Date   

Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Bill McClure
 

Rob,

A couple of points and then I'll be quiet. The Delano boxcar snip looked to have a color cast. I took it into Lightroom and as small as the PNG is, it still revealed a blue cast over the entire image. I removed that and the colors look richer, less washed out. What's the point? That shot was probably under a blue sky that acted like a big blue light source, soft but blue. The same shot under a cloudy sky would have had a totally different tone. We can adjust white balance today, Delano could only do so with filters, either at camera or in the darkroom. Did he? Who knows. 

Moreover, we don't know if the color cast was introduced somewhere in the steps that brought it to your monitor. I converted to digital photography in 2002 and it took several years for me to begin to grasp the mysteries involved in translating a slide or print from scanner to computer to printer, or God forbid, to four-color press output. (Just look at the variations in color repro work across the railfan press.) And even then the original slide or print might have had its own color bias. Finally, your monitor and my monitor may not 'see' the exact same 'color.'

Second, to Tony's point. I have models that have been finished in ways that would just not 'look right' on my layout, circa 1956. There wouldn't be that 'period theme' that Tony and Bruce seek. My several ACL ventilated boxcars, finished as from the shop in original and rebuilt schemes, just won't work on my layout, so they stay elsewhere. But a weathered FEC version works.

To me, the Delano images are so attractive because there is color harmony, many reds and browns, complemented by blue or green, and an overall warm tone produced by the Kodachrome of the era. It helped that the railroad scene was also full of warm tones, with few distracting colors. I try to find that kind of harmony in my modeling, even if the colors are not perfect.

Anyway, I applaud your quest and wish you success. You have caused me to think about all of these mysteries again.

Be safe,
Bill


Photo: NYC&HR Gondola 81888

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: NYC&HR Gondola 81888

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3277265

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:06 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:
I'm currently working on a new study of Mather, from the company's incorporation in 1882 to its sale to North American in 1956,
Be sure to include examples of Alonzo's patents. His patent for a "Flying Machine" is a classic.

Any company that could build a skyscraper in Chicago's Loop district might have been scrappy, but was hardly a "backwards underdog"... even if it was the skinniest skyscraper ever.

Dennis Storzek


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dave, Tony, and all;

 

I agree with everything being said, with the addition that while true for the PRR (I grew up in Pittsburgh in the sixties and seventies, and well remember the air, water and ground pollution), I also traveled the nation, and other area landscapes were far less filthy, but not entirely for freight cars.  Some freight cars that were more restricted were not as filthy, some western roads in particular.  And it did vary by car type.

 

I also agree with the >90% filthy observation.  Absolutely.

 

My lesson out of that was:  model from photographs of the specific car, in its period!

 

And yes, Delano IS the gold standard:  Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of devansprr
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

devansprr
 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans


Re: Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

The heading for this photo is incorrect.
This is MP 73799.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: CP Gondola 132138

Jim Gates
 


Is that an odd load, or an expedient extended side?

Jim Gates

On Thursday, November 12, 2020, 12:17:20 PM CST, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Photo: CP Gondola 132138

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3285536

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car Built 1931.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: N&W B-5 Boxcar Went West

James Brewer
 

And a resin model of that "beautiful" N&W Class B-5 boxcar is available in HO scale from Yarmouth!

http://www.yarmouthmodelworks.com/index.php/ResinModelKits/Index

Jim Brewer


N&W B-5 Boxcar Went West

gary laakso
 

While it is not the same as a N&W hopper climbing the Wasatch , here is a B-5 class on the UP, behind a 2-8-0

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-WP-and-UP-Salt-Lake-City/i-v6C3tgZ/A 

 

you can tap on the picture to enlarge it. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

mopacfirst
 

The photo attached is of a car from the 73501-74250 series, built by Pullman and Pennsylvania Car in 1925.

Ron Merrick


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Bruce - yes - I recall your model era, and I’d like to see that clinic!  

I appreciate how the Delano colours are not accurate/real.  There are all kinds of biases in there.  Colour correction in photo software also seems to be of marginal help (in my limited knowledge/efforts).  There is always the risk that one’s logic becomes circular; - a much over simplified example:  “GN boxcars are this colour, therefor adjust the image to reproduce that colour”.  I’m avoiding that - using the neutrals and black and whites to help.  And green grass and green leaves can be somewhat useful.  Skies - all over the map.  There are a lot of images from back then with yellow and grey-green skies, so one can assume colour problems (and dust/smoke).  Delano has less of that though.   But I am also looking at colour movies as references - although they are also riddled with issues.  

Taking a step back: this is part of what makes this hobby fun - not only the Proto research about the various railroads and their approach, or the history of colour images and rendering in different types of film (and all the issues translating those images into my hands 75 years later)  - but then the eye and artistry to achieve appealing effects with indoor lights on (my case) HO scale models . . .   A strange kind of fun.

