Date   

Re: New question on an old technique

Tony Thompson
 

Greg Martin wrote:

Well I didn't want to jump in here as I don't regard this technique as a "weathering technique" but as I have always explained it as a shading technique.
 
If you note Tony never refers to this as a weathering technique, he just doesn't like it.
 
As for prototype photos, well I guess it just take a trained eye to see it, it exists on every surface. It is a technique that exhibits the way that light falls on a subject whether flat or uneven ( I think that this is the way I explained it in my article in Mainline Modeler and in more detail in Railroad Model Craftsman.

       No, I don't "just not like it." I think it is unprototypical. I do not say it can't exist, nor that it isn't subtle, only that I do NOT see it in prototype photo after photo. When I first saw the technique described, I thought it was something I had been missing, and started looking. But I still haven't found it, and the T&P box car photo does not convince me. Whatever small effect is there is far smaller than what the technique portrays.
        I have the greatest respect for Greg and his modeling, and for all his contributions to the Shake 'n' Take event at Cocoa Beach. But I part ways with him on this particular point.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: New question on an old technique

Greg Martin
 

Well I didn't want to jump in here as I don't regard this technique as a "weathering technique" but as I have always explained it as a shading technique.
 
If you note Tony never refers to this as a weathering technique, he just doesn't like it.
 
As for prototype photos, well I guess it just take a trained eye to see it, it exists on every surface. It is a technique that exhibits the way that light falls on a subject whether flat or uneven ( I think that this is the way I explained it in my article in Mainline Modeler and in more detail in Railroad Model Craftsman.
 
You need only go to this page to see an example of it, albeit this car is dead flat, but nonetheless:
 
 
Look closely, the shades are there on natures own painted canvas and it is a boxcar. The weathering is there as well look around the ladders and the rust as well. Plenty of color and its the illusion we are creating not the dirt.
 
The technique doesn't exclude weathering it just gives your eye a look at all the colors on the freight car and again exhibits the way light falls on the subject. This technique with my India Ink, colored pencil or graphite pencil to pique the shading to create depth that your layout room lighting is truly missing makes the technique work at least for me.
 
If  you don't like it don't use it, but you only need to follow the military modelers in all scales to see how it has evolved over the years.
 
As Tony will say YMM...
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Tim O' writes:

I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, but the fundamental rule of weathering seems to be that every car more than one month old is different from every other car! There's nothing worse than seeing a bunch of cars together that all have exactly the same weathering.

Tim O'


This technique makes a gorgeous model. Only problem I have with it, is that I have never seen a prototype photo which looks like the result of this technique. So after experimenting on a couple of cars, I quit using it.

Tony Thompson 


Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <randy@...> wrote :

"I beg to differ. S-4.1 (http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/S-4_1ProtoWheels.html) specifies the Standard (not an RP) for Fine:HO. This is the standard that we use for our "Code 88" Fine:HO weathered wheelsets. "

Randy,

You're CODE 88 wheels are .064/.069 wide with .014" deep flanges?

That sheet is the PROTO:87 standard.

Dennis


Re: T&P 82161 40-foot Single Door boxcar

Greg Martin
 

Ed,
 
As always you insight and help is greatly appreciated. You make my bash plausible.  I just wonder why at this point in time that they would elect to keep the original ends as other roads that continued to rebuild during this period elected to buy and replace the original ends. I just think it is the frugal attitude of "don't fix what ain't broke..."
 
My enthusiasm for Rebuilt USRA car both Single and Double Sheathed at times dominates my modeling. I love the evolution of freight cars particularly boxcars. Watching such a conservative group prevail in ingenious ways, but every so subtlety small changes at a time like baby steps.
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 5/18/2014 3:31:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
Greg,
The steel rebuilds in series T&P 82000-82786 received "S.R.E.M. Co.
Diagonal Panel" roofs according to the T&P diagram. All rebuilt cars
also received Apex running boards & brake steps. Hand brakes were Ajax
& Universal, however, the diagram doesn't specify how many of each or
any car number assignments of the two types. In-service photos are
pretty scarce. The photo of 82161 shows the "A" end. T&P 82450 rebuilt
7-52 had an Ajax hand brake.

