Date   

Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Once again I am reminded that I should read all the messages before responding to one. At least 3 gentlemen responded with an answer as good as or better than mine.
Gene Green


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Bill,
Let's not reinvent the wheel. It is my opinion that the best source to answer your questions is the Dictionary of Terms found in the beginning of each Car Builders' Cyc.

To answer your specific questions, Fish-Belly Sill and Side Sill are the terms found in the 1931 Cyc. The definition for Hatch is "The opening and also its cover through which ice is placed in refrigerator cars."

Gene Green


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Douglas Harding
 

Bill, I can't help with your specific questions. But to add to possible
confusion, I do know that the terms stockpen & stockyard later became stock
pen and stock yard in common usage. Believe the change took place sometime
in the 40's/50's. It is quite possible the terms you are asking about also
experienced changes through the years. Which may or may not help you in your
editing process.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 14, 2012, at 3:01 PM, lnbill wrote:

I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am
about to broach, but on the other hand, perhaps others have
wondered about the same thing. The issue seems more pregnant as I
continue to write text and captions for the book I am working on.

Should it be "fishbelly" or "fish belly" or "fish-belly?" Should it
be "sidesill" or "side sill" or "side-sill?" I could go on. Is a
"hatch" the opening or the appliance that covers the opening?

Maybe everyone else knows the answers and I am only the one too
often in the dark but I sincerely doubt it.

My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in
existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about
terminology...?
Sure, Bill. The extensive "Dictionary of Car Terms" at the front of
every issue of the Car Builders' Cyclopedias covers almost any term
you might use and represents what was standard practice in the
literature by/for railroad car men. The CBCyc Dictionaries tended to
favor keeping adjectives and nouns separate rather than hyphenated
(e.g. "side sill") but did hyphenate "fish-belly" (e.g. "fish-belly
sill). As for "hatch", the CBCyc definition is "the opening and also
it's cover...." So you don't need a committee, just any steam-era
issue of the CB Cyc (probably a later rather than earlier issue,
since some terms were added as new developments in car technology
were introduced).


Richard Hendrickson


Re: the images section of the San Francisco Public Library

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 14, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Claus Schlund (HGM) wrote:

Hi List Members,

As one might expect, searching "railroad" in the images section of
the San Francisco Public Library web site (www.spfl.org) turns up a
lot of images of streetcars and cable cars. But there are some true
railroad shots, and a few have steam era freight cars.

Two that I liked...

Nice shot showing some AT&SF cars in background - are these called
'panel side boxcars'?
http://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfphotos/AAD-4982.jpg
For what its worth, Claus, the term most commonly used by Santa Fe
freight car historians/modelers is "sectional sheathed."

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Combo Door Box Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 14, 2012, at 3:21 PM, polaris4525 wrote:

During the early-mid 50's some 40' combo door boxcars, as
represented bu Accurail's 3800-series, began to appear on Western/
Northwestern Roads.

What was the purpose of providing a boxcar with both a plug door
and a sliding door? As the GN and NP seemed to be proponents of
this configuration, I would speculate that this had something to do
with lumber shipments, but I have never been able to verify this.
Did any Eastern roads own such cars?
Jim, the rationale for combination sliding door/plug door box cars
was simple. Double doors made it much easier to load cars with fork
lifts, but it was difficult to secure loads behind sliding doors so
that the doors could still slide. Auxiliary plug doors fitted flush
with the lining on the inside of the car and, when opened, moved out
away from the load, so loads could be fitted right up against them.
This was an arrangement that appealed especially to railroads like
the GN, and NP with a lot of lumber traffic, but other RRs adopted it
as well. However, it didn't take the RR mechanical departments long
to figure out that it one plug door was good, two (or a single very
wide one) were better.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Combo Door Box Cars

Dave Sarther
 

Dennis,

Interesting point made about the plug doors failing. From what I read during my research, the plug doors were susceptible to early failure and required replacement much sooner than anticipated. However, this being said, many of the NP, GN and CB&Q cars made it to the BN and beyond according to Equipment Registers and a few photos I have with both doors still in use. But I have also uncovered a few photos of cars that had the plug door removed and replaced with a second sliding door. An interesting evolution in equipment use and reuse by the railroads.

