Date   

sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

Allen Rueter
 

As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


Re: Fw: Future Floor Wax

Douglas Harding
 

Bill I think the key is took for the ingredient, 100% clear acrylic.

 

Here is a more complete story which covers are the variations and brand names: http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html  

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Benjamin Hom
 

Al Kresse wrote:
"The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe."

According to Appendix A of the C&OHS "Freight Car Equipment of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway August 1, 1937":
C&O 3250-3349, 2 cars remaining in May 1938, last cars retired in 1938.
C&O 3350-3749, 7 cars remaining in May 1938, last cars retired in 1938.


Ben Hom


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 12:10 PM, water.kresse@... wrote:

The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe.
That may be true, Al, but most of the 84230-84729,84730-86499 box cars and the 86500-86999 series ventilated box cars, all 36’ wood-bodied cars with steel ends and underframes built in 1923, remained in revenue service through WW II and some lasted into the ‘50s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe War Emergency Boxcars

michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
 

Dear Bill,

I have a pdf drawing of the BX-38 if you want to contact me off-line.

Cheers!

Michael Gross
La Cañada, CA


Fw: Future Floor Wax

Benjamin Hom
 

Bill Pardie asked:

"I know that the Future floor wax which many used as a base
for applying decals evolved into Pledge with Future.  I was
looking in a store this morning and now the Pledge does
not have the word Future on the label.  Is this product now
a thing of the past?"


No - it's still around.
http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-11182-Future-Acrylic-Finish/dp/B000ARPH4C


Ben Hom


Future Floor Wax

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I know that the Future floor wax which many used as a base
for applying decals evolved into Pledge with Future. I was
looking in a store this morning and now the Pledge does
not have the word Future on the label. Is this product now
a thing of the past?

Bill Pardie


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

water.kresse@...
 

The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe.

 

Al Kresse


From: "Richard Hendrickson" To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:34:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE


On Apr 13, 2014, at 10:39 AM, jon miller wrote:

>
> On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
>> Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.
>
>     This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply’s.

Jon, that 10% figure is a bit misleading, as many of the 36’ box cars that were still in service during WW II were older and/or second-hand cars owned by short lines and seldom or never went very far off line.  Among the class 1 railroads, those that were buying new 36’ box cars in the 1920s were mostly southeastern RRs:  Southern, L&N, C&O, etc. (the Southern was still taking delivery of new 36’ wood box cars with truss rod underframes as late as 1927).

Since you model the Santa Fe, however, it’s worth noting that the AT&SF still had almost 4,000 36’ box cars on its active roster in 10/41, and that was somewhat more than 10% of the box car  fleet - about one of every seven cars.  A few of those were cars acquired second hand with the purchase of the KCM&O and various short lines, but most were wood-bodied cars of classes Bx-O and Bx-W, -X, -Y, and -Z built in 1906-’15 and upgraded in the early ‘30s to become classes Bx-14 through Bx-17.  They tended to be used mostly in company and short-haul service, but I have a photo of one as far off line as Pensacola, FL.  Fortunately, Al Westerfield produced resin kits for models of those cars, and to model 1941 you should definitely have at least 2 or 3 of them.  Replacing those obsolete cars was the reason for the very large order for new 40’ steel box cars that was delivered in late 1941 and 1942, the 5,000+ cars of class Bx-37.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 10:39 AM, jon miller <atsfus@...> wrote:


On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

    This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply’s.

Jon, that 10% figure is a bit misleading, as many of the 36’ box cars that were still in service during WW II were older and/or second-hand cars owned by short lines and seldom or never went very far off line.  Among the class 1 railroads, those that were buying new 36’ box cars in the 1920s were mostly southeastern RRs:  Southern, L&N, C&O, etc. (the Southern was still taking delivery of new 36’ wood box cars with truss rod underframes as late as 1927).

Since you model the Santa Fe, however, it’s worth noting that the AT&SF still had almost 4,000 36’ box cars on its active roster in 10/41, and that was somewhat more than 10% of the box car  fleet - about one of every seven cars.  A few of those were cars acquired second hand with the purchase of the KCM&O and various short lines, but most were wood-bodied cars of classes Bx-O and Bx-W, -X, -Y, and -Z built in 1906-’15 and upgraded in the early ‘30s to become classes Bx-14 through Bx-17.  They tended to be used mostly in company and short-haul service, but I have a photo of one as far off line as Pensacola, FL.  Fortunately, Al Westerfield produced resin kits for models of those cars, and to model 1941 you should definitely have at least 2 or 3 of them.  Replacing those obsolete cars was the reason for the very large order for new 40’ steel box cars that was delivered in late 1941 and 1942, the 5,000+ cars of class Bx-37.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

jon miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

    This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply's.

