Date   

Newby modeling request

JoelDee
 

I request the groups assistance. The following is my first attempt to build list:
UP and other tank cars
UP and other stock cars
UP gondolas
Which does the group believe would be the first place to start with an untested 50 year old skill level such as mine? A suggestion as to a kit would be appreciated as well.

Oh, one other question. On my UP videos, it was stated that UP always placed the stock cars behind the tender so as to attach a hose to water down the straw to prevent fires from flying coals. Does anyone know of a picture showing the hook-up detail or know where I can find an explaination as to how this was done?

Thank you in advance, Joel


American Cyanamid Covered Hopper CYX 174 - Info Needed

Carl
 

Picked up an interesting photo at The Beach of American Cyanamid 70-ton covered hopper CYX 174. It was taken 11-26-48. Build date of 3-29 and a capacity of 2130 cu. ft.

I've copied below portions of two earlier posts. This car would appear to be among those "other" LO cars mentioned in the post copied directly below (since the number was not among those cited in the ORER) and coincides with the description provided at the post copied second below.

The car is obviously a covered hopper with open ends and has a 7-panel fully rectangular side.

Can anyone provide further information on this car or type of car?

Best Wishes--Carl

Carl G. Camann
Atlanta, GA

***************************************************************

(RESPONSE TO POSTING COPIED BELOW)

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, LOUIS WHITELEY wrote:

The October 1948 ORER lists these CYX cars as "Special tank (A.A.R. Mech. Designation LO) cars . . . 151 to 157 inclusive, 159 and 161. Inside dimensions length 33 ft. 7 in. width 9 ft., height 12 ft. 3 in. (capacity 1,800 cubic ft., 140,000 pounds)". There were some other series of LO cars with different dimensions.

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ

*****************************************************************

(ORIGINAL POSTING)


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: January 16, 2010
Subject: American Cyanamid Car CYX 154 - Info Needed

While looking through a friends photo collection from the late 1930's I came across a car from the American Cyanamid company labeled for Nitrogen Products. The car number is CYX 154 and the photo was taken in Syracuse, NY on November 24, 1937...

Some additional information on the car. It has no side doors but there is a full roof walk so I believe it to be some type of covered hopper. I have to question that though because there is no evidence of bottom gates either. It is the same height as an adjacent boxcar but the sides of the car are lower and partially cover the top of the trucks.

Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Ed Olszewski
Syracuse, NY


Re: D&RGW 60200 series (ex-65100 series)

Richard Townsend
 

I meant to say that the widely-spaced rivets ON THE RIGHT SIDE of the doors appear to be missing.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: richtownsend <richtownsend@netscape.net>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2013 11:41 am
Subject: D&RGW 60200 series (ex-65100 series)



I have a question regarding the D&RGW 60200 series (ex-65100 series) automobile cars. These are the pre-WWII PSC cars with the unique 6-foot and 9-foot doors. The side panels to the left of the doors have rows of closely-spaced rivets where the panels overlap. Outboard of these are rows of more widely-spaced rivets, presumably attaching the side sheets to the cars' internal structure. Here's my problem: in the few photos of these cars I have seen the closely-spaced rivet rows are obvious, but eh widely-spaced ones seem to be absent. At first I thought this was just a trick of the lighting, but closer examination of the photos leads me to question this. Does anyone know what the real situation is? Here's an example from the fallen flags site: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/drgw/drgw60318csa.jpg

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: MILW 592025 - 593024 Auto Box

Ken Roth
 

A belated thank you to everyone who posted info on these MILW box cars. As usual, the sum total of everyone's input has clarified my knowledge of these cars. I do want to point out that I made an error in my reading of the 1950 ORER. This series does indeed have an end door, BUT as has been pointed out, it is a LUMBER DOOR. My eye just did not follow the right row! I also appreciated being alerted to the kit errors in the side panels.

I plan to go ahead building the car, replacing the roof with a Hutchins, and adding the lumber door. I'll live with the issue with the sides.

