Date   

Re: Athearn Coors and Carnation

Charles Hladik
 

Garth,
    I think we (Trains Unlimited) epiphed them right out the door.
Chuck Hladik
 

In a message dated 8/5/2014 5:58:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Richard,

I can't tell you if either scheme was real, but the Carnation cars were available well into the blue box era. I had two of them in the 1980s, without the clunky hinged doors of the early 1960s yellow-box days. That was before we had books and other resources for prototype accuracy, and I was as innocent as most of us. They went to a local hobby shop when I had my freight car epiphany.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/14 2:05 PM, richtownsend@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Back in the yellow box days Athearn produced models of reefers decorated for Coors and Carnation.   The Coors reefer is yellow with a logo for Coors Banquet beer and the Carnation reefer is white with the milk can and Carnation Milk in red on the sides. If you search eBay for "Athearn Coors" and "Athearn Carnation" you will see what I mean.  Neither car's P/L scheme is like any prototype car I have ever seen photos of.  The white Carnation P/L scheme bears no resemblance to the yellow schemes that FGEX and General American ran for them and have been available from Branchline and TMI and others, and the yellow Coors scheme looks nothing like the famous white one that TMI and MDC did versions of.  So my question is this: are these Athearn schemes total foobies, or did such cars ever exist, if even for a railroad fair of some kind?
 
Richard Townsend


Re: Athearn Coors and Carnation

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Richard,

I can't tell you if either scheme was real, but the Carnation cars were available well into the blue box era. I had two of them in the 1980s, without the clunky hinged doors of the early 1960s yellow-box days. That was before we had books and other resources for prototype accuracy, and I was as innocent as most of us. They went to a local hobby shop when I had my freight car epiphany.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/14 2:05 PM, richtownsend@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Back in the yellow box days Athearn produced models of reefers decorated for Coors and Carnation.   The Coors reefer is yellow with a logo for Coors Banquet beer and the Carnation reefer is white with the milk can and Carnation Milk in red on the sides. If you search eBay for "Athearn Coors" and "Athearn Carnation" you will see what I mean.  Neither car's P/L scheme is like any prototype car I have ever seen photos of.  The white Carnation P/L scheme bears no resemblance to the yellow schemes that FGEX and General American ran for them and have been available from Branchline and TMI and others, and the yellow Coors scheme looks nothing like the famous white one that TMI and MDC did versions of.  So my question is this: are these Athearn schemes total foobies, or did such cars ever exist, if even for a railroad fair of some kind?
 
Richard Townsend


Re: Custom Decals

hees@...
 

Peter, A couple of friends and I have been trying to print multi color decals for early Baldwin locomotives... I have been trying to email you privatly, but the new improved Yahoo and I are fighting...

Randyhees@...

Thanks...


Re: Custom Decals

sprinthag@...
 

This is all pretty much a moot point as to directly copy Champ's decals would not be a good thing to do. Although I agree that Champs had probably the best there was to be had back in "the day", their stuff is not up to todays standards.

What they have that is good is the content of their products; i.e. all the data and designs that were included on their sets.

I often "copy" old sets of decals for reproduction. What that means is doing a high res scan of the set and then drawing all new, vector artwork using the old sets as a guide. While going about it I generally search out any prototype photos I can find to ensure that the fonts and designs I am drawing are accurate. Champ was were the best researched, in my opinion, sets available but many others were not all the good. Several used printer fonts that were "close enough" but in fact, were not all that close. Also the older printers cannot match the definition of modern printers. I once took a magnifying class to some commercial GB&W diesel decals with the "checker board" frame stripes and those individual little blocks went more directions than there are points on a compass. While not noticable on the typical HO model without close inspection, what if these were enlarged to O scale? What if this was to be a judged contest model where close inspection is the norm?

Besides, when redrawing the sets can be modified to more specifically meet the end users needs.

So we have an old set used as a pattern. it has all new artwork and probably has several changes to up-date and individualize them. So just how much of a copyrights infringement are we talking here? Taking an ols set, scanning it and using that scan to reprint may indeed be an infringement but then, other than say, Microscale, who is going to go through the trouble to sue? And besides, all the infringement cases I've heard of (this is going way beyond just decals) the injured party begins with a strong letter threatening legal action if teh person doing the copying/selling does not desist. So there generally is fair warning if one gets nabbed copying copyrighted material.

