Date   

Larry Kline

Mikebrock
 

I have the sad duty to confirm Andy Carlson's message and to inform the STMFC that Larry Kline passed away today. Larry, of course, was a significant and long time member of the STMFC and was a yearly clinician at Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach.

I have no details yet, I received word from Dick Flock through John Wilkes.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


The 7-58 ORER has a per diem of $2.75 per day for railroad owned cars excluding refrigerator and tank cars which were charged based on mileage instead. A flat fee discouraged the purchase of new cars or any type of car with higher construction cost. If you get as much per diem for an old 40' box car, why buy a new 50' one with cushion underframe and load restraining devices unless you were doing it to attract a particular on-line customer? Eventually, per diem rates were restructured the take the car's value into consideration. IPD rates followed shortly afterwards.
 
Eric N.
 
But this only works if the per diem rate closely matches the actual cost of owning a car... if it's less, it's to your advantage to own few cars and use someone elses. By the same token, the owner of a lot of cars is getting less than adequate return on his investment, since he's getting neither the use of the cars, or recovering their cost when used by others. This seemed to be a perpetual sore point, since the per diem rates were set arbitrarily, and couldn't be re-negotiated to account for the newness of the car, the scarcity of cars, or even inflation in the price of cars. I believe the incentive per diem program that was instituted well after the end of the steam era was finally an admission that this was so, and did indeed correct the car supply problem.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

From what I found researching my Berwick book, car hire by the late 1970s would have been unrecognizable to anyone familiar with the per diem system used before 1960. Most of the major rules are in the back of the ORER for anyone interested, just be aware they change significantly and continuously after 1960. A study of IPD rates shows that Tony's conjecture that the rates had become too high by the end of the 1970s almost certainly correct. The boom and bust was entriely forseeable, especially when you consider that covered hoppers were taking more and more of the grain shipping market relative to box cars from the mid 1960s to early 1980s while people were investing madly in box cars. IPD was cancelled in 1980 leaving lots of investors with non-performing assets. The banks ended up with the assets as the investors walked away from loans secured by the box cars. At one point, the cars were going for about 25 cents on a dollar, so the banks didn't do well either.
 
Eric N.
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

 

But this only works if the per diem rate closely matches the actual cost of owning a car... if it's less, it's to your advantage to own few cars and use someone elses. By the same token, the owner of a lot of cars is getting less than adequate return on his investment, since he's getting neither the use of the cars, or recovering their cost when used by others.

       Sure -- but remember you are SUPPOSED to be loading foreign cars. And any quick calculation shows you that the freight revenue from a loaded car well exceeds the per diem, so per diem is not the whole story in car usage. That's why the Car Service Rules emphasized loading a car so it would traverse its owner's rails en route (if possible).

This seemed to be a perpetual sore point, since the per diem rates were set arbitrarily, and couldn't be re-negotiated to account for the newness of the car, the scarcity of cars, or even inflation in the price of cars. I believe the incentive per diem program that was instituted well after the end of the steam era was finally an admission that this was so, and did indeed correct the car supply problem.

         This is true, and I can recall editorials in Railway Age in the 1940s and 1950s about the per diem rate. But remember also that IPD did not last long, because an oversupply of box cars was quickly created, followed by lots of idle cars, suggesting that just MAYBE the rate was too high -- not, of course, a topic for this list.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Answers and observations to: Re: Was Interesting loads now Car movement home

np328
 


Below are the answers to the quiz I had posted earlier.


One comment these last few days that caught my attention was the observation by Tony Thompson that – the Special Service Orders served to get cars home, loaded.


To all of you who have written me off line thanks however I have as many questions as you do and would invite any professional railroaders to jump in. Sadly they are declining in numbers.


Also, to all of you who sent me questions off line, I’d invite you to repost here. I am no expert, I am learning and I’m sure others would welcome the answers that might be forth coming.