Thanks Again,
Ken Roth


Re: MILW 592025 - 593024 Auto Box

Ken Roth
 

A belated thank you to everyone who posted info on these MILW box cars. As usual, the sum total of everyone's input has clarified my knowledge of these cars. I do want to point out that I made an error in my reading of the 1950 ORER. This series does indeed have an end door, BUT as has been pointed out, it is a LUMBER DOOR. My eye just did not follow the right row! I also appreciated being alerted to the kit errors in the side panels.

I plan to go ahead building the car, replacing the roof with a Hutchins, and adding the lumber door. I'll live with the issue with the sides.

Thanks Again,
Ken Roth


Re: MILW 592025 - 593024 Auto Box

Ken Roth
 

A belated thank you to everyone who posted info on these MILW box cars. As usual, the sum total of everyone's input has clarified my knowledge of these cars. I do want to point out that I made an error in my reading of the 1950 ORER. This series does indeed have an end door, BUT as has been pointed out, it is a LUMBER DOOR. My eye just did not follow the right row! I also appreciated being alerted to the kit errors in the side panels.

I plan to go ahead building the car, replacing the roof with a Hutchins, and adding the lumber door. I'll live with the issue with the sides.

Thanks Again,
Ken Roth


D&RGW 60200 series (ex-65100 series)

Richard Townsend
 

I have a question regarding the D&RGW 60200 series (ex-65100 series) automobile cars. These are the pre-WWII PSC cars with the unique 6-foot and 9-foot doors. The side panels to the left of the doors have rows of closely-spaced rivets where the panels overlap. Outboard of these are rows of more widely-spaced rivets, presumably attaching the side sheets to the cars' internal structure. Here's my problem: in the few photos of these cars I have seen the closely-spaced rivet rows are obvious, but eh widely-spaced ones seem to be absent. At first I thought this was just a trick of the lighting, but closer examination of the photos leads me to question this. Does anyone know what the real situation is? Here's an example from the fallen flags site: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/drgw/drgw60318csa.jpg

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: Pennsy X43b

Tim O'Connor
 

The X43b photo scans I have appear to show ASF A-3 trucks.

Tim O'

I'm getting a Branchline PRR X43b kit I'd like to make into car number 86162. Are there any detail part changes (RB, HB, trucks, etc) I need to make?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Gene

Reminds me of the early Youngstown "flush door" terminology that was
quickly dropped from ads and equipment diagrams, replaced with "plug door".
The SRE ad in the 1953 CBC mentions the round-corner and W-section corner
posts as well. Round-corner is more representative I guess because not all
round-corner ends used W-section corner posts. (PS-1's used Z section posts
because they use butt welds instead of riveted overlay.)

Tim O'Connor

Standard Railway Equipment Manufacturing Company's own ad in the January 4, 1941 issue of Railway Age says "The Round Corner Dreadnaught End When Used with W-Section Corner Posts . . . " That should give fuel to the fires of both the 'round corner' and 'w-section corner post' camps.

While collecting Dreadnaught ads the earliest 'round corner' ad found so far is this 1941 ad.

Gene Green


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jan 19, 2013, at 10:25 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

And what 'facts' are in dispute here Guy? Some cars do use W cross section
corner posts. I agree they are hidden, but how does that make them not factual?
And what prototype documents are you referring to that discuss "rounded corners"
on box car ends? I've never seen any such, and I've been reading railroad books
and magazines for over 50 years... I'm sure you can find a few that use this
terminology, but so what? Why would professional railroaders even discuss the
shape of the corners of box car ends? This is something that really only
interests modelers.

I'm looking at the PS-1 ad in the 1961 CBC, and it lists the type of corner posts
they use (rolled Z-bar, section Z-27) and discusses how the sides sheets are welded
to the posts, etc -- but nowhere in the 2 page ad is there any mention of the SHAPE
of the ends. Why would a railroader care or find it worth mentioning?

I'm fine with you using "round corners" too -- I understand what you mean. But I
can parse S-corner and W-corner just as easily. I'm multi-lingual, I guess.

Tim O'Connor

Tim,

Same response you offered in 2001, and though I am sure you are offering it up with your usual good humor, it is still incorrect. As for typing vs. hobby time? I always view contributing to this, or any other railroad interest group, as hobby time.

