Date   

Re: Photos With Freight Car Details

Don Burn
 

These are Hutchins ends.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hobi Point
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:46 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Photos With Freight Car Details



What is the name of this type of boxcar end, on PM #88322 car? Buckeye has 6 rounded corrugations, this looks much different.

http://bit.ly/1jLdjhf


Thanks,

Tomislav Dornik


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

 
The Canadian equivalent of the ICC’s Bureau of Statistics reported that about 10% of all Canadian carload shipments were destined for the U.S.  In addition, U.S. IMPORT regulations stated that all foreign owned freight cars that crossed the border into the U.S. had to be reloaded for destinations in its home country OR returned empty immediately OR import duties would be applied against whomever received it at the border.  IOW, the car could not legally be free rolling like any  U.S. boxcars were.

      These rules have been described before, but it should be remembered that conductor's books from different parts of the country DO show empty Canadian cars being reloaded in the U.S., for U.S. destinations. Not sure how this would be evident at the next border crossing into Canada.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

np328
 

       Some time ago, I had uploaded scans of three pages entitled - Canadian Cars in the US. Dated to 1950 on all three pages. Not WWII however I model fall of 1953 and so it was close for me. 

      These scans landed in the photos section where they are now.

      One of the pages gives the number 17,000 CN Canadian cars in the US.

(CN cars not CP, CN only. I cannot help but wonder if there were a like number of CP cars in the US?)  

     Listed are international commodities as chiefly - Newsprint, Lumber, and Pulpwood.

     I will go out on a limb here and speculate that perhaps some of the pulpwood and perhaps lumber moved in older less than forty foots cars however hold it at that. I do know from looking over NP paperwork concerning cars used in lumber loading, dressed or finished lumber needs a decently graded car, however the NP and GN had many wood side SS and DS cars that were kept in very decent shape up until the end of this lists timeframe. In the same, there in no reason to think that the Canadian less than 40 XM's were decrepit in the forties and early fifties (as a whole).

     Also note the Special Service Order directing the return of Canadian cars.

Again, these scans are in the Photos Section.       Jim Dick - St. Paul



Re: Photos With Freight Car Details

Hobi Point
 

What is the name of this type of boxcar end, on PM #88322 car? Buckeye has 6 rounded corrugations, this looks much different.

http://bit.ly/1jLdjhf

Thanks,
Tomislav Dornik


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Dave Nelson
 

The Canadian equivalent of the ICC’s Bureau of Statistics reported that about 10% of all Canadian carload shipments were destined for the U.S.  In addition, U.S. IMPORT regulations stated that all foreign owned freight cars that crossed the border into the U.S. had to be reloaded for destinations in its home country OR returned empty immediately OR import duties would be applied against whomever received it at the border.  IOW, the car could not legally be free rolling like any  U.S. boxcars were.

 

All of the above doesn’t mean a CP or CN boxcar wouldn’t take a shipment pretty far… say, to San Diego (it did per photo evidence) but only that it had to be returned to Canada immediately after being unloaded.

 

In examining thousands of wheel reports (post war, Class I trunk lines) it does appear that CP / CN boxcars appear far less often than you would expect based on their fleet sizes… roughly 10% of what you’d expect.

 

Somehow I do not think that’s just a coincidence.

 

No idea if what I’ve just described was changed for WWII.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of devans1@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:56 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

 



For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.
Dave Evans


Re: Non-revenue car road numbers

Ian Cranstone
 


On 2014-04-16, at 10:52 AM, <destorzek@...> <destorzek@...> wrote:

 

One thing that did happen in the seventies or late eighties was the move to the UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) computer system for car tracking. Many roads used a letter prefixed to the car number to denote work service; the Soo traditionally used X, W for cars of Wisconsin Central ownership, although this became obsolete with the merger in 1961. Under the UMLER system, the car number had to be strictly numeric, and it led to some roads modifying the reporting mark field; the Soo began using SOOW for work cars, and SOOR for those work cars restricted to being hauled in the read of the train. I've seen some other instances of modified reporting marks, but can't think of them off hand. This, of course, well post dates the 1960 cut-off date of this list.


