Date   
Turtle Load

Bob Chaparro
 

Turtle Load

This is a photo from the Douglas County (MN) Historical Society. I wonder what was done with the turtles in Philadelphia?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Bill Lugg
 

I gave up on Shapeways a while ago, mostly due to their exorbitant pricing.  Try https://print.all3dp.com/ the next time you need some printing done.  I found the results to be quite satisfactory and the prices to be about a third of what Shapeways was asking for the parts I needed printed.  Admittedly, my prints were not nearly to the level of precision these are, but it might be worth a try.  I'm looking at them for bolsters and end beams for a narrow gauge tender I'm working on.  they will be printed in casting wax and cast in brass. the total cost will be about $45 for all four parts.

HTH
Bill Lugg

On 12/20/19 7:59 AM, dalemuir2@... wrote:

Re: Shapeways issues.

I have had inconsistent results from Shapeways printing long (205mm) bridge girder parts. Parts I received were off by 1mm or more. This makes it impossible to assemble parts that must have consistent dimensions. Imagine printing car sides, roof, and floor with convenient locating pins only to discover that nothing fits.

The following illustrates the issues.

The model is a seven track underpass with two independent single track bridges and a five track bridge.

There are a total of six full height girders and four "split" girders consisting of a top and bottom part. The floor is sandwiched between the top and bottom part.

Total part count is 14. (Split girders are two parts each.)

One of the four split girder top parts was about 1mm too short, so the locating pins didn't line up.

All four split girder bottom parts were useable.

IMG_1733_SplitGirder_2019_10_06_19_27_OK_GoodExample

IMG_1732_SplitGirder_2019_10_06_19_27_OK_tooShort

Two of the six full girders were about 1mm too short.

In summary, 3 of 14 parts (about 21%) were unusable. All 3 unusable parts were duplicates (same 3D model) of parts that came out near perfect.

Anyone with a little knowledge of process control would recognize immediately that Shapeways' process is out of control.

Shapeways just dismissed the issue claiming that the parts meet their specifications for Fine Detail Plastic. They won't refund or re-print.

I had to re-order (and pay for) the defective part to finish the project. The re-ordered parts were about 0.5mm too short, but I was able to make them work.

Because of this, I can't add this model to my Shapeways store.

The following is an excerpt from an email exchange I had with the Shapeways Quality Control person.

Begin quote from Shapeways QC person

The print resolutions are as follows:

Smooth = 29 micron
Smoothest = 16 micron

Indeed, that ±0.3- 0.7 range is for models that are 100mm or shorter.  The accuracy range can be a bit greater for models larger than 100mm.  I do understand you are looking for increased accuracy, however, the process does not allow for this.

We are hoping that as the technology and printer abilities increase, we will be able to provide tighter tolerances in the future but this is currently not the case and not something we can guarantee.  I understand this is disappointing and I'm sorry about that. Our production team is constantly working to improve our processes but this is currently the best accuracy range we can promise.

While certain processes do involve batch printing, this works a bit different with models printed in Fine Detail plastic as there is no stacking or "packing into a printer" involved. We explain the process on our Fine Detail Plastic materials page <https://www.shapeways.com/materials/fine-detail-plastic>:

End quote

To me, the frustrating part is that Shapeways can produce accurate parts, but they won't. They seem to be more interested in cranking out parts a cheaply as possible.

Dale Muir

Geneva, IL

*From:*main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Tom Madden via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:05 PM
*To:* main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
*Subject:* [RealSTMFC] 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

[Edited Message Follows]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 01:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Thanks Tom, very informative. This proves to me that Shapeways is just maxed out and still found wanting. It's no longer an issue of resolution, but designing around the "wax tracks". It seems the SLA process is better suited to our parts. Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.

I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports. Shapeways had a similar process, Hi Definition Acrylate,  but they dropped it because  their trimmers lacked the skill to trim such parts quickly and without damage. In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. For a while they offered HDA parts untrimmed but they've dropped that as well.