You, as well as all others here, can go your own way; but it seems to me that any group so concerned with facts should use the proper terminology.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
On Jan 19, 2013, at 10:25 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote as part of a reply to prior message from Guy Wilber:

Tim and Guy,
For a forthcoming article in the next RP CYC, my research includes data from a technical report issued by ACF in 1954 that culminated an extensive data collection and evaluation of box car ends at selected railroad repair shops. The main purpose was to evaluate 4 then-current end designs applied to new box cars from 1945 to 1953 (ACF Corrugated, Pullman PS-1, SRE Improved Dreadnaught, and SRE Carbuilder that lacked the minor corrugations). While all of these ends had round corners, the study also evaluated older end designs of cars built as early as 1911 in which damage was evaluated as the cars came into the shops. In the report were descriptions of various ends that were evaluated, excerpts as follows.

"Flat Ends: These are old designs with square corners."

"Panel Ends: Having square corners, they fail at the sides. The lowest panel usually is distorted more than the upper panels."

"Old Dreadnaught Ends: These have the weak square corner which yields. The 3 1/4 inch corrugations do not seem to be any weaker than the later Improved ends......."

"A box-like corner post was adopted in 1937. S.R.E. Company has obtained a patent claiming "W" section corner post, a rounded corner with the corrugations blending into the corner......."

The report is an indication that engineers and technicians in the industry used the terms "square corner" and "rounded corner" when describing box car ends.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Pennsy X43b

Clark Propst
 

I’m getting a Branchline PRR X43b kit I’d like to make into car number 86162. Are there any detail part changes (RB, HB, trucks, etc) I need to make?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Updated Roster Lists (was: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car)

Stuart Forsyth <trainmail@...>
 

Hi Ed,

I look forward to the posting of your improved list.

Thank your for this--and for so much other fine work you do for us.

Best wishes,

Stuart A. Forsyth
forsyth@usa.net

On Jan 19, 2013, at 2:10 PM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On Jan 19, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Guy Wilber wrote:

As earlier quoted by Arved Grass:
"In the non-SP world, Southern also had (unmodified) 1937 AAR cars
with both square and W corner posts (curved corner - I think Ed Hawkins
is preferring this nomenclature over W corner posts now, based on
recent e-mail discussions with him)."

Then quoted 1/18/13 by Guy Wilber:
The preferred nomenclature for ends used on cars built with "W"
section corner posts should be that of the AAR; "Rounded Corner End."
The 1932 ARA and 1937 AAR box car designs originally used "Z" bar
corner posts with, "Square Corner Ends". It's as simple as that. The
AAR adopted the improved Murphy end for both the 1932 and 1937 designs
on March 1, 1941. All ballots (related to the change), Car Construction
Committee reports, and revised drawings used the above terminology.

Why anyone refers to any end as a "W" end continues to baffle me? At
the very least; please consider "W" corner post with rounded corner end
or simply call it a rounded corner end. Nearly everyone refers to the
square corner end without reference to the "Z" bar corner post, so why
not do the same with the rounded corner end?

Guy and Arved,
To set the record straight as may be required or appropriate, I refer
to box car ends as having either square corners or round corners. This
complies with terminology as noted by Guy Wilber and is consistent with
A.R.A./A.A.R. designations. I always welcome data that Guy provides as
I know the information is accurate and based on official source data.

More specifically this relates to the recent STMFC discussions of 1932
A.R.A., 1937 A.A.R. (i.e., 10' IH), and Modified 1937 A.A.R. (i.e.,
10'-4" to 10'-6" IH) box cars built from circa 1933-1946. Since 2002
rosters of these three categories of box cars that I originally
compiled have been available from the STMFC web site for downloading
and anyone's personal use. Admittedly, some of the data may be either
incorrectly defined or misleading. Despite making many revisions to my
roster lists over the past 10 or so years, unfortunatly, to my
knowledge the lists have not been updated on the STMFC web site since
their original 2002 submissions.

It should be kept in mind that the roster lists I offered to be shared
with others and uploaded to the web site were my personal Excel files
that I created for my personal use. While some of the definitions or
notations weren't necessarily proper or correct, I knew what they
meant. In retrospect, prior to providing the Excel lists in 2002 for
use on the STMFC web site, I should have ensured that terminology was
consistent with A.R.A./A.A.R. definitions.

