Date   

Weathering, was: Re: end of kits

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <cepropst@...> wrote: In part"

I think many folks are afraid to weather anything for fear of
wrecking their new masterpiece. I remember as a teenager weathering
a new kit with cigarette ashes and taking it back to the hobby shop
to show it off. Later, as I progressed to painting and decaling I
used weathering to cover up mistakes : ))

I love it Clark! Back in the Athearn "blue box" days of the late 1960's I was very pleased when Athearn introduced their steam era series of 40 ft. box cars but VERY frustrated with the fact that only one car number was offered. Fortunately for a number of roads offered
Athearn chose car numbers ending in a 3, 6, 8 of 9. With some encouragement from some of my friends in the Tech Model R.R. club it
was soon found that working carefully with a fine brush that the four numbers given could be fairly easily altered; a 3 to an 8, a 6 or 9 to a 0, an 8 to a 3 and so on. With the CPR being one of those roads we saw a lot of cars from in northern New England I soon had better than a half dozen "Canadian Pacific Spans the World" cars added to my fleet! Each car was weathered and in each case it was hard to see that the last, or next to last, digit in the car number had been changed. For me it was far easier, and looked better, than running around trying to find decals of the exact same font and size as what was on a given car. A little care in weathering can not only make a model look a LOT more realistic but can also hide a minor issue or two with no detrimental effects whatsoever. But I can still remember my joy when the Train Miniature line was introduced and greatloy added to the variety of rolling stock we had available at that time, never having particualrly cared for the Model Die Casting/Roundhouse
line of rolling stock in those years.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: end of kits

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hi Bruce,

Not so much an attempt to "pigeon-hole" as simply trying to be more specific since it seemed to me that is what was being sought though it simply wasn't being said.

Cordially, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Don,

Why? Why this need to pigeon-hole? Why can't we all be "modelers? That's the term I use, because that term is broad, inclusive and flexible. It simply implies some interest in reproducing something (real or imagined) in a miniature form. We certainly have lots of modifiers already to describe subsets such as "prototype modelers" but in the end we're all modelers. Looking forward, as modeling continues to evolve, being broadly inclusive is the way to grow the hobby...

Regards
Bruce
Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Don wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:

Many of our finest scratchbuilders, kitbashers and builders
on this list (you know who you are! :-)) have never weathered
anything!


Have you considered that the proper term for these folks might be
"model builders" as opposed to "modelers". When I think of a "modeler" what comes to mind is someone who tries to capture something in miniature as it is/was in real life most of the time, not the moment it was completed. Thus I would suggest that those who build but never
weather might better be called "model builders". I do not see it as in anyway diminishing what these folks accomplish but simply a way to better define the overall hobby.

Cordially, Don Valentine


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Re: Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Scott Pitzer
 

And check the photo to see if the roof is the original rectangular panel type, or a replacement diagonal panel. Door type could change too.
Scott Pitzer

On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:48 PM, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Brad,

Actually, for this particular car the "correct" answer is pretty simple:
"Anything goes, knock yourself out"

<snip>
By the early 1950s, the cars were a jumbled mess. Some were all brown, some had black roofs and ends, and some even had bare galvanized roofs with brown roof ribs. The NKP was generally pretty standard about how they painted their cars, but these things got a little bit of everything. It's best to pick a specific car from a specific year, and model that individual car!

<snip>
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



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Re: Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Brian Carlson
 

Ok, So then you are modeling 1953, Lettering should have the straight leg R
in Nickel Plate Road. Like Ray said "By the early 1950s, the cars were a
jumbled mess. Some were all brown, some had black roofs and ends, and some
even had bare galvanized roofs with brown roof ribs. The NKP was generally
pretty standard about how they painted their cars, but these things got a
little bit of everything. It's best to pick a specific car from a specific
year, and model that individual car!"