The adoption of the ACI system in the late 1960s forced the issue as well, as the labels did not support alphabetic characters (in addition, locomotives were restricted to four digits). In CN's case, some passenger equipment (Montreal MU cars, Turbo Trains, RDC's) had to be renumbered because of the letter character used as a prefix.  OCS equipment was safe as CN's practice was to use 5-digit numbers instead of the 6 digits applied to the revenue fleet, although for many years the Hart gondolas and ballast hoppers were in the revenue listings as well. 







Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada


Re: Non-revenue car road numbers

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


I apologize for continuing a little further beyond 1960. UMLER of course did not recognize ampersands since only 4 letters were allowed, yet D&RGW continued to include one in the reporting marks stencilled on their cars after UMLER. Southern Railway, generally abbreviated S.R. on this list, did not adopt reporting marks at all until way past the time period this list covers, and it might have been as late as the early 1980s. That is why a fully spelled out Southern generally appears above their car numbers. Pennsylvania also didn't adopt PRR reporting marks until the mid 1930s, hence the fully spelled out Pennsylvania over the number. In 4-51, Peensylvania had reporting marks, Southern did not.
 
Eric N.
 
One thing that did happen in the seventies or late eighties was the move to the UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) computer system for car tracking. Many roads used a letter prefixed to the car number to denote work service; the Soo traditionally used X, W for cars of Wisconsin Central ownership, although this became obsolete with the merger in 1961. Under the UMLER system, the car number had to be strictly numeric, and it led to some roads modifying the reporting mark field; the Soo began using SOOW for work cars, and SOOR for those work cars restricted to being hauled in the read of the train. I've seen some other instances of modified reporting marks, but can't think of them off hand. This, of course, well post dates the 1960 cut-off date of this list.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Non-revenue car road numbers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 16, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Like Dennis, I’m not aware of any rule regarding the numbering of MOW cars, at least not during the period covered by this list, and different railroads followed different practices.  In the west, Southern Pacific identified such cars with an MW prefix followed by a four digit number.  Both Union Pacific and Santa Fe applied six digit numbers in which the first digit was “9” and, at least from the 1930s through the 1950s, repainted cars permanently assigned to MOW service light gray.  Some cars, of course, were used mostly in company service but had revenue service numbers if they could be interchanged off-line.  Notable examples were the Santa Fe’s large fleet of tank cars, which were used almost entirely in locomotive fuel and water or domestic water service but could be, and occasionally were, employed to ship revenue commodities.  Those cars all had revenue service numbers and appeared in the ORERs.

Oops!  I need to correct an error here.  UP MW numbers had a “9" as first digit, but Santa Fe MW numbers were in the 190xxx number series.


Richard Hendrickson



Re: Non-revenue car road numbers

Richard Hendrickson
 


On Apr 16, 2014, at 7:52 AM, destorzek@... wrote:

I'm not aware of any such rule, but most roads used some sort of unique designator for work equipment simply because it helped prevent situations where a car was placed for loading, loaded off-line, then found not to meet the interchange requirements and was refused by the connecting road. In these situations the load would have to be re-loaded into a suitable car, and I'm sure the railroad was liable for the cost, also any further claims of damage to, or "shrinkage" of the load. It just made good sense to make it really clear which cars were not to be placed for loading.

That said, there were certain classes of MOW cars that could be loaded off-line... on the Soo Line, ballast cars were released from MOW service for coal loading during the winter, and these cars carried revenue freight car numbers. This was workable because most of the Soo's originated coal traffic was from the lake ports and the cars tended to stay on line, so it wasn't a huge problem to reassemble the ballast car fleet in the spring.