Rob

On Nov 12, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Rob,

As you may remember, I model 1944, so Delano’s photos are a very important resource for me. Like Bill, I have spent some time following the works of military modelers and continue to do so to try to learn more. With respect to clinics, I presented a weathering clinic “From basics to extremes” at Prototype Rails 2018 that I am happy to share.

Some basic thoughts
1) Delano’s colors are not real. They are biased by the film used.
2) Layers, lots of layers
3) Lots of different media and approaches. Each car is a new canvas that should be approached differently (for the unique looks). However, you can and should develop a “fleet approach” for the background. For example, with some 50+ tank cars to weather, I can’t afford the time to do each one as a “work of art” and besides, that’s not what you see. So I have a “fleet” approach that will go on 80-90% of the black cars. It’s still layered, nuanced, and not always to the same extent, but it is pretty fast to do. The rest will get individual touches.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Moving toward the “Delano look” seems to be a very long road for me.  I’ve been custom mixing pain for quite a while, but it is challenging to land on shades that do justice to the real thing.  And I too am borrowing from the endless Youtube content on weathering techniques and effects.  The military guys have stretched my tool box.  But I am not really content with the results I am achieving yet.  The scale effect and indoor lighting are as much of the challenge as interpreting the photos.  

My question isn’t about CB&Q colours, but just to follow up on an earlier enquiry.  I asked the other day about CB&Q paint - and was advised it was a Mineral red colour (which is, btw, helpful information as a starting point, and I appreciate it).  It was noted that there are products on the market specifically labelled for this colour.  And I can see how they are useful.   

Here’s a couple of examples of a heavily cropped Delano images that show colours I find very hard to duplicate indoors on a model.  I’d say the last photo (taking into account all the interpretation challenges inherent in the photos, etc, etc) might be approximated using, for example, the TruColor CB&Q paint as a starting point.   But the low light in that photo tends to create a colourful glow - I’m not so sure I want to model based on that.  There is a huge range between the three cars.  As many have said before, the colours tend to move toward each other, although there are few cars exactly alike.   And there are a lot of cars that are the dark, washed out gray brown colour of the middle photo.  (Yes, there is a significant atmospheric effect in the photo, but many other photos and light conditions show cars in the same dark tones.)  Many other cars move to the pink range.  And many others in the tan range.  I find grey-brown, pink and tan paint very challenging to use on a model.

I’m collecting stills from film footage of the early and mid 1940s.  The angle of the camera to the car side also impacts how the paint is recorded.   But they tend to show most colours lighter than the Delano shots.  i.e. more pink, more tan, more gray-brown.   

So I am looking for what others who’ve delved into this have concluded and found in their experiments.    
<Delano April May 1943 LC-USW36-566.png>
<CB&Q Delano April 1943 LC-USW36-563 .png><cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>
Rob




On Nov 12, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill

<cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>



Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

I wish I could have sat in on one of those clinics; and look forward to the next time you can update that clinic.  Mustn’t have been in the few years I made it to Cocoa Beach.  It’s exactly what I am looking for.  Maybe one of the virtual venues??

Rob

On Nov 12, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

     Rob, you must have never heard the clinics that Richard Hendrickson did on this topic, nor the joint clinic he and I presented a few times (and which I recently updated and revised for presentation at Cocoa Beach).
      Richard felt strongly that few modelers are willing to make models truly dirty, though in the steam era it was not a rare condition, and that few modelers are capable of modeling BOTH almost-clean cars and seriously dirty cars. Instead, he believed (and I concur) that modelers tend to settle on a degree of weathering that they like and can achieve, and their whole fleet tends to end up that way.
       Regarding the Delano photos, Richard felt that there are some film issues with the colors. He was quite careful in using vintage photos for purposes of color choice, though of course such photos can readily show degrees of dirt.

Tony Thompson





Re: Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

Ian Cranstone
 

Thanks for finding this photo Bob, it seems to be one I haven’t seen from Library and Archives Canada.

IOX 7044 was actually built by AC&F in the fall of 1920, and reweighed in 3/1937. Following acqusition of the Imperial Oil fleet by UTLX Canadian subsidiary Products Tank Line of Canada (later Procor) at the end of 1952, this car would be renumbered UTLX 26423, and would serve into the 1970s.

The lettering style was adopted by Imperial Oil in 1930 (with some variations), and examples could be found into the 1950s.

Ian Cranstone

Osgoode, Ontario, Canada

lamontc@...

http://freightcars.nakina.net


On Nov 12, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)
A photo from the National Archives of Canada:
This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.
Built 1937.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Bruce Smith
 

Rob,

As you may remember, I model 1944, so Delano’s photos are a very important resource for me. Like Bill, I have spent some time following the works of military modelers and continue to do so to try to learn more. With respect to clinics, I presented a weathering clinic “From basics to extremes” at Prototype Rails 2018 that I am happy to share.