Many of the subsequent changes I have made include better definitions
and notations of some of the cars' features. As an example, one column
heading was changed to "End Corners" with either Round or Square for
each entry. I have also added several new columns of information to
include more dimensional data (such as truck centers and height from
rail to top of running board) and more detailed data including type of
trucks and wheels, to the extent that I am able to define them. I look
forward to providing the updated lists to Rob for inclusion on the
STMFC web site at the earliest possible date. This is part of an
overall upgrade to the web site that Rob has in work.

Once the updated roster lists are available for downloading from the
STMFC web site, anyone finding errors, omissions, or having
recommendations for improvement can be reported to me off list for
future revision. The new columns of information sometimes contain
blanks in which I could not identify the item from a railroad diagram,
builder's drawing, bill of materials, published material from a
reliable source, or photograph. Thus, I'll gladly accept input and
feedback to continually improve the lists that should always be
considered "works in progress."
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Standard Railway Equipment Manufacturing Company's own ad in the January 4, 1941 issue of Railway Age says "The Round Corner Dreadnaught End When Used with W-Section Corner Posts . . . " That should give fuel to the fires of both the 'round corner' and 'w-section corner post' camps.

While collecting Dreadnaught ads the earliest 'round corner' ad found so far is this 1941 ad.

Gene Green


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Mikebrock
 

Tim O'Connor says:

"Why would a railroader care or find it worth mentioning?"

Well...it seems to me that it would depend upon the definition of the term "railroader" and the fact that Guy didn't mention "railroader", he referred to the AAR. Don't overlook the fact that the STMFC is "home" for those interested in design as much as operations. As has been discussed countless times, for example, the term "turnout" might well be unknown to a "railroader" working as part of a crew on a train but it definitely appears in my Elements of Railroad Track and Construction printed in 1915. Did great numbers of train crews study this book? Probably not. So, like in many cases, terminology depends upon one's audiance. Should I mention...shudder...friction and plain bearing?

Mike Brock


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Tim O'Connor
 

And what 'facts' are in dispute here Guy? Some cars do use W cross section
corner posts. I agree they are hidden, but how does that make them not factual?
And what prototype documents are you referring to that discuss "rounded corners"
on box car ends? I've never seen any such, and I've been reading railroad books
and magazines for over 50 years... I'm sure you can find a few that use this
terminology, but so what? Why would professional railroaders even discuss the
shape of the corners of box car ends? This is something that really only
interests modelers.

I'm looking at the PS-1 ad in the 1961 CBC, and it lists the type of corner posts
they use (rolled Z-bar, section Z-27) and discusses how the sides sheets are welded
to the posts, etc -- but nowhere in the 2 page ad is there any mention of the SHAPE
of the ends. Why would a railroader care or find it worth mentioning?

I'm fine with you using "round corners" too -- I understand what you mean. But I
can parse S-corner and W-corner just as easily. I'm multi-lingual, I guess.

Tim O'Connor

Tim,

Same response you offered in 2001, and though I am sure you are offering it up with your usual good humor, it is still incorrect. As for typing vs. hobby time? I always view contributing to this, or any other railroad interest group, as hobby time.

You, as well as all others here, can go your own way; but it seems to me that any group so concerned with facts should use the proper terminology.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Auto unloading in 1910...

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Claus Schlund (HGM) <claus@hellgatemodels.com> wrote:

Hi,

Auto unloading in 1910...

http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt2q2nd27t/?query=railroad&;brand=calisphere


An interesting photo, Claus. That's a rather informal unloading ramp. Most people don't know that Packard once made trucks. And note that the railroad car is a Santa Fe Fe-K class steel underframe wood sheathed auto car that was new at that time, having been built in 1910.


Richard Hendrickson


Re: Updated Roster Lists (was: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car)

Guy Wilber
 

Ed wrote:


"While some of the definitions or
notations weren't necessarily proper or correct, I knew what they
meant. In retrospect, prior to providing the Excel lists in 2002 for
use on the STMFC web site, I should have ensured that terminology was
consistent with A.R.A./A.A.R. definitions."