One thing that did happen in the seventies or late eighties was the move to the UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) computer system for car tracking. Many roads used a letter prefixed to the car number to denote work service; the Soo traditionally used X, W for cars of Wisconsin Central ownership, although this became obsolete with the merger in 1961. Under the UMLER system, the car number had to be strictly numeric, and it led to some roads modifying the reporting mark field; the Soo began using SOOW for work cars, and SOOR for those work cars restricted to being hauled in the read of the train. I've seen some other instances of modified reporting marks, but can't think of them off hand. This, of course, well post dates the 1960 cut-off date of this list.

Dennis Storzek


Like Dennis, I’m not aware of any rule regarding the numbering of MOW cars, at least not during the period covered by this list, and different railroads followed different practices.  In the west, Southern Pacific identified such cars with an MW prefix followed by a four digit number.  Both Union Pacific and Santa Fe applied six digit numbers in which the first digit was “9” and, at least from the 1930s through the 1950s, repainted cars permanently assigned to MOW service light gray.  Some cars, of course, were used mostly in company service but had revenue service numbers if they could be interchanged off-line.  Notable examples were the Santa Fe’s large fleet of tank cars, which were used almost entirely in locomotive fuel and water or domestic water service but could be, and occasionally were, employed to ship revenue commodities.  Those cars all had revenue service numbers and appeared in the ORERs.


Richard Hendrickson



Re: Non-revenue car road numbers

Dennis Storzek
 

I'm not aware of any such rule, but most roads used some sort of unique designator for work equipment simply because it helped prevent situations where a car was placed for loading, loaded off-line, then found not to meet the interchange requirements and was refused by the connecting road. In these situations the load would have to be re-loaded into a suitable car, and I'm sure the railroad was liable for the cost, also any further claims of damage to, or "shrinkage" of the load. It just made good sense to make it really clear which cars were not to be placed for loading.

That said, there were certain classes of MOW cars that could be loaded off-line... on the Soo Line, ballast cars were released from MOW service for coal loading during the winter, and these cars carried revenue freight car numbers. This was workable because most of the Soo's originated coal traffic was from the lake ports and the cars tended to stay on line, so it wasn't a huge problem to reassemble the ballast car fleet in the spring.

One thing that did happen in the seventies or late eighties was the move to the UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) computer system for car tracking. Many roads used a letter prefixed to the car number to denote work service; the Soo traditionally used X, W for cars of Wisconsin Central ownership, although this became obsolete with the merger in 1961. Under the UMLER system, the car number had to be strictly numeric, and it led to some roads modifying the reporting mark field; the Soo began using SOOW for work cars, and SOOR for those work cars restricted to being hauled in the read of the train. I've seen some other instances of modified reporting marks, but can't think of them off hand. This, of course, well post dates the 1960 cut-off date of this list.

Dennis Storzek


Non-revenue car road numbers

George Eichelberger
 

Is anyone aware of an ICC rule from the late 60s or 70s that required railroads to differentiate their freight cars as revenue or non-revenue by road number assignments? Through that period, the Southern Railway would convert a revenue car to MoW or non-revenue service but did not change their road numbers. For example, many of the original welded rail flat cars carried their as-built numbers for years after they were in that service. The practice was typical until about 1970 when all (!) of the non-revenue equipment was renumbered into unique series numbers. At first, the SR used a alpha prefix-number scheme T-1001 for a tool car for example but made another change (again all at the same time mol) to a six-digit 9xxxxx system.

And, if there was some kind of “rule” forcing that change, did it also apply to cars that had been rebuilt into different configurations? Cars rebuilt from flat cars carried their original number although they might have become a wood rack, etc. The RER showed the rebuilds as “exceptions” to the number series so they had proper interchange info. As with the non-revenue equipment, most of the rebuilt cars were renumbered in the early 1970s. Knowing railroads did not do things on a whim, I have always suspected an ICC or AAR rule was responsible.

Ike


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ottokroutil
 

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Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

naptownprr
 

Tony,

Even if the artist painted from life, he's still going to give us what he/she saw in a certain light, and with highlights, shadows, etc. Grif Teller was great, but, with all due respect, I would not rely on a painting as a conclusive guide. I would also look at lots of photos from different sources, and take into consideration lighting, type of film, etc. I would also consult people in the historical society associated with the railroad that owned the equipment in question.