The cars were originally double-sheathed auto cars built by ACF in late
1924 to early 1925 (T&P 50000-50999). From 1950 to 1953 T&P's shops at
Marshall, Texas, rebuilt 787 cars as all-steel and 10'-6" inside
height.

Sunshine Models offered a very nice kit (#9.1) of this steel rebuild.
More than 20 years ago I built the model. A number of years later I
discovered the error that the roof should have been diagonal panel
instead of the Murphy panel-type roof that came in the kit. I
subsequently removed the Murphy panel roof and replaced it with a
Branchline diagonal panel roof, which fit perfectly.

An article about these T&P box cars and all of T&P's earlier steel
rebuilds was published by the MPHS in "The Eagle" (Fall 2004, Volume
29, no. 3). I believe the issue is available from the MPHS Company
Store.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Ebay as a Photo Archive

Tim O'Connor
 

Ebay keeps a record of completed auctions for some period of time.
Currently for example, you can search the archive of 185,000+ railroad
photographs for whatever your heart desires. Sometimes you might get
lucky!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Photographs-/74724/i.html?LH_Complete=1

Gary Roe asked about Jerseyville & Eastern and I sent him two scans
I had previously snagged from Ebay auctions in August and October of
2013... I could no longer find those, so Ebay obviously doesn't keep
permanently accessible auction records. Get 'em while they're hot!

Anyway I've found Ebay to be a wonderful source for railroad photos,
since many of the sellers now post high resolution scans -- most of
them are "watermarked" but for the price, I'm not complaining.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Needle in a Haystack

Benjamin Hom
 

Scott Pitzer asked:
"Maybe rebuilds of USRA double sheathed boxcars (40 ton) with no change in IH (9'0")?  Did any road do some like that?"
Yes - ACL/C&WC and SL-SF.

Ben Hom


Re: Needle in a Haystack

Tim O'Connor
 

Heh heh heh -- how much of a reward?? I have two photos...

Tim "finally a hobby payday!" O'Connor

I recently learned of a little shortline in Jerseyville, Illinois called the Jerseyville & Eastern. Sometime between the Jan 1957 and Jan 1958 issues of the ORER, they acquired 3, 40 ton steel box cars. The IL was 40'-6, IH was 9'-0, and they had 6' doors. Reporting marks were "JE" and were numbered 100-102. It is not known if these were purchased second hand.

Any help with info would be appreciated, and a photo would be handsomely rewarded.

gary roe
quincy, illinois


Re: Needle in a Haystack

Scott Pitzer
 

Maybe rebuilds of USRA double sheathed boxcars (40 ton) with no change in IH (9'0")?  Did any road do some like that?
Scott Pitzer



-------- Original message --------
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Needle in a Haystack
From: "'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
CC: Re: [STMFC] Needle in a Haystack


 

With such an unusual cubic capacity, a search though a slightly earlier ORER would probably turn up just a few options. It's a bit tedious but shouldn't take more than a half hour. Maybe it will ring a bell with someone and that won't be necessary.
 
Eric N.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 7:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Needle in a Haystack

 

I recently learned of a little shortline in Jerseyville, Illinois called the Jerseyville & Eastern.  Sometime between the Jan 1957 and Jan 1958 issues of the ORER, they acquired 3, 40 ton steel box cars.  The IL was 40'-6, IH was 9'-0, and they had 6' doors.  Reporting marks were "JE" and were numbered 100-102.  It is not known if these were purchased second hand.

Any help with info would be appreciated, and a photo would be handsomely rewarded.

gary roe
quincy, illinois


Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

rhammill
 

A pessimist says the glass is half empty
An optimist says the glass is half full
An engineer says the glass it twice as large as it needs to be

Randy
--
Randy Hammill
True Line Trains
http://truelinetrains.com


Re: ACL 38485-40384

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

You'll have to go earlier than 1940. Not thee either.
 