The name of the article that caught my eye in Railway Age and lead to this was:


So many Empty Car Miles


    Why do I feel this information was important enough to transcribe parts of the article that follow? Because of the many facets in trying to understand why decisions were made in car handling, both empty and loaded. More information is indeed…more.


   I can across an article, a contest really, that helped further explain the intricacies of car movements.  


     The article lists the cost (in 1954) of hauling empties at $ .06 per mile. In 2013 that six cents is now equal to $0.52 per mile. From the cities of New York to Chicago, Google Maps lists the distance as 790 miles. This distance by rail will no doubt vary however the 790 miles is close enough to get the point across that at $.52 per mile moving an empty car from New York to Chicago costs $410.80 From St. Louis, MO to Medford, Oregon by again, Google Maps gives us 2056 miles. That cost at $.52 is $1069.12 for one car.


      On the Northern Pacific, from St. Paul, MN to Chehalis or Longview Washington, the distance (by rail here) was a little more or a little less than 2000 miles, and $1040 to haul an empty XM, flat, or gon for a load in the western US. Medford and the Longview, Chehalis areas are central to lumber origination and as I had prepared a presentation on the “J” Manifest, NP’s designation for their daily lumber hauling train from the west, these numbers were readily available. 


          From perusing Northern Pacific Rwy files, I am aware that in the 1950’s time frame, up to 17 trains per week of basically empties, came west on the NP. That is more than 2 trains per day. I would tend to believe this also happened on other western railroads as many of the solid trains of empties headed west coming from east of the Mississippi supplying the NP with empties was also to be rationed between several different railroad in both the Pacific Northwest and railroads of the Southwest, in addition to granger roads in the Chicago and Kansas City areas.


  Now on any railroad, if you are moving an 80 car train of empties - as an approximation….and doing this on a regular basis….that is a real cost concern. And it does not matter if this is east of the Mississippi or west of the Mississippi, money is money.   


     Plugging in these numbers, one can see why once the cars were east, eastern railroads tended to keep them, rather than incur the expense of sending them off empty. The larger the railroad, the larger the costs incurred. And if you are not showing a standard of earnings that you once did, not moving cars until you are told to do so would seem rather prudent.  


     In talking with some people who follow primarily eastern US railroads, why there is hesitation to acknowledge that “their” railroad held onto empty cars to the degree of creating shortages elsewhere. I would hope the what follows provides some explanation into why this happened.


     To use the Pennsylvania as an example, I do have the copy of a letter from the president of the Pennsy to the then president of the NP in this early 1950’s timeframe that states his railroad delivered to the St. Louis gateways, 5000 more empty cars than loads it received via that gateway. This represents an expense in 2013 dollars of $2600 if these were moved only one mile. If these move from Philadelphia, PA to St. Louis, MO, (983 Google highway miles) then that represents $294,900 (1954) or $2,555,800 in the year 2013, in cash. (5000 cars x 983 miles x $.06 per mile in 1954 or 5000 cars x 983 miles x $.52 per mile in 2013) which is an amount that a shareholder which you as an officer are responsible to - could call you out on.    


Excerpts (and answer to the quiz) as follows are from the original article “Why So Many Empty Car Miles?” published in the Jan, 4, 1954 Railway Age.


     It is apparent that many of the railroad men who are consistently conscious of the importance of car service rules are not equally alert to the desirability of selecting cars, when there is a choice, to avoid empty car mileage whenever possible. Many persons who sent in… the answers observed car service rules in selecting equipment for loading but built up empty hauls as high as 2,500 – 3,500 miles in doing so. At todays rate of $.06 per mile, that’s $150 to $210 – nothing to be sneezed at. (Those 1954 numbers in 2013 are $1298.95 and $1818.53)


    To our surprise, many of the respondents did not catch that if the cars were used utilized properly there would be no empty mileage is disposing of the cars after they were again released as empties, or in disposing of those not used, at St. Louis.