If you _can_ design around the wax track problem the 3D Systems' multi-jet modeling process (which Shapeways calls Fine Detail Plastic) is faster and much less expensive than any SLA. For large parts, like passenger car sides, the Form 2 and other small SLA printers won't work at all. Here are three images (front, back and detail) of a pair of car sides I got from Shapeways on Monday. These are images of passenger car parts, but they're shown for the technique and not the product. On the PCL and some other forums any discussion would involve the parts and not how they were made. I'm not ready for that discussion yet!
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-1.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-2.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-3.jpg

Those are flat with no sidewall detail. Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic process (16 micron layers) shows minimal stairstepping on sloped surfaces. That encouraged me to design some Pullman blind and solarium ends with full rivet detail on the end sill and in the upper ends. Both regions are sloped. I also included the handrail mounting flanges and bolts on the door frame, a vertical surface on the print.
Here's a photo showing four different ends They're castings, but the masters were printed:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg

Here's what the sidewall detail is supposed to look like:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsD.JPG

And what it does look like: (Best I could do without a macro lens.)
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsG.JPG

There is a wax track below the detail, but in this case it's not objectionable. Since it's the only such detail in the area, and the wax track is short and hidden under the handrail, it's not at all noticeable. You need to pick your battles.

Tom Madden

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

dalemuir2@...
 

Re: Shapeways issues.

 

I have had inconsistent results from Shapeways printing long (205mm) bridge girder parts. Parts I received were off by 1mm or more. This makes it impossible to assemble parts that must have consistent dimensions. Imagine printing car sides, roof, and floor with convenient locating pins only to discover that nothing fits.

 

The following illustrates the issues.

 

The model is a seven track underpass with two independent single track bridges and a five track bridge.

There are a total of six full height girders and four "split" girders consisting of a top and bottom part. The floor is sandwiched between the top and bottom part.

Total part count is 14. (Split girders are two parts each.)

 

 

One of the four split girder top parts was about 1mm too short, so the locating pins didn't line up.

All  four split girder bottom parts were useable.

 

 

Two of the six full girders were about 1mm too short.

 

 

In summary, 3 of 14 parts (about 21%) were unusable. All 3 unusable parts were duplicates (same 3D model) of parts that came out near perfect.

Anyone with a little knowledge of process control would recognize immediately that Shapeways' process is out of control.

Shapeways just dismissed the issue claiming that the parts meet their specifications for Fine Detail Plastic. They won't refund or re-print.

 

I had to re-order (and pay for) the defective part to finish the project. The re-ordered parts were about 0.5mm too short, but I was able to make them work.

 

Because of this, I can't add this model to my Shapeways store.

 

The following is an excerpt from an email exchange I had with the Shapeways Quality Control person.

 

Begin quote from Shapeways QC person

The print resolutions are as follows: 

Smooth = 29 micron
Smoothest = 16 micron

Indeed, that ±0.3- 0.7 range is for models that are 100mm or shorter.  The accuracy range can be a bit greater for models larger than 100mm.  I do understand you are looking for increased accuracy, however, the process does not allow for this. 

We are hoping that as the technology and printer abilities increase, we will be able to provide tighter tolerances in the future but this is currently not the case and not something we can guarantee.  I understand this is disappointing and I'm sorry about that. Our production team is constantly working to improve our processes but this is currently the best accuracy range we can promise.

While certain processes do involve batch printing, this works a bit different with models printed in Fine Detail plastic as there is no stacking or "packing into a printer" involved. We explain the process on our Fine Detail Plastic materials page:

End quote

 

To me, the frustrating part is that Shapeways can produce accurate parts, but they won't. They seem to be more interested in cranking out parts a cheaply as possible.

 

Dale Muir

Geneva, IL

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Madden via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

 

[Edited Message Follows]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 01:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Thanks Tom, very informative. This proves to me that Shapeways is just maxed out and still found wanting. It's no longer an issue of resolution, but designing around the "wax tracks". It seems the SLA process is better suited to our parts. Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.

I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports. Shapeways had a similar process, Hi Definition Acrylate,  but they dropped it because  their trimmers lacked the skill to trim such parts quickly and without damage. In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. For a while they offered HDA parts untrimmed but they've dropped that as well.

If you _can_ design around the wax track problem the 3D Systems' multi-jet modeling process (which Shapeways calls Fine Detail Plastic) is faster and much less expensive than any SLA. For large parts, like passenger car sides, the Form 2 and other small SLA printers won't work at all. Here are three images (front, back and detail) of a pair of car sides I got from Shapeways on Monday. These are images of passenger car parts, but they're shown for the technique and not the product. On the PCL and some other forums any discussion would involve the parts and not how they were made. I'm not ready for that discussion yet!
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-1.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-2.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-3.jpg

Those are flat with no sidewall detail. Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic process (16 micron layers) shows minimal stairstepping on sloped surfaces. That encouraged me to design some Pullman blind and solarium ends with full rivet detail on the end sill and in the upper ends. Both regions are sloped. I also included the handrail mounting flanges and bolts on the door frame, a vertical surface on the print. 
Here's a photo showing four different ends They're castings, but the masters were printed:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg

Here's what the sidewall detail is supposed to look like:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsD.JPG

And what it does look like: (Best I could do without a macro lens.)
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsG.JPG

There is a wax track below the detail, but in this case it's not objectionable. Since it's the only such detail in the area, and the wax track is short and hidden under the handrail, it's not at all noticeable. You need to pick your battles.