If you happen to have photos or other information regarding the 40' Soo Line cars please let me know.

Later, Dave S. Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: soolinehistory <destorzek@mchsi.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:53 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Combo Door Box Cars







--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "polaris4525" <kuban@...> wrote:

During the early-mid 50's some 40' combo door boxcars, as represented bu Accurail's 3800-series, began to appear on Western/Northwestern Roads.

What was the purpose of providing a boxcar with both a plug door and a sliding door? As the GN and NP seemed to be proponents of this configuration, I would speculate that this had something to do with lumber shipments, but I have never been able to verify this. Did any Eastern roads own such cars?

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV
The large door opening was good for loading lumber, while with the plug door closed it could be set up with grain doors like a standard boxcar, which is something a double door car with standard doors couldn't be. A wider plug door might have been a better idea, but would have needed a small grain loading door, something the railroads didn't seem to want to provide.

If I can follow this thought past the 1960 cut off date of this list for a moment, in 1963 the Soo line started building what may have been the ultimate grain boxcar... fifty feet long, appx. 5000 cu.ft., 70 ton capacity with ten foot plug doors with grain loading doors in the uppermost panel, these were to be the next big thing in grain service... except they still had to be shoveled out by hand. At just about the same time, the industry as a whole was swiftly moving to large capacity covered hoppers for grain, and the Soo followed suit, and eventually eliminated the grain loading doors from those cars so equipped as the doors needed replacement.

Dennis









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

water.kresse@...
 

Bill,



Thank you for asking.  Do not the early Car Builder's Cyclopedias have a list of terms?  


Good questions.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----


From: "armprem2" <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 6:42:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Good idea Bill....Go for it. Armand Premo
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: lnbill
  To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 6:01 PM
  Subject: [STMFC] A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars


    
  I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am about to broach, but on the other hand, perhaps others have wondered about the same thing. The issue seems more pregnant as I continue to write text and captions for the book I am working on.

  Should it be "fishbelly" or "fish belly" or "fish-belly?" Should it be "sidesill" or "side sill" or "side-sill?" I could go on. Is a "hatch" the opening or the appliance that covers the opening?

  Maybe everyone else knows the answers and I am only the one too often in the dark but I sincerely doubt it.

  My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about terminology, and if not, are we a group of people that might be willing to trust the results if an informal editorial board somehow came forward to develop a Glossary/Dictionary/Lexicon/Manual of Style--call it what we may--that could serve as a reliable reference? Granted people might disagree, but on the other hand, and I am not going to put them on the spot by naming them, there are people on this list that are very familiar with the terms we commonly use that could do this easily, and with great authority. Of course if people want to avoid using what is agreed upon, they are free to do so, but many of us I think would find such a resource invaluable and would use it.

  Admittedly, I have more questions than answers plus I really want to spend my time working on my book but I think it would only require 3-5 people, off-line of course, to come up with something. One person to coordinate and "herd the cats" would be necessary, an editor and 2-4 assistant editors if you will. Does this "speak" to anyone?

  Bill Welch



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Combo Door Box Cars

Dave Sarther
 

Jim,

You are spot on about part of the commodities carried in this sort of box car. The 6' sliding door was used as the traditional opening to load grain into the car while the plug door stayed closed and stopped grain from leaking out. The 8' door, or some cases depending on the builder, the 6' plug door was used in conjunction with the sliding door to create a wider opening to load lumber with a forklift. These cars were manufactured for the GN at their St Cloud shops (1956, 1958-1960) in addition to others purchased from AC&F, the NP made their own cars at their Brainerd Shops (1959-1960) and purchased others from Pullman Standard while the CB&Q manufactured all their cars at their Havelock Shops (1959-1961). I have found no examples of railroads in the east using these cars but I really haven't looked to hard. The original models of the cars offered by Accurail show that they were lettered for GN. NP, CB&Q and Soo as I recall. While the Accurail model was a fine model filling a niche it was far from accurate for any of the Granger Roads of the West/Northwest.