John Hagen


Re: Custom Decals

Dave Campbell <drdavecampbell@...>
 

I try to follow along via the digest...  which is a challenge.  But did anyone get an answer to the "what file format is appropriate for the art" question?

Dave Campbell


Re: Custom Decals

Curt Fortenberry
 


You can't copyright history.  My point is that they have their artwork of a real logo, herald, etc.  They don't own the railroad logos, just their version of it. You draw your own and it's not a copyright violation in regards to Champ's stuff.  I'm probably muddying the waters but my point is so what if Champ is defunct.  If you have data anything can be redone.  No I'm not suggesting you just redraw theirs.  We lost quite a few custom printers during the bad years, but several more have come forward.  Even Microscale is growing their line again.

Curt Fortenberry


Re: Custom Decals

 

That¹s news!

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:43 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals







actually the rights for champ's business is held

by portland car & foundry in portland oregon
mel perry

On Aug 5, 2014, at 12:34 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@gmail.com [STMFC] wrote:


Not only that, but Camp is defunct as a business. No one picked up their
line, unlike, say, copying Herald King.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals

Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for
my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.
Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case
you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from
plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

Tim O'

>Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers
or
whomever created the decal being copied.
>
>If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant
you
permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.
>
>Alex Schneider













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Central Vermont wood boxcar color

midrly
 

Marty--

Photos that I've seen of GTW cars make me wonder about their colour choice as well.  That green wafer was used by the GTW as well on its two orders of 40' boxcars in 1948 (?) and 1953.  Yet GTW passenger equipment seems to have used the Maple Leaf logo.  

My default paint for newly shopped CN and CN family road cars is CN Red #11, but time and weathering were never kind to the pigments in STMFC paint.  CN cars were no exception.  An assiduously copyrighted F.D.Shaw 1958 photo of Palmerston, Ontario above my workbench shows eighteen CN cars with eighteen different shades of what started as the CN Red #11 that these cars would have been painted in.  CN submitted small cans of wet paint samples to manufacturers for colour matching. Between weathering and possible differences from manufacturers components' pigments, and colour sensitivity of those matching the paint, modellers thus have a lot of leeway when painting any CN STMFC's.   

CN stencilled the manufacturer's name in approximately one inch lettering centred under the car number in 1950's repaints.  Probably to determine whose paint held up best over time.  Examples here--
Old Time Trains

 

 
 


Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

mel perry wrote:

actually the rights for champ's business is held by portland car & foundry in portland oregon


     Actually, their website ( http://www.greatdecals.com/PortlandCF.pdf ) says they "bought a small stock of Champ decals," which I take to mean some of the surviving stock. That is hardly the "rights." And I notice that quite a few of their sets are listed as "replacing Champion set" 999.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Those damn kits!

ALLEN STANLEY
 

Andre,


Contact me off list and I'll send a file done by Larry Ostresh and Eric Lombard that might prove interesting re your wood/steel question.


Blessings!


Allen Stanley

Railroad Data Exchange

Greer, SC


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ops-Ind] car placement - 1960 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

PRR also covered car movement and/or placement in the individual Employee Time Tables, since so many operations were unique. Example topics included: limitations to certain power classes, cars to be separated by spacers (MTYS) on certain tracks or bridges, movements accompanied by flagmen or lanterns, forbidden "open flames" with certain properties (directed at brakemen), trestle tonnage and car limitations, and the like.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 3:27 PM
To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com; STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Re: [Ops-Ind] car placement - 1960



PRR regulations for the transport Explosives and dangerous articles 1952


This is the oldest book of this type in my collection. I've seen older but were to expensive for my level of interest in the respective time periods.

Anyhow the link to the book directly is:
http://www.palfan.us/galleryphotos/temp%20pages/PRR%20%20transport%20Explosives%20and%20dangerous%20articles.pdf

It is on my server since people hate to use yahoo and I don't want to upload it to multiple groups. I'll leave it up for the rest of the month so if the server gets bogged down the next few days there is still time to look.


Mark Rickert


In a message dated 8/4/2014 5:11:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com writes:

Apparently, throughout the steam era the only car placement rules
were promulgated by the Bureau of Explosives, dating to 1907. In 1921
Congress gave the ICC the power to regulate the MARKING of hazardous
cars, but it is unclear if they also added any rules concerning
placement in the train, beyond the "not adjacent to locomotive,
caboose or occupied passenger cars" already enforced for cars
containing explosives. Tony Thompson has a nice summary of the
placard rules from a modeling perspective in his blog here:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/03/tank-car-placards-prototype.html

But doesn't go into the operations aspect.

