Date   

Re: CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Dave

Four FM-14's were sold to C&S in 1956 (renumbered 100-103) and four more in 1962/3 (renumbered to 104-107). Ten more were leased to C&S in 1959-60, and subsequently bought and renumbered 200-209. Also 17 flats were leased to NP in about 1964 as NP 61534-61550 in exchange for 17 NP flats.

Whilst these may have been ex-Burlington, they did wear other road names and numbers!

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Lotz" <@davelotz>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:37 AM
Subject: [STMFC] CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes


Hi All,

I'm new to this list and have found the discussions to be very interesting
and informative. Thanks for letting me participate.

I'm primarily a CB&Q modeler and my HO scale layout (which is getting
rebuilt after a move from St. Louis) is centered around Burlington, Iowa.
One of the major rail shippers in Burlington was the J.I. Case plant using
flats to ship in steel, and to ship out combines, backhoe/loaders, crawlers
(bulldozers) and skid-steer loaders. I'd like to mix up the flats that
would have been used out of the factory and was wondering how many railroads
rostered 53' 6" flat cars that were identical in design, or very close to
the CB&Q's straight side sill, fishbelly underframe FM-14 (89100-89250,
92000-92349) and FM-14A flat cars (89300-89599, 92400-92799, 93000-93399).
I've uploaded an image from the Q's diagram book of this car to be posted to
the photo area of the list for comparison purposes.

I've checked the list archives for this information and in my library. I've
found that the ATSF had FT-19s that look similar, the FW&D had ex-Q
FM-14/14A flats (641-676) and the GN had the FC 60200-602224 series flats.

I thought it would be a fun exercise to tap into the collective knowledge of
the list membership and find out which other roads had these 53' 6" flats.
I hope others agree.

Dave Lotz
CB&Q fan from Pooler, GA


Re: Mopac hoppers in Bellevue, OH

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

George Simmons writes:

Yes, but the MOP did have a couple of branches in Southern Illinios, plus the Missouri-Illinois prior to it taking control of the C&EI serving the Southern Illinois coal fields.
Yes...but a quick look at the Mopac "track plan" doesn't seem to indicate that it was an "eastern" RR...assuming that east of the Mississippi is east and west of that river is...well...not east<G>.

And, you will note that I assumed those Mopac hoppers had carried southern Illinois coal to the Great Lakes. That, of course, we don't know. They might have carried metallurgical coal from Arkansas or sand from San Diego...just joking, just joking....

Mike Brock


Re: Mopac hoppers in Bellevue, OH

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "mike brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor says:

Mike,

The MP ran up the EAST side of the Mississippi in Southern Illinois
on joint trackage with the Cotton Belt, to reach East St Louis.
Yes, but that's like saying that UP was an Iowa RR.

Mike Brock
Yes, but the MOP did have a couple of branches in Southern Illinios, plus the Missouri-Illinois prior to it taking control of the C&EI serving the Southern Illinois coal fields.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tony Wagner wrote:
I also occasionally saw cars where it was obvious that someone had taken the trouble to clean off at least the car's number and sometimes the initials too . . .
A number of photos of PFE cars cleaned this way, and none too neatly, do exist.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

anthony wagner
 

I should have been clearer. What I meant by 're-painting' was not painting the
whole car but, in addition to the required periodic reweighing and re-stenciling
which was done routinely on every railroad for both foreign and home road cars,
re-stenciling the road name, or more importantly the car number, if it had
become unreadable on at least one, or both sides of the car. In looking at
photos one occasionally sees a car that was so weathered and/or dirty that it
was difficult to tell who the owner might have been. When I worked as a yard
clerk, writing switch lists manually, it wasn't uncommon to have to take a car's
number off the end or some other less visible location because of paint fade,
rust, or dirt. If all else failed the accompanying waybills could be used,
sometimes by the process of elimination, to determine what the number was. I
also occasionally saw cars where it was obvious that someone had taken the
trouble to clean off at least the car's number and sometimes the initials too,
so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that a car which had not been fully
repainted for twenty years or more might also have received this treatment.
There are also rare photos showing replacement numbers and/or initials in a
different font than the original but that didn't appear to be as common in the
steam/early diesel era than it is now. Tony Wagner




________________________________
From: "SUVCWORR@..." <SUVCWORR@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 7:00:14 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)





As I recall the car was repainted in the P/L of the road then in possession of
the car. It was later identified by the purely PRR trucks and the C/N and
original car number on the center sill. Or I could be thinking of another piece
of lore.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 12:47 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tony--

Until you mentioned this car having been repainted off the PRR, I'd have allowed

that this was within the realm of possibility.