Some basic thoughts
1) Delano’s colors are not real. They are biased by the film used.
2) Layers, lots of layers
3) Lots of different media and approaches. Each car is a new canvas that should be approached differently (for the unique looks). However, you can and should develop a “fleet approach” for the background. For example, with some 50+ tank cars to weather, I can’t afford the time to do each one as a “work of art” and besides, that’s not what you see. So I have a “fleet” approach that will go on 80-90% of the black cars. It’s still layered, nuanced, and not always to the same extent, but it is pretty fast to do. The rest will get individual touches.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Moving toward the “Delano look” seems to be a very long road for me.  I’ve been custom mixing pain for quite a while, but it is challenging to land on shades that do justice to the real thing.  And I too am borrowing from the endless Youtube content on weathering techniques and effects.  The military guys have stretched my tool box.  But I am not really content with the results I am achieving yet.  The scale effect and indoor lighting are as much of the challenge as interpreting the photos.  

My question isn’t about CB&Q colours, but just to follow up on an earlier enquiry.  I asked the other day about CB&Q paint - and was advised it was a Mineral red colour (which is, btw, helpful information as a starting point, and I appreciate it).  It was noted that there are products on the market specifically labelled for this colour.  And I can see how they are useful.   

Here’s a couple of examples of a heavily cropped Delano images that show colours I find very hard to duplicate indoors on a model.  I’d say the last photo (taking into account all the interpretation challenges inherent in the photos, etc, etc) might be approximated using, for example, the TruColor CB&Q paint as a starting point.   But the low light in that photo tends to create a colourful glow - I’m not so sure I want to model based on that.  There is a huge range between the three cars.  As many have said before, the colours tend to move toward each other, although there are few cars exactly alike.   And there are a lot of cars that are the dark, washed out gray brown colour of the middle photo.  (Yes, there is a significant atmospheric effect in the photo, but many other photos and light conditions show cars in the same dark tones.)  Many other cars move to the pink range.  And many others in the tan range.  I find grey-brown, pink and tan paint very challenging to use on a model.

I’m collecting stills from film footage of the early and mid 1940s.  The angle of the camera to the car side also impacts how the paint is recorded.   But they tend to show most colours lighter than the Delano shots.  i.e. more pink, more tan, more gray-brown.   

So I am looking for what others who’ve delved into this have concluded and found in their experiments.    
<Delano April May 1943 LC-USW36-566.png>
<CB&Q Delano April 1943 LC-USW36-563 .png><cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>
Rob




On Nov 12, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill

<cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>


Re: Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Ray Breyer
 

Pay close attention to Richard's modeling notes for these cars, keeping in mind that they're biased towards the last decade for this group (1950-1960).

Ignore ALL of his corporate history for Mather. It's wholly wrong, including his hypothesis on their car construction techniques. I'm currently working on a new study of Mather, from the company's incorporation in 1882 to its sale to North American in 1956, and what I'm finding is contradicting everything Richard though was correct about Mather (which in 1915 was the third largest private leasing company behind Armour & UTLX, at 14,066 cars. At one time Mather owned 7.6% of all stock cars running in the United States. The company was anything BUT a scrappy, backwards underdog).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Thursday, November 12, 2020, 12:04:24 PM CST, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Courtesy of Train Life, here is a link to an article from the February 1997 issue of Railmodel Journal on single-deck livestock cars by Richard  Hendrickson:

http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1997_2/

The article begins on Page 24.

This is Part I of a series.

Richard discusses the Mather company as well as modeling these cars.

Also included is a chart listing the cars, with car numbers, Mather leased to the railroads.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Tony Thompson
 

     Rob, you must have never heard the clinics that Richard Hendrickson did on this topic, nor the joint clinic he and I presented a few times (and which I recently updated and revised for presentation at Cocoa Beach).
      Richard felt strongly that few modelers are willing to make models truly dirty, though in the steam era it was not a rare condition, and that few modelers are capable of modeling BOTH almost-clean cars and seriously dirty cars. Instead, he believed (and I concur) that modelers tend to settle on a degree of weathering that they like and can achieve, and their whole fleet tends to end up that way.
       Regarding the Delano photos, Richard felt that there are some film issues with the colors. He was quite careful in using vintage photos for purposes of color choice, though of course such photos can readily show degrees of dirt.

Tony Thompson




Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3933073

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: CN Boxcar 511477 (1931)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: CN Boxcar 511477 (1931)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3520060

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: CP Gondola 132138

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: CP Gondola 132138

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3285536

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car Built 1931.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3603416

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Built 1937.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

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