-- 

Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

devansprr
 

Ike, John,
The Army's official WWII history "The Transportation Corps: Movements, Training and Supply" from the Technical Services series lists Montgomery, AL as one of the ten major Transit storage locations during WWII (as was Lathrop).  A storage depot was also established at Montgomery. So the routing may have made sense if the cars were routed through Montgomery. I think the Montgomery routing would occur if the ship out of Charleston had not yet been identified/scheduled when the oil left Port Arthur. I'm not knowledgeable on SE US rail routes during WWII, but once in Montgomery, moving the cargo over CofG and ACL to Charleston might make more sense (CofG from Montgomery to Savannah via Columbus and Macon, then ACL to Charleston)?

The other Army transit storage locations serving the southeast US were Richmond, VA and Shreveport, LA

This is most likely lubricants, so it would be in barrels or even something smaller (square metal cans?) - I do not think crude oil was shipped overseas, and once refined, I think the Army labeled fuel as fuel (at least for diesel and gasoline), not oil. Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

BTW, the Army's book "Global Logistics and Strategy: 1940-1943" has a map that suggests nearly all cargo out of the Charleston POE was destined for the middle east via the Red Sea, Iran, Southwestern Russia via Iran, and the China-Burma-India (CBI) theater, all via the Indian Ocean. There were shipments of locomotives (including diesels) and rolling stock to Iran for a railroad that ran to the Caspian Sea operated by the Army's Military Railway Service (that railroad was standard gauge, unlike the Russian broad gauge.) That "line-of-communication" (Army for supply route) from Charleston to the Caspian Sea would have included US "lend-lease" shipments to Russia.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <northbaylines@...> wrote :

Ike,

I know this is a very late reply, but I just found this thread and did not see a response to one of your questions. 

As far as I can tell, CP, NdeM and any other car sitting on US rails was subject to ODT orders.  They tried to stay out of the way as much as possible, but a significant portion of their work was to avoid congestion in the ports.  Hence the nationwide system of holding and reconsignment points like Lathrop for the SF POE.  The records I've seen at San Bruno deal mostly with special cases and exceptional movements like the consolidation of alcohol from various producers and the transfer of another batch from storage in Louisianna to Richmond for loading on several Soviet tankers.  

John Barry
Cameron Park, CA 


Re: GATX tank cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

Ian,

 

               Thanks very much for this info – it’s exactly what I needed!  Perhaps if I’m patient, Tangent will produce an appropriate model of an insulated, 7200-gal GATC tank car.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Ian Cranstone
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] GATX tank cars

 

 

On 2014-04-12, at 10:14 AM, Aley, Jeff A wrote:



Okay, now I’ve checked the ORER, and I see that all of these cars are class TMI (insulated).  How do I figure out the capy?  The ORER listing doesn’t show the gallonage, just the weight capy.  Is there a relationship, or is the weight capy just the size of the journals (40-ton vs 50 ton) ?

 

From the 9/1955 Tank Car Capacities volume with capacities in gallons (dome capacity in gallons):

 

GATX 32443 - 8079(234)

-

GATX 32470 - 7193(180)

GATX 32478 - 7207(180)

GATX 32480 - 7194(180)

GATX 32486 - 7198(180)

-

GATX 32623 - 7185(173)

GATX 32624 - 7189(173)

GATX 32636 - 7187(173)

-

GATX 32641 - 7189(179)

GATX 32643 - 7191(179)

GATX 32645 - 7192(179)

-

GATX 32648 - 7190(174)

-

GATX 32665 - 7184(178)

GATX 32667 - 7192(178)

GATX 32672 - 7191(178)

-

GATX 32684 - 7187(177)

GATX 32685 - 7187(177)

GATX 32686 - 7191(177)

GATX 32687 - 7190(177)

GATX 32688 - 7190(177)

GATX 32692 - 7199(177)

 

All cars are listed as insulated and equipped with heater coils. None of these numbers appear in the 6/1936 Tank Car Capacities volume, suggesting that they were built after that date.

