Date   

Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Paul Doggett
 

Fenton 

Two really great looking cars great work.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 25 Oct 2020, at 22:27, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Thanks Chuck.  I've done some SRR 50 footers as well.  The early 50 footers were 10'-0" IH and the SR had 12 ft doors, go figure.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 6:24 PM Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:

Fenton,

 

Fantastic job on the ACL DD boxcar.  Love the double rivet lines.  I will be looking forward to the article.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
<SRR #40148.JPG>


Re: ATSF in California

Guy Wilber
 

Doug Harding wrote:

“The 28 hr Law of 1906 outlawed any feeding or watering while in transit, making the apparatuses useless.”

From Section 3 of “The 28 Hour Law” in reference to unloading, feeding and rest within Sections 1 and 2:

“...Provided, That when animals are carried in cars, boats or other vessels in which they can and do have proper food, water, space and opportunity to rest the provisions in regard to their being unloaded shall not apply.”

There is no provision within the Act specifically “outlawing” feeding and watering stock while in transit. 

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: ATSF in California

Douglas Harding
 

When it comes to stockcars I think the key date is 1906, when the 28 hr law was updated and implemented with enforcement teeth. Prior to that many stockcars were built with various apparatuses in attempts to feed and water livestock while in transit. These included storage boxes on the roof, hatches in the roof for dropping feed and hay, and water troughs in the side walls or built inside the car. White’s Freight Car book covers some of this, and photos of stockcars built prior to 1906, esp those from 1880-1900, show these various apparatuses. The 28 hr Law of 1906 outlawed any feeding or watering while in transit, making the apparatuses useless.

 

Some railroads, the ATSF being one, did build stockcars with drop bottoms and/or hatches in the roof to allow hauling of other loads besides livestock, even after 1906. Railroads did not like paying for specialty cars that ran empty or sat unused, so they looked for anything that made a car useful for other loads. Anything that could stand exposure to weather could be hauled in a stockcar. But getting the commodity loaded or unloaded was often time consuming, ie cost money. Not many roads built dual purpose stockcars, esp after about 1920. And many of these cars were rebuilt, in the 20s-40s, losing their drop bottoms and roof hatches. In general by the 50s stockcars with roof hatches were quite rare if nonexistent.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Gates via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 3:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 


The Santa Fe Sk-H, I, K, L, N, and P classes were built with Caswell drop bottoms and roof hatches. There were several thousand of them. As Garth says, they were primarily designed to allow hauling coke, but as long as the beets were bigger than the gaps in the slats, they were perfectly suited for this service. These are not the same as the feeding roof hatches on earlier cars.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, October 25, 2020, 02:32:57 PM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

 

 

Bill,

 

I can't speak about 19th century cars, but in the early 20th century there were some large blocks of "convertible" cars that could do double-duty, perhaps to make some money on the back hauls. Stock cars were among these cars, sometimes being used for coal or coke, which could be loaded through roof hatches, and emptied through bottom gates. Two different ATSF classes are shown in the 1919 CBD (reprinted as Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedia #36).

 

Common boxcars were also sometimes built with floor gates. The GN experimented with hopper-bottom boxcars, and a kit was once offered by F&C (not in their catalog last time I looked). Even California's Northern Electric Railway (later Sacramento Northern) had some 36' wooden boxcars with roof hatches and floor gates for grain. Several such cars which survived as farm sheds finally bought the dust in the 1990s: https://www.wplives.org/sn/nebox.html .

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> wrote:

Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Leider's B&OCT book

Tony Thompson
 

You’re welcome, David. It’s an impressive book and I’m enjoying it a lot.
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 24, 2020, at 6:44 PM, David Leider <sooauthor@...> wrote:

Tony,
Thank you for the nice review
David


Re: OIL CAR

Charles Peck
 

I can see two reasons for the car being so marked.  Both suppositions, as 
I did not work on that railroad in that time frame.
One, like cars in green hide service, I would think the interior to be grungy 
with leaks and spills. Not a condition one would want to spread through 
other cars in more general service.
Secondly, many of these products would be flammable to some extent. Kerosene 
for instance.  Good to warn people as to the contents.  Especially should it be 
having a roaring hotbox.
Chuck Peck  (Some days I wish for a time machine to get better answers.)

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 7:00 PM Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
I would guess the photo was taken in the 1900-1910 decade based upon lettering details. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Oct 25, 2020, at 5:47 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

matthew:
that was my thought also, just wondered
why they specifically labelled as they did
;-)
mel perry

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:37 PM Matthew Metoyer <mmetoyer@...> wrote:
This image is pre-1930; note the location of car numbers and railroad name. I doubt crankcase oil (or recycling) was a concern at that time.