Dennis Storzek



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Haycock wrote:

 
But wouldn't it be a violation of copyright law for a decal maker to copy other's work with the intent of selling it?

    Yes.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Custom Decals

clipper841@att.net <clipper841@...>
 

actually the rights for champ's business is held
by portland car & foundry in portland oregon
mel perry

On Aug 5, 2014, at 12:34 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Not only that, but Camp is defunct as a business. No one picked up their
line, unlike, say, copying Herald King.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals

Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for
my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.
Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case
you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from
plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

Tim O'

>Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or
whomever created the decal being copied.
>
>If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you
permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.
>
>Alex Schneider

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Re: Custom Decals

Scott H. Haycock
 

But wouldn't it be a violation of copyright law for a decal maker to copy other's work with the intent of selling it?

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent


 


Alex Schneider wrote:

 
Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or whomever created the decal being copied.
If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

    Copyright law explicitly permits copies for personal use, as when you Xerox a magazine article or book page. It's called "fair use."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

BRIAN EHNI  wrote:

 
Not only that, but Camp is defunct as a business. No one picked up their line, unlike, say, copying Herald King.

     I assume you meant to write "Champ." A number of people inquired about buying the business, but the owner and her brother conceived of an enormous value to the business and would not discuss or negotiate that set price. It would be possible to conclude that they did not really want to sell. AFAIK, the entire stock and materials of the business, less the printing press which they did sell, remains in place. Aside from the press, they were not willing to entertain any offer for any other part of the business, such as artwork, or remaining stocks. Any buyer was required to take everything, including office furniture etc. So if "no one picked up" that business, it was not because no one was interested.
      By the way, a business being "defunct" does not mean that copyrights vanish. Those are among the property of the business, even if it is not being operated currently, and those copyrights would be part of the value if a buyer ever acquires the line.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Custom Decals

 

Not only that, but Camp is defunct as a business. No one picked up their
line, unlike, say, copying Herald King.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Custom Decals








Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for
my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.
Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case
you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from
plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

Tim O'

Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or
whomever created the decal being copied.

If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you
permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

Alex Schneider


Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connorwrote:

 

Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.


      As I said, no one would or could make a case; personal use falls under the "fair use" part of the law.

Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

 
     Not analogous, since making kits for sale hardly falls under fair use. But as you say, the injury caused is likely too small to litigate, except for those who love to demonstrate their rights. Still, if I were to want to copy parts for kits, I would hesitate to assume no one in the hobby falls into that category.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: [Ops-Ind] car placement - 1960

caboose9792@...
 

PRR regulations for the transport Explosives and dangerous articles 1952
 
 
This is the oldest book of this type in my collection. I've seen older but were to expensive for my level of interest in the respective time periods.
 
Anyhow the link to the book directly is:
 
It is on my server since people hate to use yahoo and I don't want to upload it to multiple groups. I'll leave it up for the rest of the month so if the server gets bogged down the next few days there is still time to look.
 
 
Mark Rickert
 
 

In a message dated 8/4/2014 5:11:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Ry-ops-industrialSIG@... writes:
Apparently, throughout the steam era the only car placement rules
were promulgated by the Bureau of Explosives, dating to 1907. In 1921
Congress gave the ICC the power to regulate the MARKING of hazardous
cars, but it is unclear if they also added any rules concerning
placement in the train, beyond the "not adjacent to locomotive,
caboose or occupied passenger cars" already enforced for cars
containing explosives. Tony Thompson has a nice summary of the
placard rules from a modeling perspective in his blog here:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/03/tank-car-placards-prototype.html

But doesn't go into the operations aspect.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Custom Decals

Tony Thompson
 

Alex Schneider wrote:

 
Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or whomever created the decal being copied.
If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

    Copyright law explicitly permits copies for personal use, as when you Xerox a magazine article or book page. It's called "fair use."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Custom Decals

Tim O'Connor
 

Technically true, and equally true, I really don't care. If it's for
my use, and they don't make them anymore, let them try to make a case.
Similar arguments have been made against resin kit makers -- In case
you had not noticed, many resin kit masters include copied parts from
plastic kits. No lawsuits yet, to my knowledge.

Tim O'

Technically, that would be a violation of the copyright of Champ, Walthers or whomever created the decal being copied.

If you can find out who owns the copyright, they might be willing to grant you permission to make a reasonable number for personal use.

Alex Schneider

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