I just don't think that the Pennsy would lend out their stencils to an off-line
road or shop. So given a paint life of 15-25 years, this car would have been
re-painted at least once--off-line?? I suppose some industrious car shop
painter could have either used their road's stencils or made ersatz Pennsy
stencils when it came time to letter the car? I find this a little hard to
believe...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., anthony wagner <anycw1@...> wrote:

Re PRR box cars never going "home": My memory may be faulty but I seem to
recall
reading long ago, probably in "Trains", that in the aftermath of the PC merger

someone in the car service department found records of an X29 that had been
built in the 1920s, loaded offline soon afterward, and had subsequently been
repaired and even repainted on other railroads, then ultimately retired
without
ever having come back to the Pennsy. Don't know if it is true, but having
worked
for a railroad for many years before incentive per diem rules changed things,
it
certainly seems plausible. Tony Wagner

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes

Dave Lotz
 

Tim,

Thanks for the clarification - the caption writer saw the same number that I
did on the photo and wrote the caption accordingly.

I'm aware of the issues with captions, not only in MSBs, but in others as
well, including some that I have written! That is why I included what I had
found in my original post.

It's a shame that the 66000-66249 series are 18" too short to be a match.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 4:32 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes


Dave

Unfortunately, the caption must be for a different phooto!

GN 60200-60224 were built in 1954, and had fishbelly sides. The
photo shows GN 66209, which did indeed have straight sides and
a fishbelly center sill, as Staffan pointed out.

On page 66 is a very clear photograph of GN 60207, equipped for
TOFC service as Staffan said. The series is listed as AAR type FC
in the 1959 and 1965 ORER's -- TOFC service.

Never, EVER assume that a caption in a Morning Sun book is accurate.
Trust? Maybe. But verify!

Tim O'Connor

Steffan,
In David Hickcox's MSB GN All-color book, top of page 63, there is a Paul
Winters photo of GN 60209 and it sure looks like it has straight side sills
to me. The caption says the overall length was 54'2" and a deck space of
53'6"
matching the Q FM-14. That is where I got the number series. Unfortunately,
my
diagram has not been approved for the photo album yet to reference for
comparison.
Dave

-------------------------------
Dave,
The GN 60200 series cars were not straight side sill cars like your Q cars
but with fish belly sides and of course rebuilt (from 65500-65699 flats) for
TOFC service. The GN had one series of straight side sill flats, the
66000-66249 series built in 1945, but they were only 52' over end sills.
Staffan Ehnbom


Re: CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

Unfortunately, the caption must be for a different phooto!

GN 60200-60224 were built in 1954, and had fishbelly sides. The
photo shows GN 66209, which did indeed have straight sides and
a fishbelly center sill, as Staffan pointed out.

On page 66 is a very clear photograph of GN 60207, equipped for
TOFC service as Staffan said. The series is listed as AAR type FC
in the 1959 and 1965 ORER's -- TOFC service.

Never, EVER assume that a caption in a Morning Sun book is accurate.
Trust? Maybe. But verify!

Tim O'Connor



Steffan,
In David Hickcox's MSB GN All-color book, top of page 63, there is a Paul
Winters photo of GN 60209 and it sure looks like it has straight side sills
to me. The caption says the overall length was 54'2" and a deck space of 53'6"
matching the Q FM-14. That is where I got the number series. Unfortunately, my
diagram has not been approved for the photo album yet to reference for comparison.
Dave


-------------------------------
Dave,
The GN 60200 series cars were not straight side sill cars like your Q cars
but with fish belly sides and of course rebuilt (from 65500-65699 flats) for
TOFC service. The GN had one series of straight side sill flats, the
66000-66249 series built in 1945, but they were only 52' over end sills.
Staffan Ehnbom


Re: COINCIDENCES, really?

Tim O'Connor
 

As my Mathematical Logic professor said, "some numbers are more interesting
than others". I once tried proving to him that a number was interesting, but
he wasn't interested...