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brad
Andonian
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 12:12 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com; STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar





Dear Richard,<br/><br/>I am modeling cars from post war to '53. As always I
appreciate your help.<br/><br/>Brad andonian<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad


Re: Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Brad Andonian
 

Dear Richard,<br/><br/>I am modeling cars from post war to '53. As always I appreciate your help.<br/><br/>Brad andonian<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad


Re: RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage

npin53
 

I've made a few sets of patterns for the purpose of resin casting, and make the parts as true to the drawings and/or blue prints as possible. For example, if the prototype measurement is 4'6", then I try to make the pattern measure a scale 4'6".

Aaron


Re: RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Rio Grande Ltd <rgmodels@...>
 

I have been casting over 35 years and never have turned down a inquiry as to how to do something or what products I use. The more competition the better.

Eric Bracher
Rio Grande Models




As I’ve said before, I cannot recommend particular products because they’re trade secrets. – Al

-----Original Message-----
From: westerfieldalfred <westerfieldalfred@frontier.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:28 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)






Gene – I agree with Tom; it’s trial and error. For my primary production master I used a very hard rubber to reduce sink. However, the mold would shrink between the first and second casting and die at 4 or 5. So I would use the second and third castings to match for the production master pair of sides, etc. For production molds I found one that had very little shrink. Since I used heat to cure the castings in the molds to reduce turnaround time, and a controlled environment, there was little variation between castings until the molds were nearing there end-life when stretching of the molds from repeated casting removal became a factor. As I’ve said before, I cannot recommend particular products because they’re trade secrets. – Al

From: pullmanboss
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 12:54 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene, it depends on the rubber/resin combination. They're all different, and it will be on the materials' spec sheets. I use a low-shrink resin that's more expensive than what many use, and it and the rubber I use (Silicone Inc.'s GI-1000) have a combined shrinkage of 0.004" per inch. That's less than half a percent. A fast resin that cures hot will have much greater shrinkage. It may reach 200 degrees F when it "kicks" and cures, then shrink as it cools down to room temperature. (Coefficient of thermal expansion and all that.) The temperature(s) at which you make and use a mold can have a greater effect than mere resin & rubber shrinkage. Cured silicone rubber has a larger coefficient of expansion than cured urethane resin. If you make a mold in the winter when your room temp is 68 and use it during the summer when it's 80, the castings may well be bigger than the master.

Nothing is as simple as it looks....

Tom Madden

--- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

I've been thinking about my questions below. What I should have asked is, "Who can tell me about shrinkage and what should I know?"

--- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

Tom,
You mentioned shrinkage in the RTV rubber mold and resin casting processes. Others have mentioned shrinkage as well. It must be significant if it is mentioned so often.

Is there a given size or volume above which shrinkage matters?

Does the rubber mold shrink?

Do resin castings shrink a predictable amount or are we talking trial and error?

Is shrinkage expressed as a per cent?

Do various resin concoctions shrink at different rates or all the same?

Gene Green
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Re: Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Brad,

Actually, for this particular car the "correct" answer is pretty simple:
"Anything goes, knock yourself out"

Based on the photos that I have of the 13000-series cars, some were delivered in all-mineral brown, while others were delivered in the AMC-standard "all black with dark brown sides". Oh: and those cars had black doors too, which don't seem to have lasted very long in service.

Lettering changed by 1940, with the road dropping the large corporate initials on the left side of the door, and with the semi-regular use of the "swing tail R" road name to the right. The cars began getting metal running boards in the late 1940s.

By the early 1950s, the cars were a jumbled mess. Some were all brown, some had black roofs and ends, and some even had bare galvanized roofs with brown roof ribs. The NKP was generally pretty standard about how they painted their cars, but these things got a little bit of everything. It's best to pick a specific car from a specific year, and model that individual car!


 Let me know if you need photos of these cars; I've got 17 or so.