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA


Re: OIL CAR

Eric Hansmann
 

I would guess the photo was taken in the 1900-1910 decade based upon lettering details. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Oct 25, 2020, at 5:47 PM, mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:

matthew:
that was my thought also, just wondered
why they specifically labelled as they did
;-)
mel perry

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:37 PM Matthew Metoyer <mmetoyer@...> wrote:
This image is pre-1930; note the location of car numbers and railroad name. I doubt crankcase oil (or recycling) was a concern at that time.

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA_._,_._,_


Re: OIL CAR

mel perry
 

matthew:
that was my thought also, just wondered
why they specifically labelled as they did
;-)
mel perry

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:37 PM Matthew Metoyer <mmetoyer@...> wrote:
This image is pre-1930; note the location of car numbers and railroad name. I doubt crankcase oil (or recycling) was a concern at that time.

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:27 PM Lloyd Keyser <lloydkeyser@...> wrote:
Also old crankcase oil to be returned to the refinery for reprocessing. Lloyd Keyser

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:40 PM Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The X in front of the number would seem to indicate a company service car.
As such, it likely carried kerosene for lanterns, engine lubricants of various 
sorts, journal oil, and other such supplies in drums or cases of  grease.
Chuck Peck

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:06 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
can anyone identify what an oil car was?
and why a separate classification?
thanks
mel perry

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 11:09 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: UP Livestock Car 60156 (1895)

Photo from the Sioux City Public Museum:

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/?siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/f8/af8ad4b3-f4cc-5521-9314-a0c07d569482/536574c6681e5.image.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Moderator


Re: OIL CAR

Matthew Metoyer
 

This image is pre-1930; note the location of car numbers and railroad name. I doubt crankcase oil (or recycling) was a concern at that time.

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 3:27 PM Lloyd Keyser <lloydkeyser@...> wrote:
Also old crankcase oil to be returned to the refinery for reprocessing. Lloyd Keyser

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:40 PM Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The X in front of the number would seem to indicate a company service car.
As such, it likely carried kerosene for lanterns, engine lubricants of various 
sorts, journal oil, and other such supplies in drums or cases of  grease.
Chuck Peck

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:06 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
can anyone identify what an oil car was?
and why a separate classification?
thanks
mel perry

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 11:09 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: UP Livestock Car 60156 (1895)

Photo from the Sioux City Public Museum:

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/?siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/f8/af8ad4b3-f4cc-5521-9314-a0c07d569482/536574c6681e5.image.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Moderator


Re: OIL CAR

Lloyd Keyser
 

Also old crankcase oil to be returned to the refinery for reprocessing. Lloyd Keyser

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:40 PM Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The X in front of the number would seem to indicate a company service car.
As such, it likely carried kerosene for lanterns, engine lubricants of various 
sorts, journal oil, and other such supplies in drums or cases of  grease.
Chuck Peck

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:06 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
can anyone identify what an oil car was?
and why a separate classification?
thanks
mel perry

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 11:09 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: UP Livestock Car 60156 (1895)

Photo from the Sioux City Public Museum:

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/?siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/f8/af8ad4b3-f4cc-5521-9314-a0c07d569482/536574c6681e5.image.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Moderator


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Chuck.  I've done some SRR 50 footers as well.  The early 50 footers were 10'-0" IH and the SR had 12 ft doors, go figure.


On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 6:24 PM Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:

Fenton,

 

Fantastic job on the ACL DD boxcar.  Love the double rivet lines.  I will be looking forward to the article.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Chuck Cover
 

Fenton,

 

Fantastic job on the ACL DD boxcar.  Love the double rivet lines.  I will be looking forward to the article.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: ATSF in California

Jim Gates
 


The Santa Fe Sk-H, I, K, L, N, and P classes were built with Caswell drop bottoms and roof hatches. There were several thousand of them. As Garth says, they were primarily designed to allow hauling coke, but as long as the beets were bigger than the gaps in the slats, they were perfectly suited for this service. These are not the same as the feeding roof hatches on earlier cars.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, October 25, 2020, 02:32:57 PM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Bill,

I can't speak about 19th century cars, but in the early 20th century there were some large blocks of "convertible" cars that could do double-duty, perhaps to make some money on the back hauls. Stock cars were among these cars, sometimes being used for coal or coke, which could be loaded through roof hatches, and emptied through bottom gates. Two different ATSF classes are shown in the 1919 CBD (reprinted as Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedia #36).

