Date   

Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

Jim, No you can't, but Bruce Smith's, etc. description of the Pennsy FCC 1940 color being a more reddish/orange color seems to be a close rendition of the artist's.
 
I just think that it's a nice faded-color rendering and seems to follow the FCC 1940 description. Photos are color deceptive also.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim

Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@...>:

> The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
>
> I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
> brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
> original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
> I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
> hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
> Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
>
> The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
> the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
> reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
>
> Paul Hillman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce F. Smith
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce Smith
> Auburn, AL
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: STMFC@...
> [STMFC@...] on behalf of
> chris_hillman@...> [chris_hillman@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
>
> What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
> Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
> maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
>
> Thanks, Paul Hillman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

naptownprr
 

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim


Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@msn.com>:

The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.

I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
Brown" color. (I'd assume.)

The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.

Paul Hillman



----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce F. Smith<mailto:smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color




Paul,


What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!


Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
[STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of
chris_hillman@msn.com<mailto:chris_hillman@msn.com>
[chris_hillman@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color





What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman







Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

Thanks Bruce, Sounds like you've got these Pennsy colors down to a deep perfection.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

Paul,

Thanks.  For 1953, the base color could be either the 1940s FCC or 1950s FCC, depending on when the cabin car was repainted completely.  The Walthers base color on this car is pretty close to the 1950's color.  The 1940's color would be more orange.  There are several recipes for these colors on Jerry Britton's site, Keystone Crossings (under Modeling - General). If you can get it, PolyScale Zinc Chromate is a good color to work with.  It will be slightly more red/orange than the Walthers color and will help fade the Walthers color and lettering. I use 50% zinc chromate, 50% special oxide red for my plastic cabins and a mix of 3 to 4 parts Scalecoat Illinois Central Orange to 1 part Oxide Red on my brass cabins for that 1940s color.

Here's hoping Walthers brings the N6B back and uses the center cupola body with the offset cupola roof to fix that annoying window issue.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Bruce Smith
 

Paul,

Thanks.  For 1953, the base color could be either the 1940s FCC or 1950s FCC, depending on when the cabin car was repainted completely.  The Walthers base color on this car is pretty close to the 1950's color.  The 1940's color would be more orange.  There are several recipes for these colors on Jerry Britton's site, Keystone Crossings (under Modeling - General). If you can get it, PolyScale Zinc Chromate is a good color to work with.  It will be slightly more red/orange than the Walthers color and will help fade the Walthers color and lettering. I use 50% zinc chromate, 50% special oxide red for my plastic cabins and a mix of 3 to 4 parts Scalecoat Illinois Central Orange to 1 part Oxide Red on my brass cabins for that 1940s color.

Here's hoping Walthers brings the N6B back and uses the center cupola body with the offset cupola roof to fix that annoying window issue.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of Paul Hillman [chris_hillman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color



The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
 
I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)  I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
 
The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
 
Paul Hillman


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Dave,
 
Sorry it wasn't the case. My first thought was that I was missing something, so I immediately had to get up and look. :-) It sure would have made constructing passenger car rosters a bit easier for the early 1940s. I'll have to remember that some railroads do have passenger listings that late.
 
Eric
 
 

Eric,

I did not look at the passenger equipment closely in the past, but it appears to have passenger equipment listings for only a few of the railroads. I only spot checked the NMRA reprint, and while many of the big northeastern roads (my area of interest) have passenger equipment listings, none of the major western railroads I checked have passenger equipment lists. Only mid-west road I spotted with passenger equipment listed was CMStP&P (Milwaukee road.)
For the RR's with listings, the Passenger equipment list is just after each RR's Freight equipment.

Bruce Smith provided me with the PRR's passenger equipment list from the passenger ORER from later in the war and it has more detail than the January '43 listing - more notes, number of seats, and mileage and per diem rates. Curious if the rates appeared because the ODT was just grabbing empty passenger cars and routing them far from home roads.

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment.

Dave Evans



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

My 1-43 ORER (original) does not appear to include passenger cars, at least for most of the listings. I thought these were elimnated in about 1941..


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Depends on the railroad and the era. When listed, cars in MW service are usually indicated as such and usually put in their own section. LNE was pretty thorough in listing their cars in the ORER, but then it wasn't a large roster. Cabooses were often listed with freight cars even though they don't carry freight. Dual service cars like Hart convertible ballast cars often made it into the freight section. The problem is, there's no hard line to be drawn in some cases, so the railroads used their individual logic. MW cars are more likely to be shown before the mid 1930s.
 
Eric N.
 
 

 

Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

Eric,

I did not look at the passenger equipment closely in the past, but it appears to have passenger equipment listings for only a few of the railroads. I only spot checked the NMRA reprint, and while many of the big northeastern roads (my area of interest) have passenger equipment listings, none of the major western railroads I checked have passenger equipment lists. Only mid-west road I spotted with passenger equipment listed was CMStP&P (Milwaukee road.)
For the RR's with listings, the Passenger equipment list is just after each RR's Freight equipment.

Bruce Smith provided me with the PRR's passenger equipment list from the passenger ORER from later in the war and it has more detail than the January '43 listing - more notes, number of seats, and mileage and per diem rates. Curious if the rates appeared because the ODT was just grabbing empty passenger cars and routing them far from home roads.