Eric
 
 

I looked at the Valuation report also with its "various builders"; the ACL freight car diagrams from 1947 no longer show these cars. Need to find an earlier diagram book. ACL clearly lists the car builder on its diagram sheets.

Roger Hinman


On May 19, 2014, at 7:30 PM, 'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


The B&S order apparently refers to ACL 40385-41284 which apparently came along with ACL 13065-13164 auto cars as built by B&S. Both series are listed separately in the valuation report, leaving little doubt. The 900 unknown cars in ACL 38485-40384 appear to be missing from the Railway Age annual order summaries. Unfortunately, the valuation report lumps the earlier orders together.
 
Eric N.
 

The Railway Age Gazette for Jan 1914 showing cars built in 1913 shows an order or 900 box cars going to Barney & Smith.


Roger Hinman
On May 19, 2014, at 5:43 PM, 'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


ACL 38485-40384 (1900) were apparently built in 1913. 1000 were ordered from Mt. Vernon, the other 900 from an unknown source. Does anyone have built date or builder information from any car in this number range?
 
Thanks,
eric






Re: Needle in a Haystack

Bill Hirt <whirt@...>
 

Gary,

In the April 2014 St Louis Union Station News (published by the TRRA Historical Society), there just happens to be a multipage article about the Jerseyville & Eastern. The railroad was formed in 1941 within the city limits of Jerseyville from the remnants of the Chicago, Springfield and St. Louis Railroad (nee Chicago, Peoria and St. Louis Railroad). When formed in 1941, there were several customers: International Shoe Co, a sand and gravel ready-mix company, a bottle/bulk gas distributor and a gran elevator. The railroad's sole connection to the world was the Alton (GM&O after 1947).

International Shoe closed in 1958. By then the main customer was the elevator, Farmer's Elevator Inc.. The elevator was part of a local co-op that loaded corn, wheat and sometime soybeans from a 10,000 bushel elevator.

According to the article, the January 1958 ORER was the first listing of the cars. The main purpose was for corn and wheat loading. The cars were no longer shown in February 1963 ORER (after the era of this list). The railroad only had two employees, so it is a good bet that they were second or third hand cars. There is no information in article of their origin.

Bill Hirt

On 5/19/2014 6:08 PM, gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC] wrote:
I recently learned of a little shortline in Jerseyville, Illinois called the Jerseyville & Eastern.  Sometime between the Jan 1957 and Jan 1958 issues of the ORER, they acquired 3, 40 ton steel box cars.  The IL was 40'-6, IH was 9'-0, and they had 6' doors.  Reporting marks were "JE" and were numbered 100-102.  It is not known if these were purchased second hand.

Any help with info would be appreciated, and a photo would be handsomely rewarded.

gary roe
quincy, illinois


Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

devansprr
 

---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Dave Evans wrote:

Being an engineer, one saying is that if you put 12 engineers in a room, you'll find 13 opinions - because one of them will always be changing his mind....

     I know the joke (it's used for a number of ethnic groups also), but in my experience isn't true for engineers. The hard part is deciding exactly what is to be standardized, and the actual standard is then fairly easy to agree on. Most of my own standards experience is in aerospace, but I did serve on the AAR Research Committee for awhile, and among the things done during my tenure was work on standards for testing of rail and wheels. I would say the technical consensus was easy, once we decided what was and was not being standardized. Naturally those with a commercial stake in the outcome were more vociferous than those of us who were academics <g>. And BTW, we did not refer to NMRA wheel standards . . .


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

Tony,

I guess it depends on the field - in some fields the precision of standards can be pretty precise. I am more familiar with the thermal performance of big machines, where measurements of some key parameters are less precise - and admittedly where the commercial stakes can be significant (when a large steam-turbine-generator can produce a million dollars of electricity a day.) Then it can become a little more opinionated as there may be significant financial implications of small changes (When you are trying to prove the manufacturer fell short by $1,000/day, which can total millions over the life of the machine.)