Regards,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



________________________________
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar


On Jul 24, 2013, at 2:52 PM, cereshill <cereshill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fellas,

I would appreciate advice on paint colors for this car.
Seeking paint colors for:
underbody
Roof
Roof walk

Sides and Ends

Thanks in advance,
Brad Andonian
Brad, to get a useful answer, you have to tell us what year the car was painted (not the year it was built, unless you're modeling the 1930s).  I'm going to assume that you're modeling the post-World-War-II period, in which case underbody and trucks, ends, roof, and running boards would be black, sides mineral red.  If my assumption is wrong, then all bets are off.  Freight cars were often in service for 30-40 years or more and paint and lettering commonly varied repeatedly over time, so you really have to be specific - the more specific the better - about the period you';re modeling.



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Yahoo! Groups Links





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RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Jack Mullen
 

Gene,

I'm coming from the same direction you are - thinking of producing parts primarily for my own use. My take-home on this is that it would be useful to pick some reference dimensions on the master and measure the same on each casting produced, keeping a table of the data. It would aid one's learning curve, if nothing else.

Jack Mullen

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Dennis,
Thanks for your input. Both you and Al W. mentioned changes in the size of the rubber mold over the course of its use. THAT is really a surprise. Your last sentence - "If you can't quantify it, you can't allow for it, so people build masters full size and live with the result." - may well sum up the situation in which I would find myself.

In this case and that of 3-D printing, why can't things be simple? VBG
Gene Green


Re: Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 24, 2013, at 2:52 PM, cereshill <cereshill@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fellas,

I would appreciate advice on paint colors for this car.
Seeking paint colors for:
underbody
Roof
Roof walk

Sides and Ends

Thanks in advance,
Brad Andonian
Brad, to get a useful answer, you have to tell us what year the car was painted (not the year it was built, unless you're modeling the 1930s). I'm going to assume that you're modeling the post-World-War-II period, in which case underbody and trucks, ends, roof, and running boards would be black, sides mineral red. If my assumption is wrong, then all bets are off. Freight cars were often in service for 30-40 years or more and paint and lettering commonly varied repeatedly over time, so you really have to be specific - the more specific the better - about the period you';re modeling.


Re: end of kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Bruce, I totally agree with you. I know some people who never build trains
but who do many other things -- lay track, implement incredibly complex wiring,
create beautiful scenery, etc -- and some who just add weathering and details.
It's all model railroading.

Tim O'

Don,

Why? Why this need to pigeon-hole? Why can't we all be "modelers? That's the term I use, because that term is broad, inclusive and flexible. It simply implies some interest in reproducing something (real or imagined) in a miniature form. We certainly have lots of modifiers already to describe subsets such as "prototype modelers" but in the end we're all modelers. Looking forward, as modeling continues to evolve, being broadly inclusive is the way to grow the hobby...

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL


Paint Question: NKP 1932 ara boxcar

Brad Andonian
 

Fellas,

I would appreciate advice on paint colors for this car.
Seeking paint colors for:
underbody
Roof
Roof walk

Sides and Ends

Thanks in advance,
Brad Andonian
Seattle


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Dennis,
Thanks for your input. Both you and Al W. mentioned changes in the size of the rubber mold over the course of its use. THAT is really a surprise. Your last sentence - "If you can't quantify it, you can't allow for it, so people build masters full size and live with the result." - may well sum up the situation in which I would find myself.

In this case and that of 3-D printing, why can't things be simple? VBG
Gene Green


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Thanks, Tom. Very interesting. I've seen "consumer" sized packaging of the rubber and resin for modelers but I don't recall specifications. Maybe inside the package, huh? May I assume that the specific rubber (Silicone Inc.'s GI-1000) mentioned must be purchased in "industrial" quantities?

In my situation I can "dial in" the desired room temperature and humidity. That came about merely because I didn't want wood bench work to expand and contract with changes in humidity, not that such changes are extreme in this area anyway.