Tom Madden

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Corey Bonsall
 

Hi Dennis,

I've had my Form 2 apart enough to clean and keep running, and you've hit the nail on the head.  The guts are derived from paper printers, and the forces needed to break the last cured layer off of the tray window are enough that when the build plate returns the part back to the tray, the alignment is slightly off.  If I pause the printer, the build plate moves up even higher in the Z direction, and I end up with an even more noticeable layer.

That being said, if I make sure to use a proper primer and gloss paint base coat, most of those lines go away.  My examples of the UCR cars did not have primer coat, as they were tests to see if the Model Master acrylic would adhere to the resin as well without the primer.  Adhesion is still good, but as you noticed, the print lines are more pronounced.

Corey Bonsall 

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge

prr282
 

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2020 is coming up soon, March 26-29, 2020. 
The location is the same great one as in the past, The Desmond Hotel in Malvern, PA
(about 20 miles west of Philadelphia and convenient to the PA Turnpike and US 202).
Over 50 different clinics will be presented, along with a vendors room, models display
room, operating sessions, and a home layout tour.

Please visit our web site for full information:   www.rpmvalleyforge.com
There you will find a full list of vendors, timetable, hotel information, and a
registration form.

Paul Backenstose, Chairman

Re: Grace Tank Car

Bruce Smith
 

Darral,

Yes, the IM tank cars attempt to model the type 27 frame, although they do not do a great job. Probably the most glaring error are the flat side/end sills instead of the prototypes outward facing C-channel.

Regards,
Bruce


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of bn2204 via Groups.Io <doswift@...>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 6:13 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Grace Tank Car
 
Thanks David,

As a modeler modeling an era where stub sill tank cars are the norm, I'm not up to speed regarding the nomenclatures for the different type of frames associated with older tank cars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Type 27 underframe the underframe that comes with the Intermountain 8,000g/10,000g tank car kits?

Thanks,

Darrall Swift  - Lagrange,  Ohio 
Modeling the BN/MILW in North Central Montana,  Great Falls to Shelby,  Circa: August-September 1979

Re: Grace Tank Car

bn2204
 

Thanks David,

As a modeler modeling an era where stub sill tank cars are the norm, I'm not up to speed regarding the nomenclatures for the different type of frames associated with older tank cars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Type 27 underframe the underframe that comes with the Intermountain 8,000g/10,000g tank car kits?

Thanks,

Darrall Swift  - Lagrange,  Ohio 
Modeling the BN/MILW in North Central Montana,  Great Falls to Shelby,  Circa: August-September 1979

Re: Grace Tank Car

bigfourroad
 

G'Day to you Darrail
I cannot tell you with certainty what under-frame was used on 168.  When I was much younger I was well acquainted with Stanly D. Grace the son of the founder of the John H. Grace Tank Co.  At the time I was in the banking business in Chicago doing investment banking business with railroads and their suppliers the JD Grace Company had several hundred "legacy" tank cars that were managed individually and lovingly by John's sons. The diligent management of the cars produced a good living for the family. To say they were frugal would be accurate but they were very prone to make changes to their cars in reaction to best practices and market developments. My bet would be either ACF or Union Tank Car components as the cars circulated in the Midwest and West to my recollection. Here is a link to one of the cars the family donated to the B&O RR Museum in the 1990's. You can see the long life and wholesale changes to the car that I noted above. http://www.borail.org/805.aspx
Chris Rooney

Grace Tank Car

David
 

The underframe is a typical ACF Type 27, as is the tank. The vertical rivet rows are for the internal bulkheads that separate the tank shell into two compartments.

David Thompson

Re: Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

Bill Welch
 

Hard to believe I am sure but I am not planning to model either a builder's photo or a train wreck.

Bill Welch

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 03:05 PM, Tom Madden wrote:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg
There is still a problem with banding, very visible on the end doors of the lower two ends.. Not a problem is used for resin masters, but not ready for prime time without a lot of sanding. Cory's Utah Coal Route GON shows the angular layers typical of SLA; again they can be sanded out, but good luck if there are a multitude of rivets. I sometimes wonder if these are machine issues due to a lack of rigidity; the machines seem to be built like computer printers rather than machine tools.

