Date   

Re: An alternative body filler putty

mark
 

Hello Group ,

     I have been following this topic since the start.I have a question concerning filling holes that were drilled and tapped.I have a flat car that I had a friend drill and tap for me.(he was the only person I know that had a drill press).Some how he managed to drill and tap both holes at an angle.I need to fill the holes so that I can re-drill and tap the holes,and I am looking for any ideas and/or guidance on this matter.

   Thank you in advance for any help on this,

                                                  Mark McCoy   tavwot@...



--- In stmfc@..., <smokeandsteam@...> wrote:

I found this out by accident when trying to strip paint from an assembled whitemetal kit. A strong solution of caustic soda unglues many epoxies quite well.

On the other hand I wouldn't recommend drinking it unless the martinis have completely lost their thrill...


Aidrian




On 9/09/2013, at 1:50 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

hs later, I was able to remove the lead sticks fairly easily.    I left the sticks in the alcohol and eventually was able to wipe them off with no alcohol left on them.  So, while it takes a fairly long time, and probably only applies to metal to metal joints, one CAN get epoxy to give up its grip.




Re: Bowser PRR H30

Eric Mumper
 

Rich,

Thank you very much for the reply and the link. Just to be a bit of a pain on this, what would be a safe bet for the as delivered trucks on the early (1935 built) H30? If I remember correctly the ASF A-3 had not been developed by 1935. Here are some guesses as to prototype vs. model truck from your list:

2E-F2A - Bowser Crown
2E-F10 - Tahoe 108?
2E-F11,F14 - P2K National B-1
2E-F12,F15 - Tahoe 107? or P2K AAR

Eric Mumper

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:

In the 1950 list of PRR trucks PRR tracing C422800-E the following were used on the H30

2E-F2A Crown with Andrews steel cast frame 5'10 axle spacing C-E spring pack

2E-F10 double truss s.c. 5'8 C-E spring pack

2E-F11 National s.c. 5'6 C-5E spring pack

2E-F12 Young s.c. 5'8 C-5E springs

2E-F14 National s.c. 5'6 C-5E springs

2E-F15 Young s.c. 5'8 C-5E springs

2E-F22 ASF A-3 ride control 5'8 C spring pack

The ASF A-3 is accurate

For more information on PRR trucks see http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html


Rich Orr









-----Original Message-----
From: mumpseee <eric.mumper@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 7, 2013 1:01 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Bowser PRR H30


Group,

Just received the new Bowser PRR H30 cars. Very nice. Will leave accuracy
comments to those who know although I did peruse TKM 8 since I see what appears
to be an issue. The model is 254266 showing New 5-35 in the CK scheme. I model
October, 1954 and will do the appropriate reweigh date. The trucks are ASF A-3.
These would not have been the original trucks from what I can tell. Anybody
know what trucks should be under this car? Thanks.

Eric Mumper
eric.mumper@...


Re: open grid roof walks

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Patience Young Skywalker!
Let us get the test runs sorted out.
All in good time.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brennan <brennan8@...> wrote:

At 04:23 PM 9/8/2013, Tony Thompson wrote:
<snip> the Apex grid bars are 1 inch high. The Plano etched board is
0.0085" which in HO is 3/4-inch. The Kadee, to cite one of the best
plastic ones out there, is 0.0205" or more than 1-3/4 inch.
So: Next generation for modelers is laser-cut 0.012 stainless???
Where do we send our orders? (or WHEN???)


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Re: An alternative body filler putty

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

I found this out by accident when trying to strip paint from an assembled whitemetal kit. A strong solution of caustic soda unglues many epoxies quite well.

On the other hand I wouldn't recommend drinking it unless the martinis have completely lost their thrill...


Aidrian




On 9/09/2013, at 1:50 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

hs later, I was able to remove the lead sticks fairly easily.    I left the sticks in the alcohol and eventually was able to wipe them off with no alcohol left on them.  So, while it takes a fairly long time, and probably only applies to metal to metal joints, one CAN get epoxy to give up its grip.




Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Greg Martin
 

 tony@... writes:

" I agree, and the "too thin" product is CLOSEST to correct thickness. I fail to understand why this set of measurements has to be repeated every year or so, Apparently it is embedded in the consciousness of some modelers that etched metal is "too thin for correct size" -- and then they recommend Kadee, or worse, other brands. Time to face the physical facts, gentlemen or ladies.

Tony Thompson"
 
Not that I don't use them I do but when the lacy-ness of the grid is thicker than the running board there is a visual problem that detracts from scale effectiveness. The Tichy can be made thinner and I have done that more than once, but you have to be careful removing it from the masking tape.
 
Bill Welch mentions the KADEE running boards and in my most humble opinion they may be thicker but that thickness is a small sacrifice for the lacy appearance of the APEX running boards. By far my favorite APEX running board on the market.
 