     Certainly one of the problems of a Yardmaster is to keep his yard fluid, which means that cars must be kept moving. They cannot be held until he has a chance to use them, particularly in a big terminal where the empties available usually exceed the demand for loading.   


     It was important that our hypothetical B&O Yardmaster in this problem dispose of the eight surplus cars promptly. With the following, he protected all 12 loads and in accordance with the car service rules, disposed of all eight surplus cars, all without empty mileage    


    Many respondents (to the original Railway Age Quiz) came close. Sending the Rock Island instead of the M&StL car to St. Paul leaves the M&StL car to be disposed of empty from St. Louis.  Dispatching the CNJ to Philadelphia and the Reading car to Bethlehem overlooks the fact that the CNJ is not at home in Philadelphia. If the Southern car is sent to Cincinnati and the PRR to Philadelphia instead of the C&O and Reading respectively overlooks that the former two are at “home” in St. Louis while the latter are not. Send the NP car to Butte and the CB&Q car to Billings then would have the UP car violating Rule 3, for empty disposition from St. Louis. (Under the direct route plan, the B&O would turn this car over to the Rock Island at Chicago.)


If you leave assign loads that leave the B&O, D&H, L&N,  MP, M&StL, NH,RI, and SAL cars as empties, about 2,500 miles are accrued in getting these cars home from St. Louis, with the D&H, M&StL, NH, and SAL cars. Leave in St. Louis unused the ERIE, NH, PRR, SOU, SAL, RI, UP, and WP cars and about 3,500 miles are needed to get these cars back on home rails.     

 


And the answer of correct car assignments is:


Destination     |           Car Used                    


-----------------------------------------------------------


Pueblo, CO                 D&RGW                    


Philadelphia                Reading                      


Billings, MT               Northern Pacific                    


New York                   New Haven


Butte, MT                   UP                                          


Albany                        D&H


Salt Lake City             WP                                         


Bethlehem                  CNJ


St. Paul, MN               M&StL                                  


Richmond                   SAL


Cincinnati, OH           C&O                                      


Buffalo                        ERIE


The following cars were not used: B&O; CB&Q; RI; L&N; MP; NYC; PRR; and SOU. All of these cars can be delivered directly to the owning roads in St. Louis.


---END OF TRANSCRIBED ARTICLE---



Car Routing Rules and Car Shortages

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Did car shortages, especially for certain car types at
certain times of the year and on certain RRs and locations
occur? Yes, of course. Any fluctuation in traffic can
create a demand that translated to a shortage of certain
car types needed by certain RRs in certain service+locations.

Were the reasons for the shortages -often- expressed as
being caused by other RRs/countries/whatever "keeping"
(hoarding/not returning/whatever). Again, of course.
But I doubt that any RR was actually saying "let's keep
those nice CN box cars and not return them to CN".
(Substitute the car and road of your choice.) What the
small army of yard masters and car departments -was-
doing was trying to fill car needs/orders as efficiently
as possible.

****

The car usage and demurage rules/rates were an
attempt to create "equity" ... over time. They were
never intended to ensure that any one demand
bubble or even long term shortage would be satisfied
by cars being returned on time.

Lastly - when the shortage problems are being
addressed by the Prime Minister/any other gummint
official ... this is "whining" not problem solving.

- Jim Betz

P.S. I am -not- saying that car shortages didn't exist.
Nor am I saying that Canadian cars didn't spend
more time in the U.S. than was expected by the
owning RRs. See my 2nd and last paragraphs.


Switching Reclaim (was Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER)

Dave Nelson
 

With the drift into per diem I was reminded of something that always puzzled me and so I thought I’d ask: What is Switching Reclaim?  I know it’s something to do w/ per diem and terminal railroads but it’s not clear to me what are the issues that caused this to be a fuss over the years… other than everyone had a different opinion about what was fair.