I became interested in these cars when I spotted rather significant differences between the models available and the photos of cars found in various NP, GN and CB&Q "Equipment" books. Further research also turned up rather significant distinctions between a few other Granger Roads Combo Door 40' cars (most notably the Rock Island, Milw Rd to mention two other roads). It seems that no two railroads followed the same plan and no two manufacturers of cars for the same railroad made the cars the same way. I researched the topic rather exyensively uncovering drawings for the cars, many builders photos of both ends and both sides of cars and even some AFE's (Authorization For Expenditure) for the CB&Q cars which specify the not just the type of equipment but the sub-contractors for specific components used. This material was outlined on earlier STMFC postings I made earlier this Spring and Summer. Both the NP Historical Association (NPRHA) and Great Northern Historical Society (GNRHS) ran a feature about their respective cars in their Summer 2012 issues. I worked with a very accomplished resin caster, Chad Boas, to make castings available for very exact models of the GN, NP and CB&Q cars along with Jerry Glow who issued decals with previously missing stencil details. Both Chad and Jerry still sell the components to complete accurate versions of these three Hill Roads 40' Combo Door Cars.

Should you wish more information regarding these unusual cars please contact me off-line and I will be more than happy to share my research.

Later, Dave S. Tucson, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: polaris4525 <kuban@labs.net>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:21 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Combo Door Box Cars





During the early-mid 50's some 40' combo door boxcars, as represented bu Accurail's 3800-series, began to appear on Western/Northwestern Roads.

What was the purpose of providing a boxcar with both a plug door and a sliding door? As the GN and NP seemed to be proponents of this configuration, I would speculate that this had something to do with lumber shipments, but I have never been able to verify this. Did any Eastern roads own such cars?

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill Welch wrote:
I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am about to broach . . . My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about terminology . . . a Glossary/Dictionary/Lexicon/Manual of Style . . .
Bill, I assume you mean as a supplement or extension of the extensive dictionary entry in every Car Builders Cyc issue?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am about to broach, but on the other hand, perhaps others have wondered about the same thing. The issue seems more pregnant as I continue to write text and captions for the book I am working on.

Should it be "fishbelly" or "fish belly" or "fish-belly?" Should it be "sidesill" or "side sill" or "side-sill?" I could go on. Is a "hatch" the opening or the appliance that covers the opening?

Maybe everyone else knows the answers and I am only the one too often in the dark but I sincerely doubt it.

My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about terminology, and if not...
Bill,

This was the original purpose of the Car Builder's Dictionary, later the Car Builder's Cyclopedia, published every three or four years all through our period of interest. Just pick a year that suits your purpose, and buy one, or use one of the pree 1922 editions available on Google books.

No sense re-inventing the wheel.

Dennis


Re: Combo Door Box Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "polaris4525" <kuban@...> wrote:

During the early-mid 50's some 40' combo door boxcars, as represented bu Accurail's 3800-series, began to appear on Western/Northwestern Roads.

What was the purpose of providing a boxcar with both a plug door and a sliding door? As the GN and NP seemed to be proponents of this configuration, I would speculate that this had something to do with lumber shipments, but I have never been able to verify this. Did any Eastern roads own such cars?

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV

The large door opening was good for loading lumber, while with the plug door closed it could be set up with grain doors like a standard boxcar, which is something a double door car with standard doors couldn't be. A wider plug door might have been a better idea, but would have needed a small grain loading door, something the railroads didn't seem to want to provide.

If I can follow this thought past the 1960 cut off date of this list for a moment, in 1963 the Soo line started building what may have been the ultimate grain boxcar... fifty feet long, appx. 5000 cu.ft., 70 ton capacity with ten foot plug doors with grain loading doors in the uppermost panel, these were to be the next big thing in grain service... except they still had to be shoveled out by hand. At just about the same time, the industry as a whole was swiftly moving to large capacity covered hoppers for grain, and the Soo followed suit, and eventually eliminated the grain loading doors from those cars so equipped as the doors needed replacement.