My criteria include that it must stand up to handling (the Tichy once thinned doesn't perform well here except for my own personal handling and etched have issue here as well), it has to be see through (there are exceptions), and they must represent the running board they are imitating... in the case here APEX. Plano has done a good job.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
       


Re: An alternative body filler putty

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Denny, who we have not heard enough from lately, said:

 

[Epoxies} all can serve as a fillers, inasmuch as they do not shrink, are sandable, and when cured are all but impervious to all solvents.

 

 

Well, not to ALL solvents.  But you have to be patient, very patient.  If you look at the cans on epoxy paints or on furniture that has polyurethane finishes, there will be a warning about putting alcohol on the finish.  Now, clearly your martini isn’t going to lift the finish, but prolonged exposure* will cause issues.  Some time ago, I had epoxied some lead sticks I had cast inside . . . something brass, and I can’t recall what it was . . . and regretted it.  Since I wasn’t in a hurry to finish this particular project, I put it in a jar filled with 90% alcohol, and set it aside.  Several months later, I was able to remove the lead sticks fairly easily.    I left the sticks in the alcohol and eventually was able to wipe them off with no alcohol left on them.  So, while it takes a fairly long time, and probably only applies to metal to metal joints, one CAN get epoxy to give up its grip.



Schuyler

[Who is aware that polyurethanes and epoxies are not the same thing, BTW]

 

*that’s prolonged exposure of the martini to the finish.  Prolonged exposure of yourself to martinis may cause issues too, but those are outside the scope of this list, I believe.  Maybe not.  Mike?  Ruling please?

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anspach Denny
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: An alternative body filler putty

 

 

2-Ton Epoxy is a good conventional, if pricey product (because of its small packaging). Other packaged similar slow-setting epoxies should serve just as well. They all can serve as a fillers, inasmuch as they do not shrink, are sandable, and when cured are all but impervious to all solvents. A distinct disadvantage as a filler is that when cured, they are usually much harder than the substrate, i.e. styrene, resin, or wood, so that for the unwary modeler who sands away, the result is commonly smooth founded mounds of epoxy filler rising proud above surrounding fields of destroyed surface detailing and sanding-induced shallow excavations.

This latter effect can be somewhat ameliorated by "lightening" the epoxy mix by adding in vinyl microballoons- also a pricey alternative for those just doing very small work. Marine epoxy filler is made up of this or a similar mix.

Before epoxy cures, it can be thinned, and tools cleaned with lacquer thinner- not always a solvent that would be safe to use with styrene.

Treat 5-minute epoxy like the plague. It is an expedient product that has little to recommend it except for desperate emergencies. It crystalizes and fails.

My experience with epoxies is extensive and long, having used a wide variety of them in substantial roles over the years in the restoration of fine wood boats. That said, I have found little use for these otherwise extraordinary adhesives in my railroad modeling, because other products consistently serve me better. In the case of filler or a surfacing putty: Squadron Putty. It is not perfect, but day in and day out, on balance, it serves well for our purposes.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: open grid roof walks

Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
 

At 04:23 PM 9/8/2013, Tony Thompson wrote:
<snip> the Apex grid bars are 1 inch high. The Plano etched board is 0.0085" which in HO is 3/4-inch. The Kadee, to cite one of the best plastic ones out there, is 0.0205" or more than 1-3/4 inch.
So: Next generation for modelers is laser-cut 0.012 stainless???
Where do we send our orders? (or WHEN???)


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Tim O'Connor
 


OTOH, replacement OPEN GRID walkways for the Atlas, Red Caboose,
and Intermountain tank cars -- that would be sweet. After 1950 I
think they stopped being built with solid walkways.

As Pierre said you could do these with bendable etchings, for
appearance (tank cars walkways are much thicker than box car
running boards) and also for strength and stiffness.

Plano made parts for tank car but they were not bendable and are
much too thin for tank cars.

Tim O'


At 9/8/2013 07:23 PM Sunday, you wrote:


Pierre Oliver wrote:

Current etched running boards are indeed too thin, compared to the prototype.
      Nope. As Tim O'C corre4ctly stated, the Apex grid bars are 1 inch high. The Plano etched board is 0.0085" which in HO is 3/4-inch. The Kadee, to cite one of the best plastic ones out there, is 0.0205" or more than 1-3/4 inch. As Tim says, it is close to DOUBLE the prototype size.

Having said all that, for a metal running board I prefer a too thin item over a too thick item. Just my opinion.
       I agree, and the "too thin" product is CLOSEST to correct thickness. I fail to understand why this set of measurements has to be repeated every year or so, Apparently it is embedded in the consciousness of some modelers that etched metal is "too thin for correct size" -- and then they recommend Kadee, or worse, other brands. Time to face the physical facts, gentlemen or ladies.