Right now it appears that in my situation trial and error will likely get me to my goal sooner than anything else. I had no idea resin could get so hot in the curing process. One could get burned.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

Gene, it depends on the rubber/resin combination. They're all different, and it will be on the materials' spec sheets. I use a low-shrink resin that's more expensive than what many use, and it and the rubber I use (Silicone Inc.'s GI-1000) have a combined shrinkage of 0.004" per inch. That's less than half a percent. A fast resin that cures hot will have much greater shrinkage. It may reach 200 degrees F when it "kicks" and cures, then shrink as it cools down to room temperature. (Coefficient of thermal expansion and all that.) The temperature(s) at which you make and use a mold can have a greater effect than mere resin & rubber shrinkage. Cured silicone rubber has a larger coefficient of expansion than cured urethane resin. If you make a mold in the winter when your room temp is 68 and use it during the summer when it's 80, the castings may well be bigger than the master.

Nothing is as simple as it looks....

Tom Madden


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tom VanWormer <robsmom@...> wrote:
<snip> If you are going to produce resin kits, I would recommend you talk directly with your caster to get those answers. <snip>
No plan to produce kits. Just thinking of maybe making some parts, etc. for myself.

Gene Green


Ain't dead yet! Re: Re: end of kits

tyesac@...
 

I remember in the mid late 60's hobby shops were dropping trains since nobody was buying "train sets" anymore, they just wanted slot cars. Finding anything but basic model railroad supplies was dificult for awhile (remember styrofoam tunnels for scenery?) As long as there's enough clubs having open houses and open memberships, I think there will be a hobby for quite a long time yet. Maybe as long as it take to work through my stash of steam era freight car kits.

Tom Casey



of that since I started doing serious modeling in the early 70s. Yet today the variety of hobby products (including steam era freight cars) is greater than ever, and inflation-adjusted prices are not out of line with those of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

Robert Simpson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Re: end of kits

Dave Nelson
 

The Hobby is changing. It's always changing.

IMO a fair number of people do not understand one big way it is changing: a
lot of model railroads have given up on physical models and have migrated to
virtual models in simulators. Now I know a lot of you are inclined to say
"well that's semi-interesting Dave, but that's not my hobby" but guys, it
is; it's just a different scale, it uses different tools, but the rail
knowledge and basic tasks are the same. We have all the same interests in
railroad technology and history as anyone on this board. We buy the same
books. We strive to learn the same arcane knowledge. We talk about the
same railroads, equipment, and history. We just don't buy and use the same
products.

As an example, I own an internet forum for people interested in train sims,
with an emphasis on content creation -- 3d cad and art for locomotives &
freight equipment. I have almost 2000 members from about 60 countries.
Roughly 175 people stop by every day and about 100 messages are posted each
day. I'm running a poll right now: How old are you? So far 29% had said
under 30. IMO what they're likely to have in common is a small budget and
no space. Once active in what we call V-Scale, is the appeal of physical
model railroading ever going to be greater than the burden of money spent
and space used? Considering that V-Scale is virtually free and measured in a
few square inches, I have great doubts it will. A few quotes from
comments appended to the poll:

"I still admired and aspired to have a layout someday...[but]... virtual
simming has given me EVERYTHING I ever wanted."
"... once I discovered virtual RRing, I've never looked back..."
" Sure, I was over 50 when I found the sim and there is nothing that I could
think of that would cause me to go back to physical model railroading
again."
" At the age of 52, I discovered MSTS and learned to reskin in 2005 and I
never looked back."
" Not far into the effort I realized [train sims] had no space
constraints... w/ [train sims] I could have it all."

My point in describing this is simply to point out that, in the ever
evolving form of Model Railroading, there is yet another splinter group
which results in yet again fewer potential customers for existing product
manufacturers. IMO it has to have an effect of some sort on either prices
or product availability... and there is, again IMO, no reason to think
things will revert to the way it used to be.

As they say, you can choose your opinions but you cannot choose your facts:
some model railroaders get their "fix" to a very satisfactory degree w/
V-Scale... and they are not buying kits or RTR... or anything else for that
matter. IMO that has to count for something in these sorts of "our world
is ending" debates and pretending it's of no concern to... say how many
scale freight cars in my scale are in the market today), again IMO, "just
whistling past the graveyard".