Dave Nelson


Re: Photos With Freight Car Details

rwitt_2000
 

Bob Chaparro. wrote:


"Below are links to railroad subject photos by Harry M. Rhoads in the Library of Congress.  These photos can be enlarged to show freight car details.

http://cdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/20974

 

Caption:

A crowd of people are gathered around a spilled truckload of cabbage and a derailed railroad train car in Denver, Colorado. Sign on the truck reads: "S. L. Leach, Transfer, Drayage." 

Date  [between 1920 and 1930?] "



It also reminds me of one of advertising photos John Allen did for Varney usually printed on the back page of MR in the 1950s and reprinted in the Wescott book.


Bob Witt






Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :


 

But this only works if the per diem rate closely matches the actual cost of owning a car... if it's less,         This is true, and I can recall editorials in Railway Age in the 1940s and 1950s about the per diem rate. But remember also that IPD did not last long, because an oversupply of box cars was quickly created, followed by lots of idle cars, suggesting that just MAYBE the rate was too high -- not, of course, a topic for this list.


I agree, and it had the added disadvantage that it set up two classes of cars, so when business contracted, all those "expensive" cars went home, where the owners had to eat the payments with no earnings. But it DID prove that tinkering with the per diem rate could ensure an adequate cars supply, maybe more than adequate.

Dennis Storzek





Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

 

But this only works if the per diem rate closely matches the actual cost of owning a car... if it's less, it's to your advantage to own few cars and use someone elses. By the same token, the owner of a lot of cars is getting less than adequate return on his investment, since he's getting neither the use of the cars, or recovering their cost when used by others.

       Sure -- but remember you are SUPPOSED to be loading foreign cars. And any quick calculation shows you that the freight revenue from a loaded car well exceeds the per diem, so per diem is not the whole story in car usage. That's why the Car Service Rules emphasized loading a car so it would traverse its owner's rails en route (if possible).

This seemed to be a perpetual sore point, since the per diem rates were set arbitrarily, and couldn't be re-negotiated to account for the newness of the car, the scarcity of cars, or even inflation in the price of cars. I believe the incentive per diem program that was instituted well after the end of the steam era was finally an admission that this was so, and did indeed correct the car supply problem.

         This is true, and I can recall editorials in Railway Age in the 1940s and 1950s about the per diem rate. But remember also that IPD did not last long, because an oversupply of box cars was quickly created, followed by lots of idle cars, suggesting that just MAYBE the rate was too high -- not, of course, a topic for this list.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Larry Kline has left us today

Andy Carlson
 

I heard from Byron Rose that our STMFC friend Larry Kline died today. BSR does not know the cause. We have lost a great, gentle and helpful friend.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Off line freight cars

George Eichelberger
 

There are very specific examples in the Southern Railway files where Southern cars were being “trapped” off line and not being returned. During the freight car shortages after the war, and into the 50s, the AAR would issue bulletins asking railroads how many cars they had of various types and how many were on order. In one case, for gons I think, the AAR suggested the Southern obtain more cars and asked how many they had on order. The SR conducted a study, included in their response, that illustrated their per-diem imbalance with several railroads. (The Southern historically enjoyed a positive per-diem because they had such a large (proportionally) fleet of cars.)

The worst offender in the report? The New York Central.

Ike

PS In an extreme case, there is a 1924 AFE to write off a box car that had gone into Mexico and never was returned.


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Robert kirkham
 

I’m not sure the following information is directly connected to what was occurring during the war as it is documented in 1947,  but it indicates to me another avenue of research re car movements.  The “top secret” government of Canada cabinet minutes are partially available on line, and I came across a series of discussions at the end of 1946 and beginning of 1947. 
 