I am seeing similar conflicts in wireless standards - where there are so many trades to be made.

Perhaps those are more akin to NMRA's RP for the weight of freight car models...

Dave Evans
 


Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

Mikebrock
 


 

Dennis Storzek writes:
 
"Sounds like you are looking for the dimension between the "theoretical frog point", and the "actual frog point","
 
No, no. For some reason I'm having trouble describing successfully the measurement I want. It is simply the distance from the theoretical frog point to the position where the closure rail bends to become the wing rail. It is essentially the "gap" where the wheel tries to drop into when it no longer is supported by the wing rail and before it finds the frog for support [ moving from moving points to the frog ]. The smaller the tread, the more tendency to drop. When I build a turnout, I build a single rail from the moving point to the end of the wing rail. I need to know where the "bend" position is. Using 0.053" for the flangeway, for a #6 frog [ 9° 32' ] this distance is 0.318". For a #8 frog, the distance is 0.425" and for a #10 frog, the distance is 0.53", for a #12 frog, the distance is 0.623", for a #14 frog, the distance is 0.747". The last 2 angles are 4° 46' and 4° 05' taken from the Railway Track & Structure Cyc.

Mike Brock






Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

A&Y Dave in MD
 

If we replaced engineers with scientists in those committees, we'd still not have any models that would work outside the lab they were created, but the elegance of those models would be astounding. TIC.

Dave Bott Jr, Ph.D.,
Son of Dave Bott, Sr., mechanical engineer

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On May 19, 2014, at 8:14 PM, "devans1@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Tony,

Being an engineer, one saying is that if you put 12 engineers in a room, you'll find 13 opinions - because one of them will always be changing his mind....

I know a manager who felt the quickest way to get consensus from his engineers was to schedule the final meeting in the most uncomfortable conference room he could find...

But then in the defense of engineers, several aspects of engineering are as much art as the normal rigors of mathematics and the physical sciences.

This becomes quite evident when reviewing the various publications and test reports from prototype STMFC engineers during the transition from plain journal bearings to roller bearings, which this group has discussed extensively....

In a perhaps similar manner, just as the modern model manufacturers are setting the "standard" for wheelsets, Timken set the standard for the modern freight car wheel bearing - in part by licensing the design to the other manufacturers.

Dave Evans



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Jon Miller wrote:

      Sure. I've served on engineering standards committees myself. But it usually takes some tough negotiation to get the job finished.
      Of course I realize Jon is being humorous. But I would not want there to be any misunderstanding about the reasonableness of engineers.  

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Evans wrote:

Being an engineer, one saying is that if you put 12 engineers in a room, you'll find 13 opinions - because one of them will always be changing his mind....

     I know the joke (it's used for a number of ethnic groups also), but in my experience isn't true for engineers. The hard part is deciding exactly what is to be standardized, and the actual standard is then fairly easy to agree on. Most of my own standards experience is in aerospace, but I did serve on the AAR Research Committee for awhile, and among the things done during my tenure was work on standards for testing of rail and wheels. I would say the technical consensus was easy, once we decided what was and was not being standardized. Naturally those with a commercial stake in the outcome were more vociferous than those of us who were academics <g>. And BTW, we did not refer to NMRA wheel standards . . .

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Wheelset and coupler choices.

devansprr
 

Tony,

Being an engineer, one saying is that if you put 12 engineers in a room, you'll find 13 opinions - because one of them will always be changing his mind....

I know a manager who felt the quickest way to get consensus from his engineers was to schedule the final meeting in the most uncomfortable conference room he could find...

But then in the defense of engineers, several aspects of engineering are as much art as the normal rigors of mathematics and the physical sciences.

This becomes quite evident when reviewing the various publications and test reports from prototype STMFC engineers during the transition from plain journal bearings to roller bearings, which this group has discussed extensively....