Dennis Storzek

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Tony Thompson
 

Tom Maddenwrote (in part):

In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. 

   This reminds of what printers used to say to publishers, who naturally wanted the very best deal in every dimension:

"Quality, speed, price. Take your pick."

Tony Thompson



3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Tom Madden
 
Edited

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 01:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
Thanks Tom, very informative. This proves to me that Shapeways is just maxed out and still found wanting. It's no longer an issue of resolution, but designing around the "wax tracks". It seems the SLA process is better suited to our parts. Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.
I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports. Shapeways had a similar process, Hi Definition Acrylate,  but they dropped it because  their trimmers lacked the skill to trim such parts quickly and without damage. In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. For a while they offered HDA parts untrimmed but they've dropped that as well.

If you _can_ design around the wax track problem the 3D Systems' multi-jet modeling process (which Shapeways calls Fine Detail Plastic) is faster and much less expensive than any SLA. For large parts, like passenger car sides, the Form 2 and other small SLA printers won't work at all. Here are three images (front, back and detail) of a pair of car sides I got from Shapeways on Monday. These are images of passenger car parts, but they're shown for the technique and not the product. On the PCL and some other forums any discussion would involve the parts and not how they were made. I'm not ready for that discussion yet!
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-1.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-2.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-3.jpg

Those are flat with no sidewall detail. Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic process (16 micron layers) shows minimal stairstepping on sloped surfaces. That encouraged me to design some Pullman blind and solarium ends with full rivet detail on the end sill and in the upper ends. Both regions are sloped. I also included the handrail mounting flanges and bolts on the door frame, a vertical surface on the print. 
Here's a photo showing four different ends They're castings, but the masters were printed:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg

Here's what the sidewall detail is supposed to look like:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsD.JPG

And what it does look like: (Best I could do without a macro lens.)
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsG.JPG

There is a wax track below the detail, but in this case it's not objectionable. Since it's the only such detail in the area, and the wax track is short and hidden under the handrail, it's not at all noticeable. You need to pick your battles.

Tom Madden

Re: New early P&R steel gondola model

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.... Of course you can't find them because they were Utah Coal Route cars... Geesh.
Link to message with pix

      Nor are they hoppers . . . <g>

Tony Thompson



Toronto Railway Prototype Modellers Meet

Richard McQuade
 

The annual Toronto Railway Prototype Modellers Meet will be held on Saturday, March 21st from 8:30 am to 4:00pm. The day consists of clinics by prototype modellers and the unique “show and tell” (a.k.a. “bring and brag”) component, an open forum for modellers to discuss their display models. Each attendee is encouraged to bring a model for this whether completed or not. The Meet’s location is the same as last year: Humber College, 205 Humber College Blvd, Toronto, ON M9W 5L7 - North Campus, Building B, rooms B201 & B202. The admission is $20 and parking is free. For information about speakers and directions check our website at: https://torontoprototypemodellers.wordpress.com/ or contact Brian Gauer at: bdgauer@... 

Re: Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

Jim Betz
 

Eric,

  Bill can always 'model' a wrecked car laying along side of the
right of way ... that way the under body details will be easier to
see.  *W*
                                                            - Jim in Burlington

Re: Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

Richard Townsend
 

Maybe whitewash them as if a car set up for a builders photo was not repainted. Then it would be quite visible. 😀


On Dec 19, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:



The truss rods and turnbuckles look great, Bill. Seems a shame to hide this work in the murkiness under the car.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 9:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

 

In an effort to make sure any 1/87 size persons “living rough’ can “ride the rods” more safely I assembled the truss rod underframes of my GN and CB&Q models so that I could get a board to fit into the turnbuckles. Of course the boards also help keep the turnbuckles and therefore the underframes nice and tight.

Bill Welch

Re: Brewery Locomotive ID

spsalso
 

I see that that round "apartment building" is in the background of the photo I submitted.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

Eric Hansmann
 

The truss rods and turnbuckles look great, Bill. Seems a shame to hide this work in the murkiness under the car.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 9:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Finishing the GN & CB&Q Truss Rod U/F's

 

In an effort to make sure any 1/87 size persons “living rough’ can “ride the rods” more safely I assembled the truss rod underframes of my GN and CB&Q models so that I could get a board to fit into the turnbuckles. Of course the boards also help keep the turnbuckles and therefore the underframes nice and tight.

Bill Welch

Re: New early P&R steel gondola model

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.
... Of course you can't find them because they were Utah Coal Route cars... Geesh.
Link to message with pix

Dennis Storzek