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <eaneubauer@...> wrote :

My 1-43 ORER (original) does not appear to include passenger cars, at least for most of the listings. I thought these were elimnated in about 1941..


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
 
I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)  I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
 
The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

Paul,

What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model?  These matter!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of chris_hillman@... [chris_hillman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color



What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown, maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

Dennis,

You are correct on the banner photo - I have the hi-res .tiff file from LOC and the heralds are pretty clear at that resolution.

There may be one or two more in another Delano photo taken to the right of the banner photo, but the angles are more oblique and length harder to verify, and their heralds are not discernible. Blasted weathering - someone over did it... ;-)

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <destorzek@...> wrote :




---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.

I donno... there are at least two in the Jack Delano photo used on the list web page; third track back, third car from left appears to be a NC&StL single sheathed car, and seventh track back, third car from the right is some sort of DS car, maybe L&N. Neither car is a vent.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.

I donno... there are at least two in the Jack Delano photo used on the list web page; third track back, third car from left appears to be a NC&StL single sheathed car, and seventh track back, third car from the right is some sort of DS car, maybe L&N. Neither car is a vent.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Bruce Smith
 

Paul,

What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model?  These matter!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of chris_hillman@... [chris_hillman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color



What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown, maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Hansmann
 

The NMRA reprinted the 1943 ORER as well. That's the one I've been reviewing.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

naptownprr
 

Chris,

It depends on what time period you are modeling. When those cars were first built, they were probably a much redder color than they were later on. By the late 1930s and the 1940s they were freight car color, including the roofs. After roughly 1950 or so, they were freight car color but with black roofs. Freight car color on the Pennsy is debated and often a matter of personal perception, but it was not Tuscan red. Tuscan red was used on passenger cars. FCC was redder in the twenties, became more like an orange iron-oxide in the 40s, and became browner through the 1950s.

I model 1951, and I paint all my cabin cars Scalecoat II iron oxide. The color that Walthers used is just a tad too brown for me, but might work for the early 60s, just before merger. Of course, the effects of the elements and the vagaries of photography all affect what we perceive in old photographs. Maybe a dilute spray of some light boxcar color would be good for weathering. Bragdon powders or chalk might also help.

Jim


Quoting chris_hillman@msn.com:

What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
Thanks, Paul Hillman


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

John Barry
 

Dave,

I can now say that it was the Last one with Passenger Car info, at least on a large scale as I found the date from mine in a spreadsheet and it is April of 43, which would be the first without the Passenger info.
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682



From: "devans1@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

 
John,

January 1943, Vol. LVIII, No. 3 NMRA reproduced it because it reflects the end of depression era scrapping, and the start of WWII car building - it also includes passenger cars, and Gene Green in the Introduction indicates it was one of the last ORER's with freight and passenger cars in the same volume.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Eric,
Which 43 edition got re-printed?  I've only seen the NMRA 53 reprint and am fortunate to have one of the 43 originals, but it is in storage.
John Barry




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


My 1-43 ORER (original) does not appear to include passenger cars, at least for most of the listings. I thought these were elimnated in about 1941..
 

John,

January 1943, Vol. LVIII, No. 3 NMRA reproduced it because it reflects the end of depression era scrapping, and the start of WWII car building - it also includes passenger cars, and Gene Green in the Introduction indicates it was one of the last ORER's with freight and passenger cars in the same volume.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Eric,
Which 43 edition got re-printed?  I've only seen the NMRA 53 reprint and am fortunate to have one of the 43 originals, but it is in storage.
John Barry


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

John,

January 1943, Vol. LVIII, No. 3 NMRA reproduced it because it reflects the end of depression era scrapping, and the start of WWII car building - it also includes passenger cars, and Gene Green in the Introduction indicates it was one of the last ORER's with freight and passenger cars in the same volume.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <northbaylines@...> wrote :

Eric,
Which 43 edition got re-printed?  I've only seen the NMRA 53 reprint and am fortunate to have one of the 43 originals, but it is in storage.
John Barry


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Brad Andonian
 

I just painted mine with Trucolor paint

PRR frt car brown #209

Thanks,
Brad Andonian

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:57 AM, "chris_hillman@..." wrote:
 
What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown, maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
Thanks, Paul Hillman



Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown, maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.

I have spotted a number of other US sub-40's in those photos (L&N and Southern being the most common), and since the US sub-40 fleet was only about 15-20% larger than the Canadian sub-40 fleet, statistically (recognizing a pretty small sample set - although a lot of the yard photo's are Delano's from the upper midwest) this would indicate that they were not as common south of the border as one would expect if there were no car service rules requiring Canadian cars to migrate back to Canada as soon as possible??

Thoughts? Am I missing something? I am not the expert.... But I am wondering how many CN and CP cars should be in a WWII fleet for a US railroad.
F&C has recently been a big help with some of their new single piece body sub-40 US box car kits. For WWII, a fleet needs many of these cars - and flat kits take considerably longer to assemble.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <eric@...> wrote :

I took a moment to review and compile the CN and CP 1943 ORER details. The listing does not include a nice and neat recapitulation listing, so here’s a rough count of only those box cars (XM) that are less than 40-foot interior length.

 

CN – 25,998

CP – 35,360

 

And here’s a little bit of perspective on these box car numbers. The 1943 total of the CN & CP less than 40-foot box cars was more than all of the DS & SS USRA box cars built and assigned in 1919 (49,500).

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

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