For some reason when I submit posts via my email account, yahoo does not recognize them as a continuation of an
existing thread, which can be a detriment to future archival searches. However, when I submitted the following email
via the yahoo web site, it did not appear on the list of messages. If anyone has insight into this problem, I would
appreciate your assistance- off list presumably.

Ben Scanlon��wrote:

on the illinois central car, in TTnut a similar photo of a CV car was posted.
it looks a little too high for the 'fowler clone' represented by the gold coast TT kit, which i think is
supposed to be 8' IH?

The CV 40000 series build date, dimensions, and construction details suggest an ARA design parentage, which should
not be confused with the earlier cars that have been central to this thread.��However, keep in mind that the previous
statement is made without consulting mechanical drawings.

The 1919 CBC/TS 35 has drawings of a 40' Fowler box car- such a reference is explicitly made in the caption, which
gives some legitimacy to using the term for at least one of the relevant car series.��See figures 14 and 15 on pages 256
and 257.��Note that the drawings do not correspond well with Figure 13, a 36' CP Fowler/Dominion car, as stated in
the CBC!��Note also the explicit reference in this latter diagram's caption to the Fowler patent(s) and CP, CNW, Soo,
and IC cars.��I have this feeling that I had previously identified what road's car this drawing showed, but cannot find
any notes showing a conclusion.��If anyone can positively make that identification, it would be much
appreciated.��These drawings show a 15" channel center sill in addition to the heavy end sills which demonstrate how
the design is substantially different from later 20's era 7 panel cars derived from the ARA designs.

The 40' Fowlers are as different from, for example, the CV cars as an X29 is from a '32 ARA/AAR box car, regardless of
the roof or end details commonly recognized by modelers.

(RI had later similar cars with steel ends and other variations in corner bracing, i think in the B-2
classification. i do not know if these were the same height as the earlier cars but they look similar.)

Yes, these cars were mentioned in the text of my draft and are listed in the roster.��See the cited RITS publication for
further information.

Earl Tuson

The August, 1992 issue of Mainline Modeler had Jeff Koeller's article on these cars titled "Fowler Box Car". It includes two Delano photos from 1942 and 1943, showing that at that time both styles of roof were in use.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Al Westerfield wrote:
"Mainline Modeler had plans for the car (citation needed)."

My Mainline Modelers are in storage, so I can't immdeiately confirm the specific article for the car in question because of Hundman's habit of giving articles vague titles, but it's among these three Jeff Koeller articles (drawing in the third article):

"C&NW single-sheathed box cars - U. S. standard design", Mainline Modeler, August 2003.

"C&NW 1920s single-sheathed box car Part 1, 1921 ARA box cars with wood doors", Mainline Modeler, September 2003.

"C&NW 1920s single-sheathed box car Part 2, 1921 ARA cars with steel doors" (with Hundman drawing), Mainline Modeler, October 2003.

Citations are from the online Model Train Magazine Index hosted on the Model Railroader website.


Ben Hom

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

All;

I got familiar with the X26C and F during the research on same for TKM, F&C, and RPCyc, so:

"The first the Pennsy chose to utilize their own shops forces, and the availability of new pre-assembled roof and side components, to rebuild the usable parts into a "modern" 9'2" wide, 10'6" inside height, 7-foot door box car. The cars featured state-of-the-art rectangular panel "Murphy" roofs, 5/5 riveted panel sides, and the pre-war incarnation of the Youngstown corrugated 7-foot door. The old car body was removed, "T"-shaped brackets riveted to the old side sills, filler panels added at the top and side of the old 5/5/5 Murphy ends, and the new car body assembled on top.

The first 2,000 cars, running from road number 104260 to 106259, appear to have had only minor differences, primarily in power handbrakes.

The next 1,000 cars, running from road number 106260 to 107259, seem to have been furnished with Superior 7-panel doors, and also a mix of power handbrakes.

The final 500 cars, running from 107260 to 107749, and constructed in 1949, were furnished with Youngstown post-war 7-foot doors (the primary spotting difference being the raised seam panels approximately one-third and two-thirds of the way up the door), and also featured the brand-new Stanray diagonal panel roof.