Dennis


Re: A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Armand Premo
 

Good idea Bill....Go for it. Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: lnbill
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 6:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars



I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am about to broach, but on the other hand, perhaps others have wondered about the same thing. The issue seems more pregnant as I continue to write text and captions for the book I am working on.

Should it be "fishbelly" or "fish belly" or "fish-belly?" Should it be "sidesill" or "side sill" or "side-sill?" I could go on. Is a "hatch" the opening or the appliance that covers the opening?

Maybe everyone else knows the answers and I am only the one too often in the dark but I sincerely doubt it.

My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about terminology, and if not, are we a group of people that might be willing to trust the results if an informal editorial board somehow came forward to develop a Glossary/Dictionary/Lexicon/Manual of Style--call it what we may--that could serve as a reliable reference? Granted people might disagree, but on the other hand, and I am not going to put them on the spot by naming them, there are people on this list that are very familiar with the terms we commonly use that could do this easily, and with great authority. Of course if people want to avoid using what is agreed upon, they are free to do so, but many of us I think would find such a resource invaluable and would use it.

Admittedly, I have more questions than answers plus I really want to spend my time working on my book but I think it would only require 3-5 people, off-line of course, to come up with something. One person to coordinate and "herd the cats" would be necessary, an editor and 2-4 assistant editors if you will. Does this "speak" to anyone?

Bill Welch


contact info or email address for Thornton Waite

Larry Sexton
 

Does anyone have contact information or an email address for Thornton Waite
in Idaho Falls, Idaho?



Larry Sexton


the images section of the San Francisco Public Library

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,

As one might expect, searching "railroad" in the images section of the San Francisco Public Library web site (www.spfl.org) turns up a lot of images of streetcars and cable cars. But there are some true railroad shots, and a few have steam era freight cars.

Two that I liked...

Nice shot showing some AT&SF cars in background - are these called 'panel side boxcars'?
http://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfphotos/AAD-4982.jpg

Is this end shot showing car WP 914??? Resolution could have been set a little higher...
http://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfphotos/AAC-8270.jpg

Enjoy - Claus Schlund


Combo Door Box Cars

mici256751
 

During the early-mid 50's some 40' combo door boxcars, as represented bu Accurail's 3800-series, began to appear on Western/Northwestern Roads.

What was the purpose of providing a boxcar with both a plug door and a sliding door? As the GN and NP seemed to be proponents of this configuration, I would speculate that this had something to do with lumber shipments, but I have never been able to verify this. Did any Eastern roads own such cars?

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


A Glossary or Lexicon of Terms related to Freight Cars

Bill Welch
 

I realize I may be opening a BIG can of worms with the issue I am about to broach, but on the other hand, perhaps others have wondered about the same thing. The issue seems more pregnant as I continue to write text and captions for the book I am working on.

Should it be "fishbelly" or "fish belly" or "fish-belly?" Should it be "sidesill" or "side sill" or "side-sill?" I could go on. Is a "hatch" the opening or the appliance that covers the opening?

Maybe everyone else knows the answers and I am only the one too often in the dark but I sincerely doubt it.

My question then is there a comprehensive resource already in existence that we can easily access to clarify our questions about terminology, and if not, are we a group of people that might be willing to trust the results if an informal editorial board somehow came forward to develop a Glossary/Dictionary/Lexicon/Manual of Style--call it what we may--that could serve as a reliable reference? Granted people might disagree, but on the other hand, and I am not going to put them on the spot by naming them, there are people on this list that are very familiar with the terms we commonly use that could do this easily, and with great authority. Of course if people want to avoid using what is agreed upon, they are free to do so, but many of us I think would find such a resource invaluable and would use it.

Admittedly, I have more questions than answers plus I really want to spend my time working on my book but I think it would only require 3-5 people, off-line of course, to come up with something. One person to coordinate and "herd the cats" would be necessary, an editor and 2-4 assistant editors if you will. Does this "speak" to anyone?

Bill Welch


Re: 70-Ton Barber S-2 plain journal trucks by Red Caboose

granpa92@...
 