In a perhaps similar manner, just as the modern model manufacturers are setting the "standard" for wheelsets, Timken set the standard for the modern freight car wheel bearing - in part by licensing the design to the other manufacturers.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Jon Miller wrote:

      Sure. I've served on engineering standards committees myself. But it usually takes some tough negotiation to get the job finished. <g>
      Of course I realize Jon is being humorous. But I would not want there to be any misunderstanding about the reasonableness of engineers.  <vbg>

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: ACL 38485-40384

ROGER HINMAN
 

I looked at the Valuation report also with its "various builders"; the ACL freight car diagrams from 1947 no longer show these cars. Need to find an earlier diagram book. ACL clearly lists the car builder on its diagram sheets.

Roger Hinman


On May 19, 2014, at 7:30 PM, 'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


The B&S order apparently refers to ACL 40385-41284 which apparently came along with ACL 13065-13164 auto cars as built by B&S. Both series are listed separately in the valuation report, leaving little doubt. The 900 unknown cars in ACL 38485-40384 appear to be missing from the Railway Age annual order summaries. Unfortunately, the valuation report lumps the earlier orders together.
 
Eric N.
 

The Railway Age Gazette for Jan 1914 showing cars built in 1913 shows an order or 900 box cars going to Barney & Smith.


Roger Hinman
On May 19, 2014, at 5:43 PM, 'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


ACL 38485-40384 (1900) were apparently built in 1913. 1000 were ordered from Mt. Vernon, the other 900 from an unknown source. Does anyone have built date or builder information from any car in this number range?
 
Thanks,
eric






Re: Needle in a Haystack

Eric Lombard
 

Gary,

Here is what I have:

Assignment of RENO origin based on concurrence of physical features. There are no other matches found as of 10-2013. 2440+ cars RBLT in Springfield, MO, to steel siding in 4 Groups: B,C,D,E, keeping original numbers from double-sheathed USRA cars.

http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p01587.jpg#
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p01586.jpg#
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p00837.jpg#
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p01590.jpg#

 


http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/frisco-lines-st-louis-and-san-fransisco-rly-boxcar-128489;rad
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/frisco-lines-st-louis-and-san-fransisco-box-car-129462;rad

 


 


 



1957(1)    ...  Not listed in ORER.
195x          3  RENO out of  SL-SF 127002<>130499.
1958(1)      3  Listed as new addition in ORER.
1959              Underframes are 40 years old.
1960(10)    3

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Re: Needle in a Haystack

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

With such an unusual cubic capacity, a search though a slightly earlier ORER would probably turn up just a few options. It's a bit tedious but shouldn't take more than a half hour. Maybe it will ring a bell with someone and that won't be necessary.
 
Eric N.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 7:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Needle in a Haystack

 

I recently learned of a little shortline in Jerseyville, Illinois called the Jerseyville & Eastern.  Sometime between the Jan 1957 and Jan 1958 issues of the ORER, they acquired 3, 40 ton steel box cars.  The IL was 40'-6, IH was 9'-0, and they had 6' doors.  Reporting marks were "JE" and were numbered 100-102.  It is not known if these were purchased second hand.

Any help with info would be appreciated, and a photo would be handsomely rewarded.

gary roe
quincy, illinois


Re: ACL 38485-40384

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

The B&S order apparently refers to ACL 40385-41284 which apparently came along with ACL 13065-13164 auto cars as built by B&S. Both series are listed separately in the valuation report, leaving little doubt. The 900 unknown cars in ACL 38485-40384 appear to be missing from the Railway Age annual order summaries. Unfortunately, the valuation report lumps the earlier orders together.
 
Eric N.
 

The Railway Age Gazette for Jan 1914 showing cars built in 1913 shows an order or 900 box cars going to Barney & Smith.


Roger Hinman

On May 19, 2014, at 5:43 PM, 'Eric Neubauer' eaneubauer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


ACL 38485-40384 (1900) were apparently built in 1913. 1000 were ordered from Mt. Vernon, the other 900 from an unknown source. Does anyone have built date or builder information from any car in this number range?
 
Thanks,
eric


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