Common boxcars were also sometimes built with floor gates. The GN experimented with hopper-bottom boxcars, and a kit was once offered by F&C (not in their catalog last time I looked). Even California's Northern Electric Railway (later Sacramento Northern) had some 36' wooden boxcars with roof hatches and floor gates for grain. Several such cars which survived as farm sheds finally bought the dust in the 1990s: https://www.wplives.org/sn/nebox.html .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> wrote:
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Richard Townsend
 

The Shake 'n' Take group has done this a number of times. Check their archives.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 25, 2020 12:08 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

With my peculiar attachment to DD 40 foot auto/box cars, this would be an interesting project. I have just received the Yarmouth D&RGW 40 foot DD box car and it is now in the TBB queue. 

I found EFC #5 in my archives of RMC articles clipped from the magazine when I dumped many old MR and RMC's a few years back. It only covers the wood sided cars.  Another interesting project. There is an interesting insert in the article on modeling AB brakes that I need to review.

Are there any articles dealing with the upgrading to DD steel sided 40 foot cars and how to model them. A weird thought that the much maligned Tichy steel rebuilt box car body might be a start with the rebuilt underframe.  The ends look challenging.  I have one in the TBB queue waiting for Ted's P&LE decals to be reissued. I may issue diversion orders to change it to an SSW rebuild project.
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: OIL CAR

Charles Peck
 

The X in front of the number would seem to indicate a company service car.
As such, it likely carried kerosene for lanterns, engine lubricants of various 
sorts, journal oil, and other such supplies in drums or cases of  grease.
Chuck Peck

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:06 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
can anyone identify what an oil car was?
and why a separate classification?
thanks
mel perry

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 11:09 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: UP Livestock Car 60156 (1895)

Photo from the Sioux City Public Museum:

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/?siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/f8/af8ad4b3-f4cc-5521-9314-a0c07d569482/536574c6681e5.image.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Moderator


Re: ATSF in California

Bill Parks
 

Bruce & Garth - 

Thanks for the info.  This is a car type I don't know a lot about (hauling livestock was not a priority on the Seaboard - they had less than 50 stock cars in the early 50s).  Glad to learn something new today.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

O Fenton Wells
 

Ken, It's not that difficult to make your own steel sides with Evergreen sheet styrene, especially now with Archer rivets.  This one was interesting as it has two rows of rivets per panel.  I've done it several times, the most recent is the ACL O-24 I finished a few weeks ago.  I've been asked to do an article on this for SAL/ACL modeler.  This car started out it's life as a P2K 50 SD boxcar at 10'-6"IH but now it is an ACL car with a 10'-1"IH.
Fenton

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:21 PM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Ken Adams asked:
"Are there any articles dealing with the upgrading to DD steel sided 40 foot cars and how to model them?"

The 2019 Cocoa Beach Shake 'N Take project detailed the Intermountain 40 ft automobile boxcar to match SOU 272500-272999.


"...much maligned Tichy steel rebuilt box car body..."

Why is it much maligned?


Ben Hom



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: ATSF in California

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Bill,

I can't speak about 19th century cars, but in the early 20th century there were some large blocks of "convertible" cars that could do double-duty, perhaps to make some money on the back hauls. Stock cars were among these cars, sometimes being used for coal or coke, which could be loaded through roof hatches, and emptied through bottom gates. Two different ATSF classes are shown in the 1919 CBD (reprinted as Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedia #36).

Common boxcars were also sometimes built with floor gates. The GN experimented with hopper-bottom boxcars, and a kit was once offered by F&C (not in their catalog last time I looked). Even California's Northern Electric Railway (later Sacramento Northern) had some 36' wooden boxcars with roof hatches and floor gates for grain. Several such cars which survived as farm sheds finally bought the dust in the 1990s: https://www.wplives.org/sn/nebox.html .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:12 PM Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43=YAHOO.COM@groups.io> wrote:
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Benjamin Hom
 

Ken Adams asked:
"Are there any articles dealing with the upgrading to DD steel sided 40 foot cars and how to model them?"

The 2019 Cocoa Beach Shake 'N Take project detailed the Intermountain 40 ft automobile boxcar to match SOU 272500-272999.


"...much maligned Tichy steel rebuilt box car body..."

Why is it much maligned?


Ben Hom


Re: ATSF in California

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

It's mostly an early thing, and allowed the stock to be fed and watered from the roof. It mostly went away when the stock transportation rules began to require resting stock after so many hours, so they were no longer fed on the cars, but rather at the rest stops.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 2:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California
 
Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: ATSF in California

Bill Parks
 

Prior to reading this thread and looking at the pictures, I was unaware that stock cars had hatches on their roofs.  Other than for loading bulk commodities like shown here, what were these hatches used for?  Also, was it common for stock cars to have these later on, or were they a feature of just earlier stock cars?

Thanks

--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida

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