In one (Feb 3rd 1947, referring to previous cabinet discussions), the Minister of Trade and Commerce reported that the situation with regard to the supply of freight cars for the movement of grain from Western Canada for export and for feed purposes in Eastern Canada remained unsatisfactory.  The Minister of Transport (probably not to thrilled his colleague was calling him out) responded that the problem was receiving the urgent consideration of the Transport Controller and officials at the CN and CP railways.  The situation was aggravated by the fact that the return of the large numbers of Canadian boxcars at present in the United States could not easily be obtained so long as we continued to retain a substantial surplus of US coal cars.  he added that the operation of any formal priority system would be complicated and difficult because of the competing claims for movement of grain, coal, newsprint and other basic commodities.  The Transport Controller had made direct arrangements with the railroads for the supply of a fixed quantity of cars daily for movement of grain for export and feed purposes.  The cabinet agreed the Minister was to examine further and report on the situation. 
 
In another note months later, the Secretary of State for External Affairs  reported on a problem with the US office of defence transportation regarding the slow return of “coal cars” from Canada.    It led to a discussion of US cars in Canada and Canadian cars in the USA.  As a result of attention on the topic, the adverse balance (too many US cars in Canada) had been reduced from an excess of 18000 cars to 9000, but was still short of the target of 8000 cars.  It was proposed by the office of defence transportation that if the 8000 car goal was not met by August 5th, an embargo would stop further coal car movements into Canada.   Canadian railways reported they were making efforts to meet the goal “within the limits imposed by normal operating  practice, however, they were not returning empty cars” (no idea what this indicates – just quoting).  They call the target of 8000 cars unreasonably low.  Canada apparently had a “Coal Controller” at the time and he reported that a 1 week embargo would not have an adverse effect on the economy.  this is dated July 30 1947.
 
These are very incomplete excerpts, but I think suggest several possible avenues for research in the movement of freight cars back and forth across the border.
 
Regards,
 
Rob Kirkham


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :
    This kind of topic comes up from time to time. Remember the Car Service Rules, aimed at increasing the ratio of loaded miles to empty miles, STRONGLY encouraged using foreign cars for loading. Yes, you can call that "hanging on to them," but you can also call it using them in revenue service. The implication of "cheaper than new cars" is the belief that those loading Canadian (or ABC RR cars, or whatever) ought to be loading their OWN cars. But that's not what the Car Service Rules were about. 

But this only works if the per diem rate closely matches the actual cost of owning a car... if it's less, it's to your advantage to own few cars and use someone elses. By the same token, the owner of a lot of cars is getting less than adequate return on his investment, since he's getting neither the use of the cars, or recovering their cost when used by others. This seemed to be a perpetual sore point, since the per diem rates were set arbitrarily, and couldn't be re-negotiated to account for the newness of the car, the scarcity of cars, or even inflation in the price of cars. I believe the incentive per diem program that was instituted well after the end of the steam era was finally an admission that this was so, and did indeed correct the car supply problem.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Ian Cranstone
 

Another factor that likely drove down the number of Canadian cars appearing in the U.S. would have been the easy availability of empty U.S. cars following deliveries in many Canadian locales which were likely frequently loaded and routed south of the border towards home, and the car loading rules (at least theoretically) would have encouraged this behaviour.  The major exception to this would likely have been the Canadian cars assigned to paper service of one sort or another, as this required high-quality cars which were far more likely to be supplied by the Canadian roads. Of course, even by the 1930s, this traffic would have been served by the newer 40' steel boxcars starting to appear on the roster in large numbers, and not by the older steel frame 36' cars.

I don't think WWII changed much as far as the customs folks were concerned - I've been reading a great deal in a recent CNR steam locomotive manuscript (I was the book designer) about the customs rules and duties applied to locomotive transfers between CNR and its American subsidiaries during WWII, and the customs folks were still conducting business as usual. I've heard claims that at one time U.S. locomotives crossing the border had 36 hours to return, and as a result locomotives were tracked very carefully.  I suspect that customs would have a lot more trouble tracking cars generally, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that U.S cars did some domestic Canadian trips and Canadian cars did some domestic U.S. trips without being caught. 