Tony Thompson 


Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Tony Thompson
 

Pierre Oliver wrote:

Current etched running boards are indeed too thin, compared to the prototype. 

      Nope. As Tim O'C corre4ctly stated, the Apex grid bars are 1 inch high. The Plano etched board is 0.0085" which in HO is 3/4-inch. The Kadee, to cite one of the best plastic ones out there, is 0.0205" or more than 1-3/4 inch. As Tim says, it is close to DOUBLE the prototype size.

Having said all that, for a metal running board I prefer a too thin item over a too thick item. Just my opinion.

       I agree, and the "too thin" product is CLOSEST to correct thickness. I fail to understand why this set of measurements has to be repeated every year or so, Apparently it is embedded in the consciousness of some modelers that etched metal is "too thin for correct size" -- and then they recommend Kadee, or worse, other brands. Time to face the physical facts, gentlemen or ladies.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

So part of the issue with etched running boards is a limitation of the process.
Current etched running boards are indeed too thin, compared to the prototype. When designing an etched running board, the grid cannot be thinner than the thickness of the sheet material. So if you desire the lacy look of an Apex design you have to sacrifice thickness.
Some people have tried to deal with this by designing a running board that is 2 pieces and you fold over onto itself. The new S scale CNR 8 hatch reefers use this approach.
Experiments are underway right now to try a slightly different approach to the design process and get correct thickness running boards. Stay tuned.
Typical white or yellow brass is far too soft for this application. Stainless steel or nickel silver has been used for it's resistance to kinking and Phosphor bronze is also a good choice.
Having said all that, for a metal running board I prefer a too thin item over a too thick item. Just my opinion.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@... wrote:

I have used the Tichy running boards see my article in the Zephyr of the
Sioux City Dressed beef NX reefer. I know Stand Rydarowicz swears by them.
They can be trimmed easily to shorter lengths with no issue.

I do thin mine down by turning it upside down on masking tape and sanding
it slightly thinker and beveling the edge.

I have and use some Etched running board (still don't get why they are not
brass) but in profile they are too thin.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


_ed_mines@..._ (mailto:ed_mines@...) writes:

They are a little bit difficult to attach & paint, they may detach/bend
due to differences in thermal expansion.



Plastic ones can be solvent welded & are a lot cheaper.
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

What's bad about etched running boards?
Pierre Oliver


New Haven paint and stenciling applied in May 1955

Bill Welch
 

In the Walter Frost Collection at the Vancouver Library there are three 1937 type New Haven boxcar photos apparently painted in May 1955. Two of the photos are slightly different views of NH 36141 in what appears to be a boxcar red color with a large "NH" to the left of the door while dimensional and weight data, reporting marks, and car number are all to the right of the door. The "N" in the "NH" is barely visible due to the film I am sure. NH 36415 appears to be a black car and the "NH" is all stenciled in white.

Can someone please educate me as to the use of the parallel schemes? I assume there was some sort of marketing or publicity campaign involved. Did IMWX ever do either scheme or has Red Caboose or InterMountain ever offered them? Thank you!

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930



Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Tim O'Connor
 

Greg

I've posted before -- an APEX running board is 1" thick, and the closest in scale
to this is an etched stainless steel running board. The Kadee running board is 100%
oversize in thickness. YMMV.

Stainless steel is stiffer than brass, and that's the reason. Brass parts deform easily.

Tim O'


  > I have and use some Etched running board (still don't get why they are not brass) but in profile they are too thin.
    > Greg Martin  


Re: Time Freight, Red Ball Freight, Penalty

earlyrail
 

Fri Sep 6, 2013 2:35 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
richtownsend2002

The third is a solid orange rectangle. It says "PENALTY" and then has a blank for filling in "Home Route."

My fundamental question is how would these cards have been used? What would have been the difference between a time freight and a red ball freight? Was the "PENALTY" card used to say "send us our car back or you will pay?"

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
I'll take a stab at this one.

Back when perdiem for freight cars was starting there was an increasing penalty for hanging on to empty cars. Before perdiem the cars were on a mileage basis and roads would not send empty cars home since it would cost them the mileage fees.

I have some reference somewhere and will dig in need be.

Howard Garner
modeling 1905


Re: NYC Boxcar question

Douglas Harding
 

Thanks Eric. Very helpful.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Tony Thompson
 

Michael Watnoski wrote:

Another product similar to canopy cement is Alene's Tacky glue. It may be more readily available. Wal-Mart also has pack of 5 different versions of this in sample size bottles.

      Similar, yes, but not the same. For one thing, it's not as strong when fully dry.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Yes I have.
And my preference remains with etched.
I concede that the Plano etched running boards can present challenges for mounting, but the variety of flexible adhesives available can solve most issues.
And we're working on a variation of etched running boards that are the correct thickness and nice fine patterns. Stay tuned.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@... wrote:

Lumpy? Oversized? vs. smooth and undersized? And in some cases the wrong
visual profile.