Andy,

Is there some way you could provide some pictures of the truck you are
offering?

Thanks,

Larry Platt

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>
To: Steam Era <stmfc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:06 pm
Subject: [STMFC] 70-Ton Barber S-2 plain journal trucks by Red Caboose





After a several years of unavailability, some HO Red Caboose trucks for
the now
SPHS-owned SP 52' F-70-7 fish belly flat car are again available. 1000s
of Red
Caboose flats have been sold with the Accurail 50-ton spring-plank
"Bettendorf"
truck substituting for the correct Barber truck which featured the
correct
spring pack for these SP flat cars.

Two years ago, Dan Smith and I purchased the tooling for the RC truck
after
years of no success in buying trucks direct. Turned out that the
original
toolmaker died, and Red Caboose did not have an easy way to have the
parts run.
Seems that the tool was designed specifically for a certain molding
machine, and
the tool did not have a mold base.

In a conversation I had with Jimi Booth, I mentioned the truck tooling
dilemma.
Jimi surprised me when he said that he owned the molding machine which
the RC
truck tooling fit. Jimi had purchased the shop items from the deceased
toolmaker. Knowing that Jimi was running the parts for both the SP
F-70-7 flat,
plus the commissioned society's welded SP 52' flat, I offered the tool
to Jimi.
He ran some of these 3-piece trucks for Dan and me, which I am offering
to the
STMFC'ers.

Red Caboose HO plain journal Barber S-2 70-ton truck, less wheelsets
...............$3.90/pair.
Intermountain code 88 semi-scale wheelsets, pkg of 12 axles (for 3
truck pairs)
....$7.00/pack
Intermountain code 110 RP25 wheelsets, 4 axles (for one pair of trucks)
................$2.75/4

Postage will be added. I accept checks and money orders. For a fee, I
can also
accept PayPal.

If interested, please contact me Off-List at <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>

Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


TOFC .ca 1927

Dave Nelson
 

These cars were purchased in 1927 to expand the North Shore's existing
"TOFC" fleet. Photo is apparently of newly delivered cars.



CNS&M cars:

http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/interurbans/northshore/cnsm15
13.jpg



Ready for loading:

http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/freight/images/MontrosePiggybackRamp01.j
pg



Being loaded:

http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/freight/images/MontrosePiggybackRamp02.j
pg



Last two images are from September, 1927.



Dave Nelson


70-Ton Barber S-2 plain journal trucks by Red Caboose

Andy Carlson
 

After a several years of unavailability, some HO Red Caboose trucks for the now
SPHS-owned SP 52' F-70-7 fish belly flat car are again available. 1000s of Red
Caboose flats have been sold with the Accurail 50-ton spring-plank "Bettendorf"
truck substituting for the correct Barber truck which featured the correct
spring pack for these SP flat cars.

Two years ago, Dan Smith and I purchased the tooling for the RC truck after
years of no success in buying trucks direct. Turned out that the original
toolmaker died, and Red Caboose did not have an easy way to have the parts run.
Seems that the tool was designed specifically for a certain molding machine, and
the tool did not have a mold base.

In a conversation I had with Jimi Booth, I mentioned the truck tooling dilemma.
Jimi surprised me when he said that he owned the molding machine which the RC
truck tooling fit. Jimi had purchased the shop items from the deceased
toolmaker. Knowing that Jimi was running the parts for both the SP F-70-7 flat,
plus the commissioned society's welded SP 52' flat, I offered the tool to Jimi.
He ran some of these 3-piece trucks for Dan and me, which I am offering to the
STMFC'ers.

Red Caboose HO plain journal Barber S-2 70-ton truck, less wheelsets
...............$3.90/pair.
Intermountain code 88 semi-scale wheelsets, pkg of 12 axles (for 3 truck pairs)
....$7.00/pack
Intermountain code 110 RP25 wheelsets, 4 axles (for one pair of trucks)
................$2.75/4

Postage will be added. I accept checks and money orders. For a fee, I can also
accept PayPal.


If interested, please contact me Off-List at <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>

Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

72641 - 72660 of 185271