 


Re: GATX tank cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

Carl,

 

               Thanks for the background on phosporus.  I hadn’t noticed that the melting point was so low, so I didn’t fully understand how it could be transported in tank cars.

               FWIW, the cars in question carried elemental phosphorus from FMC / Westvaco in Pocatello to an FMC / Westvaco plant in Lawrence, KS.  In Lawrence, they combined the phosphorus with soda ash (shipped in covered hoppers from Westvaco, WY) to make tri-sodium phosphate (TSP).  The TSP, in turn, was shipped to Kansas City in covered hoppers to Proctor and Gamble who used it to make Tide laundry detergent and other soaps.  Of course the other major ingredient in soaps is fat (tallow), which P&G received from the many stock yards in KC (I presume via tank car).

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Carl Gustafson
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:44 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: GATX tank cars

 

 

On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 02:14:05PM +0000, Aley, Jeff A wrote:
> Okay, now I've checked the ORER, and I see that all of these cars are class TMI (insulated). How do I figure out the capy? The ORER listing doesn't show the gallonage, just the weight capy. Is there a relationship, or is the weight capy just the size of the journals (40-ton vs 50 ton) ?
>

If these are phosphorus cars, the specific gravity (density) of phosphorus is 1.82 g/cc, or
approximately 15 lbs/gallon. So if the capacity is 150,000 lbs, that would be about 10,000 gallons (if
I mathed correctly). However, phosphorus is (or was) shipped under a water blanket, so the tank would
have to be big enough to accommodate that as well, so you need to add room for the water; unfortunately I don't know how much water is typically used.

Phosphorus is loaded as a liquid (it melts at 111.6 F). In general, there's enough thermal mass (or
insulation) for the material to remain liquid, but occasionall a tank will freeze if it sits in a
really cold area for a longer-than-anticipated time. So there's probably steam coils to consider (or
maybe a jacket, I dunno), also.

(I used to work for a company that made elemental phosphorus, and have read about freeze-ups as well
as what happens when you load the material without the water blanket - big fire, with dense white
clouds of phosporic anhydride/phosphoric acid!)

Carl Gustafson


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

John Barry
 

Ike,

I know this is a very late reply, but I just found this thread and did not see a response to one of your questions. 

As far as I can tell, CP, NdeM and any other car sitting on US rails was subject to ODT orders.  They tried to stay out of the way as much as possible, but a significant portion of their work was to avoid congestion in the ports.  Hence the nationwide system of holding and reconsignment points like Lathrop for the SF POE.  The records I've seen at San Bruno deal mostly with special cases and exceptional movements like the consolidation of alcohol from various producers and the transfer of another batch from storage in Louisianna to Richmond for loading on several Soviet tankers.  

John Barry
Cameron Park, CA 


Re: Toy Flat Cars?

Benjamin Hom
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
"It’s worth mentioning that there is an ACCURATE, not stand-in, HO model of the large SP class of 53'6" flat cars, F-70-7, created by Red Caboose, the dies for which are now owned by the SP Historical and Technical Society. The Society has also now produced the welded F-70-10 car. Availability varies with timing of production, but to determine status at any time, you can visit the Espee Models web page at: 
https://espeemodels.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home


Thanks for the reminder, Tony.  It was certainly NOT my intention to disparage the Red Caboose F-70-7; however, I can certainly see things from Bruce and Pat's point of view, where acquiring cars for 15-20 car trains of flatcars can add up pretty quickly at $40 per model.


Ben Hom


Re: Toy Flat Cars?

Tony Thompson
 

Ben Hom wrote:

However, the Bachmann and Tyco models are much nicer tooling and than the Athearn flatcar.  Bruce Petty and Pat Bray uses them as low-cost stand-ins for the Red Caboose/Intermountain SP Class F-70-7 models to fill out trains of lumber flats going to/from Oregon.  Bruce's models are detailed at http://lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html ; Pat's article in the Fall 2008 issue of the SPH&TS Trainline also details the Tyco model upgrades as well as scratchbuilding Class F-70-10 and F-70-12 welded flatcars.

