assigned road numbers 9000-9149. In April, 1942, an additional 300 cars of the same design were delivered as Lot 5707, and assigned road numbers 9150-9449. As delivered, both groups had 7 panel Superior doors, W-corner posts with round corners, 7 rung ladders on the sides and ends, Ajax power hand brakes and wood running boards.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA



On 9/10/14, 5:19 AM, paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Monon  9000-9449 boxcars does any know what type of doors these cars had when new?

Thank you Paul Doggett England



Re: Monon 9000-9449 boxcars

Rob Adams
 

Hi Paul;

As you likely know, Monon series 9000-9449 were 10' 0" IH cars built to the 1937 AAR design by Pullman Standard in two lots.  The first 150 cars, delivered in October, 1941  were built as Lot 5667B, and assigned road numbers 9000-9149. In April, 1942, an additional 300 cars of the same design were delivered as Lot 5707, and assigned road numbers 9150-9449. As delivered, both groups had 7 panel Superior doors, W-corner posts with round corners, 7 rung ladders on the sides and ends, Ajax power hand brakes and wood running boards.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA



On 9/10/14, 5:19 AM, paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Monon  9000-9449 boxcars does any know what type of doors these cars had when new?

Thank you Paul Doggett England



Monon 9000-9449 boxcars

paul.doggett2472@...
 

Monon  9000-9449 boxcars does any know what type of doors these cars had when new?

Thank you Paul Doggett England


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

caboose9792@aol.com <caboose9792@...>
 

So when can we expect to see dcc brakes to offset the free rolling trucks?

mark rickert

Sent with Verizon Mobile Email

---Original Message---
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/9/2014 2:54 pm
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Denny’s efforts to objectively measure and optimize rollability are well-documented. I will say that the RESULT of such tuning is visible on his layout. It includes some grades, and many trains are pulled by steam locomotives. Many of us have steamers that do not pull as well as we may desire; the free-rolling trucks make it possible to pull a train of a “handsome” length up the grade on his model railroad. I have not encountered any issues with his cars when doing yard switching; industrial switching areas are still under construction.Regards,-JeffFrom: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 5:28 PMTo: STMFC@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheelsBruce,We strive to standardize car weight and couplers yet with the variety of wheel sets available do we attempt to standardize?.My motive power is rated for tonnage,but if I want to have realistic sized trains there should be a degree of uniformity in rolling performance.Admittedly level track is desirable-Armand Premo-- Original Message -----From: 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@auburn.edu [STMFC]<mailto:smithbf@auburn.edu%20[STMFC]>To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 8:07 PMSubject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheelsArmand,First, have a home brew. Second, don't worry! Seriously though, I can understand getting close, although again, I wouldn't worry about them all being the same. And a note... there is an argument that maximal roll might not be desirable for several reasons. If for example, I want to HAVE to use helpers and my locos are too powerful, a little rolling resistance might be desirable. Likewise if my yards/sidings are not perfectly level.I select wheel sets that spin freely in the truck, but the ends do not wobbly. I sometimes ream the bearing holes to improve this and rarely, add graphite to the bearing. It usually takes me about 2 minutes per car to get it where I want it, rolling wise.RegardsBruce SmithAuburn, AL________________________________From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com> [STMFC@yahoogroups.com]Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 6:50 PMTo: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheelsWhich brings up another issue.......................rolling quality.I would like to hear what members of this list do in the attempt to standardize the rolling quality of their freight car fleet .Armand PremoNo virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 4015/8178 - Release Date: 09/08/14


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

Mikebrock
 

Nelson Moyer writes:

"Maximum grade on the mainline is 2.38%.
Minimum radius on the mainline is 48 inches.
Minimum on branch lines is 36 inches.
Frogs are mostly No. 9 on the mainline and minimum No. 7 elsewhere (turnouts are hand laid in place).
Rail is Code 83 on the mainline, mostly Code 70 in yards and on spurs and branch lines."