All cars appear to have some variation of the rectangular grid running board.

PRR documents indicate the use of the original Andrews-type truck as found on the USRA cars as-built, as well as the Pennsy's 2D-F8, and 2D-F12 trucks equipped with standard bearings, with a 5'6" wheelbase, weighing 7,500 pounds each. The 2D-F12 can be distinguished from the 2D-F8 by its used of a leaf spring in place of one of the outer springs.

(1) Car numbers 104361, 104374, 104430, 104493, 104518, 104550, 104563, 104594, 104602, 104623, 104654, 104669, equipped with Pullman-Standard "Compartmentizers".
(2) Car numbers 104287, 104495, 104786, 104820, 104976, 105198, 105230 equipped with racks for hauling farm machinery.
(3) Car numbers 104301, 104305, 104314, 104335, 104341, 104360, 104434, 104467, 104585, 104600, 104648, 104650, 104672, 104695, 104755, 104756, 104765, 104925, 105090, 105206, 106149, 106525, 107061 equipped with racks for hauling miscellaneous auto parts.
(4) Car 105330 equipped with racks for hauling auto side panels.
(5) Cars 105136 and 107324 equipped with "device" for hauling L.C.L freight.
(6) 219 cars of this series differ slightly in interior dimensions, possibly due to use of different flooring or side and end lining."

I haven't found much correspondence on these cars, but I will keep looking.

Elden Gatwood

Mainline Modeler had plans for the car (citation needed). I used those plus numerous photos including the Delano ones to make the kit. – Al Westerfield

From: brian
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 8:43 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Fowler and fowler clone boxcar roofs


CNW Fowlers had roofs with "ribs"? My Westerfield kit has a wood-planked roof. So CNW rebuilt the roofs on all or some? And when?

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

--- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, cepropst@... wrote:

The M&StL clones (18000 series) had 15 roof 'ribs' and according to Gene Green's records were retired in 1949.
The CNW Fowlers bought used by the M&StL in 1942 (51500 series) also had 15. These cars were retired in 1951.
Clark Propst

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/ic171500asw.jpg

San Juan Car Company has an exquisite model of the D&RGW car in O scale, while Westerfield offers this in HO. The
former may be a resource itself, while the latter's web page can help with lettering for many of the roads' cars (see the
4400 and 6400 series of kits.)

End of old draft.

Earl Tuson

hullo earl

thank you for the detail. this is very informative for me.

on the illinois central car, in TTnut a similar photo of a CV car was posted.

it looks a little too high for the 'fowler clone' represented by the gold coast TT kit, which i think is supposed to be 8' IH? however it is a very interesting car.

i have found on one of the rock island mail lists that a few of the composite ended early RI 'fowler clones' were still on their roster in 1962, but had gone by 1965. these are the ones with 18 thin roof ribs described in the O scale magazine article as 'mullions', as opposed to the 15 on the gold coast model.

(RI had later similar cars with steel ends and other variations in corner bracing, i think in the B-2 classification. i do not know if these were the same height as the earlier cars but they look similar.)

regards, ben

Perhaps the Editors of RP CYC could be convinced to devote some pages to what, from the discussion recently, is obviously a diverse group of cars yet share some characteristics. A singular source with up to date information would help clarify much of the confusion.

Bill Welch

At 09:19 PM 1/6/2013, Earl Tuson wrote:
<snip>

I drafted the following notes and roster some years back in anticipation of an injection molded S scale version, which
has yet to be released by Des Plaines Hobbies: <<big snip>>

Earl

As you may have gathered from some of the thread vectors on this topic over the last few days...
your compiled information is -extremely- useful to the scattered few of us modeling in TT-scale.

The 40ft "Fowler clone" is one of only TWO cars currently being produced in styrene for the US TT market.
The other is the '37 AAR box.. both done by Felix and John Verser (does that name ring some bells...?)
at Gold Coast Models in Coos Bay OR. http://www.goldcoastrailway.com/rtr.html

Knowing what the "possibilities" of these Fowlers might be...
allows those of us who want to avoid complete foobies, some realistic options in choosing prototypes from various roads.