Ian Cranstone

Osgoode, Ontario, Canada

lamontc@...

http://freightcars.nakina.net


On 2014-04-16, at 2:07 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:

 

The Canadian equivalent of the ICC’s Bureau of Statistics reported that about 10% of all Canadian carload shipments were destined for the U.S.  In addition, U.S. IMPORT regulations stated that all foreign owned freight cars that crossed the border into the U.S. had to be reloaded for destinations in its home country OR returned empty immediately OR import duties would be applied against whomever received it at the border.  IOW, the car could not legally be free rolling like any  U.S. boxcars were.

 

All of the above doesn’t mean a CP or CN boxcar wouldn’t take a shipment pretty far… say, to San Diego (it did per photo evidence) but only that it had to be returned to Canada immediately after being unloaded.

 

In examining thousands of wheel reports (post war, Class I trunk lines) it does appear that CP / CN boxcars appear far less often than you would expect based on their fleet sizes… roughly 10% of what you’d expect.

 

Somehow I do not think that’s just a coincidence.

 

No idea if what I’ve just described was changed for WWII.


2014 Central Ohio RPM

seaboard_1966
 

Guys
 
This is the last call for the 2014 Central Ohio RPM. 
 
The 2014 Central Ohio RPM is scheduled to take place April 24-26 at the restored Marion Union Station located at 532 W Center St, Marion, OH 43302.

As is the format with RPMs, there are no contests. There are model displays, clinics, door prizes, historical societies, a few small vendors and fellowship. This meet also features plenty of prototype trains as the depot sits right smack in the middle of 3 double track mainlines. CSX operates two of them an NS operates one pair. Total train count through Marion easily tops 50 trains a day. This meet also features nightly slide/movie shows and a meet ending, extra fare cookout.

While the meet does not actually begin until Friday we have a very informal get together on Thursday. This is for set up, fanning and what not. Then we go to dinner at The Shovel Rest. which is located right across the parking lot. After dinner there is a slide/movie show that goes on until we cant take it any longer. I will be at the depot around noon or so for setup for the meet. If you are in the area please stop by for a bit of work and a lot of socializing.

The meet begins at 9 AM on Friday. I will be there around 8 AM for those that need to set up. The registrar, Robin Blake, insists that coffee be available as a term of her employment. Thus that coffee is available to you guys as well. There will be clinics through the day as well as plenty of trains. The days formal activities will end at 6 PM and we will adjourn for dinner. After dinner, around 8 or so, we will gather at the depot for a slide/movie presentation. Again, this will go until we cant take it any longer.

On Saturday, by far the busiest day of the meet, doors will again open at 9 AM with me being there at 8 AM for those that need to set up. Door prizes, which are kindly donated by manufacturers, are given away at 2PM and you MUST BE PRESENT TO WIN. The meet will close at 5 PM followed by a quick take down/clean up. After the meet our highly trains staff of cooks will prepare the cookout for your enjoyment. This is an extra fare item that is not included with admission to the meet. After the cookout will be the nightly slide/movie show.

One thing that needs to be mentioned is cost. It is CHEAP, way CHEAP. It is ONLY $20.00 for the weekends activities and the cook out is an extra $6.00. So, for $26.00 you can have a weekend full of enjoyment with like minded individuals.

There is plenty of lodging available out at Rte 23 and Rte 95 which is only a few minutes from the meet venue. There are also plenty of other dining alternatives available on 95.

One new thing for this years meet is the availability of meet T shirts. We have not yet finalized the price but they wont be very expensive and I encourage ALL who attend to pick up at least one. The color will be gray with the meets new logo on the back. I think you will enjoy these new shirts. Let me beg folks to purchase these as Robin and I are doing these out of our own pocket and we don’t want to do this at a personal loss to us. If you are interested in a shirt please let me know your shirt size so that we can be sure to have one for you. There is a photo of them on our Facebook group or I can send a photo of one to you.