It’s worth mentioning that there is an ACCURATE, not stand-in, HO model of the large SP class of 53'6" flat cars, F-70-7, created by Red Caboose, the dies for which are now owned by the SP Historical and Technical Society. The Society has also now produced the welded F-70-10 car. Availability varies with timing of production, but to determine status at any time, you can visit the Espee Models web page at: 


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Toy Flat Cars?

Benjamin Hom
 

Robert Schott asked:
"Does anyone know if there is a prototype for the Bachmann 50' 13 stake, steel fish belly side sill flat?  This car is usually bright green with a removable tan, almost yellow deck."

As with the Athearn 50 ft flatcar, no prototypes for the Bachmann (and almost identical Tyco) 50 ft/13 stake pocket flatcar have surfaced.
http://ho-scaletrains.net/bachmannhoscalerollingstock/id46.html
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/freightcars/id15.html

However, the Bachmann and Tyco models are much nicer tooling and than the Athearn flatcar.  Bruce Petty and Pat Bray uses them as low-cost stand-ins for the Red Caboose/Intermountain SP Class F-70-7 models to fill out trains of lumber flats going to/from Oregon.  Bruce's models are detailed at http://lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html ; Pat's article in the Fall 2008 issue of the SPH&TS Trainline also details the Tyco model upgrades as well as scratchbuilding Class F-70-10 and F-70-12 welded flatcars.


"Also, is there a prototype for the old (1958) Revell, 54', 15 stake, steel fish belly side sill flat with an overhanging wood deck?  This car usually shows up at swap meets painted black and lettered for ERIE 4030.  It has a cast metal spine."

See Bill Wright's article in the November 1987 issue of Model Railroading (unfortunately, not available online at Trainlife.com) for more information on possible prototypes for this model (CNW, CGW, NKP, C&O, ATSF).  Other articles in the model press include Jerry Hamsmith's article using this model for CB&Q Class FM-13 in the July 1991 issue of Mainline Modeler, and a Bob Rivard conversion to a Rock Island flat after the era of this list in the February 1994 issue of Railmodel Journal.
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/471/34372/february-1994-page-58


Ben Hom


Re: Toy Flat Cars?

Bill Welch
 

If the old Revell model became a Con-Cor item, it can be made into a very credible CB&Q flat.
Bill Welch


Re: GATX tank cars

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2014-04-12, at 10:14 AM, Aley, Jeff A wrote:

Okay, now I’ve checked the ORER, and I see that all of these cars are class TMI (insulated).  How do I figure out the capy?  The ORER listing doesn’t show the gallonage, just the weight capy.  Is there a relationship, or is the weight capy just the size of the journals (40-ton vs 50 ton) ?

From the 9/1955 Tank Car Capacities volume with capacities in gallons (dome capacity in gallons):

GATX 32443 - 8079(234)
-
GATX 32470 - 7193(180)
GATX 32478 - 7207(180)
GATX 32480 - 7194(180)
GATX 32486 - 7198(180)
-
GATX 32623 - 7185(173)
GATX 32624 - 7189(173)
GATX 32636 - 7187(173)
-
GATX 32641 - 7189(179)
GATX 32643 - 7191(179)
GATX 32645 - 7192(179)
-
GATX 32648 - 7190(174)
-
GATX 32665 - 7184(178)
GATX 32667 - 7192(178)
GATX 32672 - 7191(178)
-
GATX 32684 - 7187(177)
GATX 32685 - 7187(177)
GATX 32686 - 7191(177)
GATX 32687 - 7190(177)
GATX 32688 - 7190(177)
GATX 32692 - 7199(177)

All cars are listed as insulated and equipped with heater coils. None of these numbers appear in the 6/1936 Tank Car Capacities volume, suggesting that they were built after that date.


Re: GATX tank cars

Tony Thompson
 

Jeff Aley wrote:

Okay, now I’ve checked the ORER, and I see that all of these cars are class TMI (insulated).  How do I figure out the capy?  The ORER listing doesn’t show the gallonage, just the weight capy.  Is there a relationship, or is the weight capy just the size of the journals (40-ton vs 50 ton) ?

     No, because of variable cargo densities. But as a ROUGH guide only, 8000-gallon cars often had 40-ton trucks, thus 80,000-pound capacity, and 10,000-gallon cars had 50-ton trucks and 100,000 pounds. Be aware, there are plenty of exceptions. If the phosphorus load was mostly water blanket, these numbers would work, because they fit with liquids around the density of water.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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