I would like to leave no doubt that my post was not intended to critique your fine work, Ed. I have always admired your efforts and more so your willingness to share it with us here (on this list), privately, and within your outstanding publications. I believe the fact that you are working to change the format to include the proper terminology speaks volumes for your credibility!


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Auto unloading in 1910...

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi,

Auto unloading in 1910...

http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt2q2nd27t/?query=railroad&;brand=calisphere

- Claus Schlund


Re: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car

Scott Pitzer
 

This appears to be a case where the proper terminology is also the simplest for the new student of freight cars to learn from--
"See how this box car end has a square corner, while this one is rounded?"
"Oh, it sure is!"
vs.
"You can tell this box car has a Z inside each corner, while this other one has a W."
"I can?"

Scott Pitzer

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Updated Roster Lists (was: 1937 Modified and Unmodified AAR Box Car)

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jan 19, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Guy Wilber wrote:

As earlier quoted by Arved Grass:
"In the non-SP world, Southern also had (unmodified) 1937 AAR cars
with both square and W corner posts (curved corner - I think Ed Hawkins
is preferring this nomenclature over W corner posts now, based on
recent e-mail discussions with him)."

Then quoted 1/18/13 by Guy Wilber:
The preferred nomenclature for ends used on cars built with "W"
section corner posts should be that of the AAR; "Rounded Corner End."
The 1932 ARA and 1937 AAR box car designs originally used "Z" bar
corner posts with, "Square Corner Ends". It's as simple as that. The
AAR adopted the improved Murphy end for both the 1932 and 1937 designs
on March 1, 1941. All ballots (related to the change), Car Construction
Committee reports, and revised drawings used the above terminology.

Why anyone refers to any end as a "W" end continues to baffle me? At
the very least; please consider "W" corner post with rounded corner end
or simply call it a rounded corner end. Nearly everyone refers to the
square corner end without reference to the "Z" bar corner post, so why
not do the same with the rounded corner end?

Guy and Arved,
To set the record straight as may be required or appropriate, I refer
to box car ends as having either square corners or round corners. This
complies with terminology as noted by Guy Wilber and is consistent with
A.R.A./A.A.R. designations. I always welcome data that Guy provides as
I know the information is accurate and based on official source data.

More specifically this relates to the recent STMFC discussions of 1932
A.R.A., 1937 A.A.R. (i.e., 10' IH), and Modified 1937 A.A.R. (i.e.,
10'-4" to 10'-6" IH) box cars built from circa 1933-1946. Since 2002
rosters of these three categories of box cars that I originally
compiled have been available from the STMFC web site for downloading
and anyone's personal use. Admittedly, some of the data may be either
incorrectly defined or misleading. Despite making many revisions to my
roster lists over the past 10 or so years, unfortunatly, to my
knowledge the lists have not been updated on the STMFC web site since
their original 2002 submissions.

It should be kept in mind that the roster lists I offered to be shared
with others and uploaded to the web site were my personal Excel files
that I created for my personal use. While some of the definitions or
notations weren't necessarily proper or correct, I knew what they
meant. In retrospect, prior to providing the Excel lists in 2002 for
use on the STMFC web site, I should have ensured that terminology was
consistent with A.R.A./A.A.R. definitions.

Many of the subsequent changes I have made include better definitions
and notations of some of the cars' features. As an example, one column
heading was changed to "End Corners" with either Round or Square for
each entry. I have also added several new columns of information to
include more dimensional data (such as truck centers and height from
rail to top of running board) and more detailed data including type of
trucks and wheels, to the extent that I am able to define them. I look
forward to providing the updated lists to Rob for inclusion on the
STMFC web site at the earliest possible date. This is part of an
overall upgrade to the web site that Rob has in work.

Once the updated roster lists are available for downloading from the
STMFC web site, anyone finding errors, omissions, or having
recommendations for improvement can be reported to me off list for
future revision. The new columns of information sometimes contain
blanks in which I could not identify the item from a railroad diagram,
builder's drawing, bill of materials, published material from a
reliable source, or photograph. Thus, I'll gladly accept input and
feedback to continually improve the lists that should always be
considered "works in progress."
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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