Pierre have you actually tried them?

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


In a message dated 9/8/2013 12:16:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pierre.oliver@... writes:





True but they're lumpy and oversized.
Pierre Oliver


Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Greg Martin
 

Lumpy? Oversized? vs. smooth and undersized? And in some cases the wrong visual profile.
 
Pierre have you actually tried them?
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 9/8/2013 12:16:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, pierre.oliver@... writes:


True but they're lumpy and oversized.
Pierre Oliver


Re: Tichy open grid roof walks

Greg Martin
 

I have used the Tichy running boards see my article in the Zephyr of the Sioux City Dressed beef NX reefer. I know Stand Rydarowicz swears by them.  They can be trimmed easily to shorter lengths with no issue.
 
I do thin mine down by turning it upside down on masking tape and sanding it slightly thinker and beveling the edge.
 
I have and use some Etched running board (still don't get why they are not brass) but in profile they are too thin.
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
ed_mines@... writes:

They are a little bit difficult to attach & paint, they may detach/bend due to differences in thermal expansion.

Plastic ones can be solvent welded & are a lot cheaper. 

--- In STMFC@..., wrote:

What's bad about etched running boards?
Pierre Oliver



Re: An alternative body filler putty

Thomas Baker
 

Denny,

You mention the Squadron products. There are two that I know of: Squadron Green and Squadron White. I have tried both but have found Squadron Green more useful. What is your view? I have found, however, that Squadron Green can shrink. I have also used Dr. Mike's granular filler. After filling the gap, hole, or crack, one adds the granular filler, then a dapple of Testor's glue or ACC. The stuff sands down if one adds too much of the granular filler, but it does seem to work. Thanks very much for your input about 5-minute epoxy.

One other question: I have three F&C kits waiting to be assembled but am not sure what a suitable glue would be for the resin parts. Do you have a recommendation?

Tom Baker
________________________________________
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Anspach Denny [danspachmd@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:25 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: An alternative body filler putty

2-Ton Epoxy is a good conventional, if pricey product (because of its small packaging). Other packaged similar slow-setting epoxies should serve just as well. They all can serve as a fillers, inasmuch as they do not shrink, are sandable, and when cured are all but impervious to all solvents. A distinct disadvantage as a filler is that when cured, they are usually much harder than the substrate, i.e. styrene, resin, or wood, so that for the unwary modeler who sands away, the result is commonly smooth founded mounds of epoxy filler rising proud above surrounding fields of destroyed surface detailing and sanding-induced shallow excavations.

This latter effect can be somewhat ameliorated by "lightening" the epoxy mix by adding in vinyl microballoons- also a pricey alternative for those just doing very small work. Marine epoxy filler is made up of this or a similar mix.

Before epoxy cures, it can be thinned, and tools cleaned with lacquer thinner- not always a solvent that would be safe to use with styrene.

Treat 5-minute epoxy like the plague. It is an expedient product that has little to recommend it except for desperate emergencies. It crystalizes and fails.

My experience with epoxies is extensive and long, having used a wide variety of them in substantial roles over the years in the restoration of fine wood boats. That said, I have found little use for these otherwise extraordinary adhesives in my railroad modeling, because other products consistently serve me better. In the case of filler or a surfacing putty: Squadron Putty. It is not perfect, but day in and day out, on balance, it serves well for our purposes.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: model paint in aerosol cans

Kenneth Montero
 

Jack,

Thank you. I overlooked the dropdown menu at the top of the page.

Ken Montero



From: "moonmuln"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:02:11 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: model paint in aerosol cans

 

Ken,
Choose the Online Catalog, then select Paints/Cements from the dropdown menu of categories. If there's a color chart anywhere, I haven't found it.

And this is Yahoo weird, now the Reply function is working as it used to, starting with a copy of the note replied to.

Jack Mullen

--- In STMFC@..., va661midlo@... wrote:
>
> Jack,
>
> Where is it on their website? I could not find it.
>
> Ken Montero
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "moonmuln"
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 7:28:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] model paint in aerosol cans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ed,
> Star Line paint is made by/for and sold by P-B-L. www.p-b-l.com Good stuff.
> Jack Mullen
>
> Ed Mines wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your reply. Where can I get them? Who's the manufacturer?
>
> >> Ed,
> >> Try your friends at Star Brand Paints. You are looking for Sunburnt >> BCR & Weathered Black
> >> Tom VanWormer
>
> And concerning Neo, now it seems that when I do a REPLY, Yahoo doesn't copy the previous text into the response box as it used to. Oh well, can do a cut-paste, as I did above.
> Jack
>

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