Many Thanks...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Earl, thanks for mentioning that CNWHS Modeler. The photo in there of #51646, an ex-CNW Fowler, certainly show a roof with battens.

So my Westerfield kit has the original roof. I model 1949. What style roof do I want?

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

A Clark Propst article on the M&StL cars can be found online in the CNWHS Modeler, Vol 3 #1. My apologies if this
has already been mentioned.

I drafted the following notes and roster some years back in anticipation of an injection molded S scale version, which
has yet to be released by Des Plaines Hobbies:

An accurate PRS model of a D&RGW 40', 8' IH Fowler will also be able to nicely represent several other prototypes
(with a only few detail changes.) Apparently, the CRI&P, D&RG, and M&StL purchased a total of 7000 cars to the
same basic design between 1913 and 1916. The C&NW and CMO built 8500 cars to a similar design between 1914
and 1915, while the McCloud River tacked 15 cars onto those orders for themselves. The RF&P acquired 200 cars new,
built similar to the CNW cars, but with inwardly corrugated steel ends. The M&StL later purchased 500 of the C&NW
cars secondhand, AND, in 1939, 102 OF THE RF&P CARS AS WELL (I can't recall why I capitalized this, but perhaps I
had been unable to find confirmation of this. Clark Prospt does have the same in the article referenced above.)
During the twenties, the RI also built 2700 similar cars with Murphy and Dreadnaught ends, some with radial roofs.
Apparently, many of the RI cars were later sold to Salzberg shortlines, but I have not attempted to track those. I
suppose it could also be a stand-in model for the 8'4" IH cars the IC received at about the same time, although those
also had a fishbelly underframe. Car series and numbers (except IC) over the years is as follows:

(This was tab delimited when pasted, and I am unsure how well it will come though.)

10/19 7/31 1/40 4/46 7/49 7/50 1/53
CNW 100000-104998 2493 2438 2278 1004 37 22 10
CNW 109000-109998 498 489 466 207 16 7 3
CNW 121000-124998 1992 1965 1883 1184 63 43 19
CNW 137200-141198 1996 1970 1868 1086 58 34 10
Total CNW Fowler 6979 6862 6495 ? 174 106 42
Total CNW Box Cars 38166 36771 22893 ? ? 23187 23324
% CNW Box Cars 18% 19 28 .5 .2

CMO 31200-34198 1489 1452 1437 1219 558 402 67
Total CMO Box Cars 8939 6301 3084 ? ? 3392 2758
% CMO Box Cars 17% 23 47 12 2

D&RG(W) 66000-67499 1486 1474 1453 1405 1380 1367 969
Total D&RGW Box Cars 5136 4247 4293 ? ? 4399 3951
% D&RGW Box Cars 29% 35 34 31 25

M&StL 18000-18998 499 495 490 213 0 0 0
M&StL 28000-28202 (RF&P) 0 0 100 0 0 0 0
M&StL 51500-51798 (CNW) 0 0 0 147 ? 2 0
Total M&StL Box Cars 6160 4597 1825 ? ? 2285 2742
% M&StL Box Cars 8% 11 32 .1 0

MR 3021-3049 15 15 1 0 2 2 2
Total MR Box Cars 15 15 1 ? ? 2 2
% MR Box Cars 100% 100 100 100 100

RF&P 2251-2450 200 183 0 0 0 0 0
Total RF&P Box Cars 546 930 512 145
% RF&P Box Cars 37% 20 0 0 0 0 0

CRI&P 40700-42199 1494 1477 1399 230 12 9 3
CRI&P 42200-44699 3487 2454 2396 1843 601 411 29
CRI&P 44700-45699 above 983 973 848 392 303 23
CRI&P 45700-46199 497 492 480 446 347 93 15
CRI&P 46200-46699 0 500 492 481 476 475 469
CRI&P 133000-133999 0 998 987 970 ? 963 945+10 XI
CRI&P 157500-158699 0 1198 1188 ? ? 1157 1102
Total RI Fowler 5478 8102 7915 ? ? 3411 2596
Total RI Box Cars 31868 31509 18933 ? ? 18024 20058
% RI Box Cars 17% 26 42 19 13