Excellent. 2.38% is certainly prototypical and while I prefer #10-12 frogs [ I run 4-12-2's ] the #9's are good as well. I also use 48" min radius and 36" on a hidden staging track. I use code 83 for mainline and 70 for frt yard tracks. I have to laugh. When I built my Laramie frt yd I wanted the ties sunk down into the ground so I hand laid the wood ties and the sanded them down to about half thickness. After hand laying the rails I discovered low profile ties.

Anyhow, the reason I asked about your club's grades/curve sizes was to point out that such sizes that you have help immensely with the need for weighted cars. I have no trouble at all running frt cars with very light weights because the broad curves don't encourage stringlining of frt trains. Of course, tomorrow...

Mike Brock


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Mikebrock
 

Doug Harding writes:

"Say it's not so! An icon of the south is to be moved, perhaps even removed
forever, from its sacred resting place. I guess those photos I took years
ago will become treasured memories, artifacts of a past visit, as I may
never again be able to duplicate the experience of seeing the O&W hopper, of
capturing the moment forever on the sensor of my camera. Where are the
historians? Where are the protestors?"

Well, in fact, there was a protestor at Harriman yesterday afternoon. It seems that a bum has been living in the car for several years. He had burrowed into the coal pile and actually had a rather nice apartment in the car[ compared to others at Harriman, of course ]. His heating bill was $0 per year...he would simply burn part of his apartment when it got cold [ like 40 below ]. In fact, three federal officials dropped by to see if his technique could be used in Wash DC. Anyhow, he claimed that the UP and O&W were trying to tear down his home and sued both RRs. Alas, no one could determine where the O&W is so the claim was thrown out. Rumors are that the Central Vermont was also listed [ I mean...why not? ] but no one knew where Vermont was either.

"Should we call out the National Guard to protect this hallowed icon?"

Well, the guard had been called out for some time trying to find UP frt conductor Fraley who apparently had painted the original O&W car black with N&W lettering. Sans wheels of course. I mean, everyone knows that no N&W hopper made it to Sherman Hill.

"I say we all descend upon this small hamlet in the near
future to let our feelings be known. How's January sound for everyone?"

Sounds like a plan. Rumor also indicates that Fraley was frozen solid back in '49, was thawed out in Cheyenne in April and is helping out with the Big Boy 4014 restoration. We plan to have him hand out the free cookies [ if you are lucky enough to get one...hint: stay near me at cookie time ] at Prototype Rails.

Mike Brock...very happy to have a key to Moderate Jail


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

Steve SANDIFER
 

Living in Houston, we build our homes on shifting clay. Any house built here that is 40 years old probably needs foundation leveling. Many a layout has been built level, yet with good wheelsets in cars and shifting houses, many layouts must use weeds or some sort of brake to keep the cars from rolling off. I have heard folks longing for the old days with poor rolling cars that tended to stay put.



__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2014 10:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Wheel Rolling Needs





Nelson Moyer writes:

"The club to which I belong has standards for wheels, trucks, detection,
couplers, weight,, rollability, and center of gravity."

Just out of curiousity, what is the minimum radius on curves, minimum frog
size, and maximum grade on your club? 2.5% is a rather significant grade
with very few RR grades exceeding that. Off the top, Saluda's short 3 mile
stretch with a max of 5.1%, mostly 4.7% is the greatest but rather obscure.
The 2.2% of the B&O was, I believe, considered to be a "yardstick" for new
rr's being built out west during westword expansion. It is noteworthy that
N&W had a max of 1.4% on their east/west Christiansburg/Roanoke/Blue Ridge
line, UP did not exceed 1.55% on its Wyoming line, and the WP Feather River
line was 1%.

There is, of course Raton and Donner but...

BTW, I should mention that I have a 1.5% grade of about 80 feet [ all
hidden ] which leads into my Laramie yard. Every now and then a coupler will
fail and I hear the sound of many metal wheels in motion heading for Laramie
so, I guess, the wheels roll freely enough. I do have to make sure the
runaway has a place to go in Laramie. Incidentally, there was a runaway on
the real Sherman Hill back during our time period. A 4-8-4 sitting idle up
on the hill, sans crew, decided to roll back down into Cheyenne. Now, you'd
think that there would have been time to alert a switcher working the west
end of Cheyenne, but, alas, there was not. The 4-8-4 was estimated to be
traveling at 80 mph or more when it hit the switcher.