In the end, I suppose, we modelers make our best guesses as to how something looked.

Jim



Quoting Tony Thompson <tony@signaturepress.com>:

Jim Hunter. wrote:
But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.
That depends. If the artist painted from life, I think you
might think it was actually pretty good. In the case of the famous
Grif Teller calendar paintings for PRR, we know he DID paint from
life. I would not hesitate to match a freight car to a Teller
painting. If, that is, I morphed into a SPF.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history





The ORPTE (was Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER)

Dick Harley
 

The "Passenger ORER" was actually titled the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE).

The first issue was March 1943, and it was issued twice a year (March & September) until it became an annual in 1950.
The last issue was #36 in March 1971.

It did contain freight carrying express cars.


Just the facts,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

It depends on the era. Way back when the ORER was still called "The Official Railway Equipment Guide" (in the 1890s), there was comparatively little work equipment designated as such. Such cars as cranes, steam shovels, pile drivers, snowplows, flangers, and a few other dedicated cars, were the only ones listed. They were quite frequently listed with  the freight cars. Other work equipment was usually freight cars that had been commandeered from their usual purposes. That such cars were being used in MW service was usually not noted. If they were listed, the numbers were often still freight car numbers.
 
By the 1920s, work equipment of all kinds was being listed, sometimes in detail, and usually in a separate section of a railroad's roster pages. Some railroads never listed their nonrevenue cars, but many roads, large and small, did. But, as time went on, most lines dropped those listings, since the cars were obviously not being interchanged. The last major hold-out was the Norfolk & Western, which continued up until the ORER was reformatted in the early 1970s.
 
Early ORERs are troves of rosters of work equipment. I am compiling an all-time list of cranes, etc., used on all common-carrier railroads in North America, and the ORERs, along with ICC valuation reports, are the chief sources of data.
 
John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: jimbetz
To: STMFC Sent: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 6:55 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

 
Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service equipment is and always was specifically excluded from the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of cars that might show up in interchange service". True???


      As Eric Neubauer already pointed out, yes, you are wrong. A number of railroads DID list MW equipment in the ORER, it was their option.

Tony Thompson




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment. 


       I think the NMRA introduction is probably right. I have Issue No. 2 of the Passenger ORER, and it is dated September 1943.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Hunter. wrote:

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

       That depends. If the artist painted from life, I think you might think it was actually pretty good. In the case of the famous Grif Teller calendar paintings for PRR, we know he DID paint from life. I would not hesitate to match a freight car to a Teller painting. If, that is, I morphed into a SPF.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

mrprksr <mrprksr@...>
 

I always get a kick out of these proto color discussions....I put 42 years as a conductor on PRR thru NS.....I've seen the cabin tracks at Enola, Pa and Meadows, NJ with many cabin cars on them....I started when crews had assigned cabins.....and you would be hard pressed to see 2 cabins in the exact same hue......Tuscan passenger cars were the same thing....I would attend a PRRT&HS annual meetings and here the "experts" say a car was the wrong color and then watch movies that night of trains going around horseshoe curve and any shade of tuscan you wanted was there,.....Enjoy the hobby....it's suppose to be fun....Don't take yourselves too seriously.....Lar


From: Paul Hillman
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 
Jim, No you can't, but Bruce Smith's, etc. description of the Pennsy FCC 1940 color being a more reddish/orange color seems to be a close rendition of the artist's.
 
I just think that it's a nice faded-color rendering and seems to follow the FCC 1940 description. Photos are color deceptive also.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 
But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim

Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@...>:

> The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
>
> I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
> brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
> original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
> I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
> hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
> Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
>
> The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
> the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
> reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
>
> Paul Hillman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce F. Smith> To: STMFC@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce Smith
> Auburn, AL
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: STMFC@...
> [STMFC@...] on behalf of
> chris_hillman@...
> [chris_hillman@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
>
> What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
> Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
> maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
>
> Thanks, Paul Hillman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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