Total Fowler Above 15946 18583 17791 5290 3676
Total Box Cars Above 90284 84370 51029 51289 52835
% Fowler Above 18% 22 35 10 7

My references include:

TS 35/1919 CBC (photo & plans)
RITS Data Sheet #26 (data, photos & diagrams)
MM 4/86 (data)
MM 8/92 (data, photos & plans)
Nehrich's FC Guide (data & photos)
STMFC thread beginning at post 11315
Westerfield's web page (data & models)
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/ri158209asw.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/drgw/drgw66306ajs.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/ri133999asw.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/ic171500asw.jpg

San Juan Car Company has an exquisite model of the D&RGW car in O scale, while Westerfield offers this in HO. The
former may be a resource itself, while the latter's web page can help with lettering for many of the roads' cars (see the
4400 and 6400 series of kits.)

End of old draft.

Earl Tuson

Clark, I understand, but Westerfield's roof, as well as the photos I've seen (such as Jack Delano's yard shot that was on the cover of Mainline Modeler), has just wood boards showing, not a steel-sheathed roof with battens.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

I just counted the battens between the roof panels in the photos I have and called them ribs for lack of the correct term. The photos I have are of the car sides, no roof shots.
Clark Propst

Brad Andonian writes:

"Ted,

Am I correct to assume these are all HO?

If you have some in O, please email me--"

Off list, Brad, Off List.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

CNW Fowlers had roofs with "ribs"? My Westerfield kit has a wood-planked roof. So CNW rebuilt the roofs on all or some? And when?

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Ted,
 
Am I correct to assume these are all HO?
 
If you have some in O, please email me--
 
Thanks,
Brad


________________________________
From: Ted Culotta <speedwitchmedia@gmail.com>
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 5:44 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Finished models for sale


 

As some of you are aware, I have pulled in the date that I am modeling from
1947 to 1938. This means that I have several (actually many) models of
Steam Era Freight Cars (jail term avoided!) that for a variety of reasons
are now extraneous to my needs and would be better off rolling around
someone's layout. I have been posting them on ebay, but the buyers seem to
be from here so it seems easier to go right to the source. If you are
interested in knowing what is for sale, details, etc., please contact me
off list via speedwitchmedia at gmail dot com and will send you the list,
details, etc. Thanks for the bandwidth and also for all the well wishes a
couple weeks back. I am still working on replies to all of them.

Cheers,
Ted Culota

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As some of you are aware, I have pulled in the date that I am modeling from
1947 to 1938. This means that I have several (actually many) models of
Steam Era Freight Cars (jail term avoided!) that for a variety of reasons
are now extraneous to my needs and would be better off rolling around
someone's layout. I have been posting them on ebay, but the buyers seem to
be from here so it seems easier to go right to the source. If you are
interested in knowing what is for sale, details, etc., please contact me
off list via speedwitchmedia at gmail dot com and will send you the list,
details, etc. Thanks for the bandwidth and also for all the well wishes a
couple weeks back. I am still working on replies to all of them.

Cheers,
Ted Culota

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that
series??"

I replied:
"NO! Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars."

A. T. replied:
"You are right! Pat did do the demonstrator cars."

To be fair to A. T., PRR 36986 was one of the five demonstration cars:

ARA 1 -> NYC 100000
ARA 2 -> C&O 1900
ARA 3 -> PRR 36986
ARA 4 -> C&O 1901
ARA 5 -> C&O 1902


Ben Hom

A.T. Kott wrote:

Tony -
Pacific Limited did in fact import a model of the single UP boxcar. Pat O'Boyle imported brass models of about 16 different varieties of the 1932 ARA boxcar, with the appropriate roadname on each of the boxes.

If I gave the impression I did not believe the car was done, I apologize. I did not think that and did not mean to say it. My comment was that for most modelers, CHOOSING to include this car, which was one of a kind, strikes me as an extreme rarity and a poor addition to a layout freight car fleet. But obviously YMMV.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Ben -

You are right! Pat did do the demonstrator cars.

A.T. Kott

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that series??"

NO!  Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars.


Ben Hom