Mike Brock


Soo line decals found a home

Charlie Duckworth
 

The SS Soo Line decals have been spoken for.

Charlie Duckworth


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

ku0a@...
 

Mike,

Sorry for the delay. I didn't have all the numbers, so I had to wait for an email reply from a club member who had the information.

Maximum grade on the mainline is 2.38%.
Minimum radius on the mainline is 48 inches.
Minimum on branch lines is 36 inches.
Frogs are mostly No. 9 on the mainline and minimum No. 7 elsewhere (turnouts are hand laid in place).
Rail is Code 83 on the mainline, mostly Code 70 in yards and on spurs and branch lines.

I hope this answers your questions.

Nelson Moyer


Free Soo Line decal set

Charlie Duckworth
 

I converted the HO Soo Line 1920 SS boxcar to a NOT&M boxcar. If anyone can use the Soo decals contact me offline. Free!

Charlie Duckworth


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
 

This lively subject has a lot of tentacles (or arms and legs); and in the end, there is less science than there is art and judgement in determining ideal roll ability.  

As Jon Miller surmised, I do indeed use a Reboxx Rolltester to test trucks. This is an elevated vertically-curved track segment about 24” long  4” high on each end and about 1” high in the middle.   I simply count the number of times any given truck will roll back and forth -no matter how small the movement- until it stops.  I test each truck  three times, and record the results.. As I test various brands and axle length wheel sets, my own benchmarks (which have served me well) are:

·      Unsatisfactory:            0-5 rolls

·      Poor:                            6-10 rolls

·      Acceptable/Good:       11-15 rolls

·      Very Good:                 16-20 rolls

·      Superior:                     21 and up.

 This is not the only thing that I rely on, however.  

Occasionally, placing a lead weight (from a defunct N gauge diesel) on the truck will alter the rollability, but not often enough to be a routine, nor to be of perceived overall significance..

Sometimes the highest roll ability is only attained by accepting excessive axle end play, an important issue re: wobble, and  -most importantly for me-  creating big time centering/coupling problems with the “scale” couplers common to my rolling stock (Accumates and 150 series Kadees).  In these instances I make note of where the best balance might be. The ideal for me is the highest roll ability and least end play. 

Here are some selected rounded/averaged SAMPLE Rolltester results, wheel set brand and/or axle length or type, and  numbers indicating counted rolls:

Accurail Bettendorf:  OEM  11; Reboxx 1.010 -1.020”  21; NWSL  10; IM 1.012” 20; JayBee 12; Kadee 0.088”  20.

Branchline Barber S-2: OEM 18; Reboxx 1.0

Central Valley Arch Bar: OEM 7; Reboxx 1.025”  10.

Kadee AAR (sprung): OEM 10; Reboxx 1.020” 17.

Kadee Barber S2b (new) : OEM 11; Kadee 0.088” 12; Reboxx 1.020” - 1.025” 12/13

Silver Streak AAR metal: OEM 5; Reboxx 1.045” 12.

Tahoe Dalman two level: OEM N/A; Reboxx 1.005”-1.010”  22/23; IM 1.007” 19; IM 1.012” 21.

Walthers Archbar leaf spring caboose: OEM 6; Reboxx 1.030” 18; 1.035” 12  (the former had excessive end play).

etc. etc. 

Although out of scope for this list, there have been some near-spectacular results with the occasional brass passenger truck, and even  greater results in bringing the venerable still-fine Central Valley three axle passenger trucks back into modern life.

With reference again to the excellent Tahoe trucks, it was Brian Leppart who in a phone call brought to my attention his finding of the unnoted diminished IM axle length, which I subsequently confirmed.

Keep in mind that none of these trucks, nor the wheel sets that we install, are precision instruments or assemblies. If they were, we would not be having this conversation, primarily because not a one of us could afford them.

Denny  


 
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

midrly
 

Trevor Marshall has been testing Sergent couplers for us.  He models in S scale, but his blog mentions a few problems coupling to them because he found that cars on his layout were TOO free rolling.

More Sergent testing

 



Steve Lucas.

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