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
geodyssey

I consider this subject to be a subset of the "The End of the hobby in near"
argument. I've been hearing variations of that since I started doing
serious modeling in the early 70s.


Re: end of kits

Bruce Smith
 

Don,

Why? Why this need to pigeon-hole? Why can't we all be "modelers? That's the term I use, because that term is broad, inclusive and flexible. It simply implies some interest in reproducing something (real or imagined) in a miniature form. We certainly have lots of modifiers already to describe subsets such as "prototype modelers" but in the end we're all modelers. Looking forward, as modeling continues to evolve, being broadly inclusive is the way to grow the hobby...

Regards
Bruce
Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Don wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Many of our finest scratchbuilders, kitbashers and builders
on this list (you know who you are! :-)) have never weathered
anything!


Have you considered that the proper term for these folks might be
"model builders" as opposed to "modelers". When I think of a "modeler" what comes to mind is someone who tries to capture something in miniature as it is/was in real life most of the time, not the moment it was completed. Thus I would suggest that those who build but never
weather might better be called "model builders". I do not see it as in anyway diminishing what these folks accomplish but simply a way to better define the overall hobby.

Cordially, Don Valentine


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

I've been thinking about my questions below. What I should have asked is, "Who can tell me about shrinkage and what should I know?"
Gene,

It's been a very long time since I've had to deal with this, and you've gotten some good answers already, but I'll throw out some thoughts...

All the "industrial grade" mold and casting materials will list their average shrinkage in their tech literature, but this is usually not the case for hobby grade materials. As I recall, shrinkage for each material was <1%, but this can add up when using multiple generations of cast sub-masters.

The typical hobbyist makes a mold from a pattern, compares a part cast in the mold with the original master, can't see any real difference, and says, "the process has no shrink." They don't log the dimensions over the life of the mold, so never see the variance that is possible.

As I recall, most of the mold making materials expressed their shrinkage as as a value at a specific time interval after the mold was made. That is not to say that the material stops shrinking, far from it. I learned early on not to try to save rubber molds; make them, then run them to death over the normal production cycle, and store the parts.

Certain solvents also cause certain RTV rubbers to swell, which causes the mold cavity to grow in size. This was definitely a problem when using the polyester resins that were used to produce early resin kits. I ran some test parts early on, cycling the mold as fast as the parts solidified, and found the third part was one scale foot longer than the first. Given the part was 26 scale feet long, that's almost 4% GROWTH. The polyurethane resins everyone adopted shortly after are not as bad, but I've always been suspicious of Alumilite, since it has volatile fractions that tend to boil off under vacuum.

Given all the variables, it's not so much that the process has no shrink as that the shrinkage is indeterminate. If you can't quantify it, you can't allow for it, so people build masters full size and live with the result.

Dennis Storzek


Weathering, was: Re: end of kits

Clark Propst
 

I’ve only even this thread a passing glance, but thought Tim’s email about ‘top’ modelers not weathering was interesting.
Seems with RTR stuff its easy to take the model out of the box, place it on the layout and forget about it saying I’ll weather it later...If you don’t have a layout, why are you buying RTR stuff in the first place? I call those guys ‘consumers’ <VBG>
I think weathered stuff looks out of place on a “plywood” layout while unweathered equipment looks odd on a scenicked railroad. Of course, if you are just into building models – How would military models look in a diorama right out of the box? But our completed models end up on shelves, not in dioramas...Why is that?

I think many folks are afraid to weather anything for fear of wrecking their new masterpiece. I remember as a teenager weathering a new kit with cigarette ashes and taking it back to the hobby shop to show it off. Later, as I progressed to painting and decaling I used weathering to cover up mistakes : ))

As a prototype layout builder weathering rolling stock is just place of the game. What’s your game?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

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