We are currently looking for folks to present clinics. Those that do so get free admission to the meet.

Also, please remember that proceeds go to the benefit of the Marion Union Station itself.

For more information go to our Facebook site
https://www.facebook.com/groups/438383252883060/. Or, you can contact me, Denis Blake, at dblake7@... or by phone at 614-266-3864. There are registration forms available on the Facebook group in the files section. You can mail those registrations to Robin Blake, aka THE Warden, 1512 LaCosta Drive or simply send a check with your name and information included and she will register you for the meet.

We look forward to seeing you folks there.

The Marion Mafia

Denis Blake, Robin Blake, Jeannine Blake, Kevin Tweed and John Peters.


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

Steve Lucas wrote:

 

Some at the Canadian roads felt that US roads were holding onto Canadian cars and simply paid the demurrage on them.  Cheaper than buying new cars, perhaps?  This was an issue on the Canadian carriers from post WWII to the 1970's when Railbox and IPD cars finally created a decent box car supply for American shippers.. The Staggers Act and the early 1980's recession may have helped out a bit, too.

A letter in the STMFC Files section from CN president Donald Gordon to his counterpart at either the Great Northern or Northern Pacific seems to lend some credence to the belief that US roads were holding onto Canadian cars..

    This kind of topic comes up from time to time. Remember the Car Service Rules, aimed at increasing the ratio of loaded miles to empty miles, STRONGLY encouraged using foreign cars for loading. Yes, you can call that "hanging on to them," but you can also call it using them in revenue service. The implication of "cheaper than new cars" is the belief that those loading Canadian (or ABC RR cars, or whatever) ought to be loading their OWN cars. But that's not what the Car Service Rules were about. 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

midrly
 

Some at the Canadian roads felt that US roads were holding onto Canadian cars and simply paid the demurrage on them.  Cheaper than buying new cars, perhaps?  This was an issue on the Canadian carriers from post WWII to the 1970's when Railbox and IPD cars finally created a decent box car supply for American shippers.. The Staggers Act and the early 1980's recession may have helped out a bit, too.

A letter in the STMFC Files section from CN president Donald Gordon to his counterpart at either the Great Northern or Northern Pacific seems to lend some credence to the belief that US roads were holding onto Canadian cars..

Steve Lucas.  


Re: Tangent 52'-6" gondola

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Gary:

As I recall I just pressed the floor up from underneath the car.  This was on an SP version that was released earlier.
I believe the B&O version is the same.

Bill Pardie

On Apr 16, 2014, at 10:13 AM, gary laakso wrote:

 

I finally purchased both the B&O version and the CRP version that has a wood floor.  Has anyone removed the wood floor for painting or is in a paint in place job?  These are very smart looking cars from Tangent. 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock



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Tangent 52'-6" gondola

gary laakso
 

I finally purchased both the B&O version and the CRP version that has a wood floor.  Has anyone removed the wood floor for painting or is in a paint in place job?  These are very smart looking cars from Tangent. 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock



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Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Photos With Freight Car Details

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 16, 2014, at 12:46 PM, Hobi Point <hobi.point@...> wrote:


What is the name of this type of boxcar end, on PM #88322 car? Buckeye has 6 rounded corrugations, this looks much different.

http://bit.ly/1jLdjhf

Thanks,
Tomislav Dornik

Tomislay, that was a Hutchins Channel Steel end manufactured in the 1920s by the Hutchins Car Roofing Co.  Hutchins ends were shown in the 1922. 1925, 1928, and 1931 Car Builders’ Cyclopedias but not in the 1937 edition.  A number of railroads ordered new single wood sheathed or double wood sheathed box cars in the 1920s which were equipped with Hutchins ends, but the Hutchins design became obsolete following the general adoption of all steel box car construction.

Richard Hendrickson


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