Tim O'Connor

What all this really does is say more about people's perception and the fact that we are wired to look for patterns than it does about probabilities. The probability that those two cars with the same number were seen coupled together is the same as any other pair of random cars from the same series, but nobody notices when NP 34517 and NWP 34612 are coupled. In the same vein, I'm sure somebody saw car #22222 or #12345 every single day of it's existence, and and it was in some train at least once a week during the same time frame. Nobody would think to comment "I saw a car numbered 22221 today, and last week there was one numbered 12343!".

Pieter Roos
Connecticut


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

Tim O'Connor
 

Ah! The answer is: No.

As you say, the end-door cars have 7 panels to the right of the doors
while the 2-dreadnaught-end cars have 6 panels to the right.



2. A car with one 5/5 end and an A end door with a side panel arrangement of
4/7 [ as opposed to the other car's 4/6 ]. These cars are lettered for UP,
CB&Q, and various other RRs.
So...the question is...was car type #2 done with NO end door.
Mike Brock


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Charles Slator writes,

The correct Santa Fe Fe-24 is Sunshine Models next release and will be out next month at the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society convention in Phoenix. I am building the pilot models for the paper work now. Martin has had decals for all versions of the car.
I am a member of the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society. Will the car be available through the society or do we just go through SS?

Mike Brock


Re: CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes

Dave Lotz
 

Steffan,

In David Hickcox's MSB GN All-color book, top of page 63, there is a Paul
Winters photo of GN 60209 and it sure looks like it has straight side sills
to me. The caption says the overall length was 54'2" and a deck space of 53
' 6" matching the Q FM-14. That is where I got the number series.
Unfortunately, my diagram has not been approved for the photo album yet to
reference for comparison.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]On Behalf Of
Staffan Ehnbom
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 4:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes


Dave,

The GN 60200 series cars were not straight side sill cars like your Q cars
but with fish belly sides and of course rebuilt (from 65500-65699 flats) for
TOFC service. The GN had one series of straight side sill flats, the
66000-66249 series built in 1945, but they were only 52' over end sills.

Staffan Ehnbom

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Lotz
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] CB&Q FM-14 Look-alikes

Hi All,

I'm new to this list and have found the discussions to be very interesting
and informative. Thanks for letting me participate.

I'm primarily a CB&Q modeler and my HO scale layout (which is getting
rebuilt after a move from St. Louis) is centered around Burlington, Iowa.
One of the major rail shippers in Burlington was the J.I. Case plant using
flats to ship in steel, and to ship out combines, backhoe/loaders, crawlers
(bulldozers) and skid-steer loaders. I'd like to mix up the flats that
would have been used out of the factory and was wondering how many railroads
rostered 53' 6" flat cars that were identical in design, or very close to
the CB&Q's straight side sill, fishbelly underframe FM-14 (89100-89250,
92000-92349) and FM-14A flat cars (89300-89599, 92400-92799, 93000-93399).
I've uploaded an image from the Q's diagram book of this car to be posted to
the photo area of the list for comparison purposes.

I've checked the list archives for this information and in my library. I've
found that the ATSF had FT-19s that look similar, the FW&D had ex-Q
FM-14/14A flats (641-676) and the GN had the FC 60200-602224 series flats.

I thought it would be a fun exercise to tap into the collective knowledge of
the list membership and find out which other roads had these 53' 6" flats.
I hope others agree.

Dave Lotz
CB&Q fan from Pooler, GA


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson writes:

Mike, there were two versions of the P2K 50' double door auto car,
one with an A end door and one without. They were otherwise
identical. The side panel arrangement was the same on both.
This is getting confusing. I own and have running 2 versions of the P2k 50 ft 2 door auto car.

1. A car with 5/5 ends...no end door..and what I term a side panel with 4 panels left of the doors and 6 panels to the right...or a 4/6 panel side. Most of my cars are lettered SP A-50-14 and two ATSF Fe-24.

2. A car with one 5/5 end and an A end door with a side panel arrangement of 4/7 [ as opposed to the other car's 4/6 ]. These cars are lettered for UP, CB&Q, and various other RRs.

So...the question is...was car type #2 done with NO end door.

Mike Brock


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

charles slater
 

The correct Santa Fe Fe-24 is Sunshine Models next release and will be out next month at the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society convention in Phoenix. I am building the pilot models for the paper work now. Martin has had decals for all versions of the car.
Charlie Slater




To: STMFC@...
From: @timboconnor
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 01:30:47 -0400
Subject: [STMFC] Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?






Mike

Yes, P2K produced both versions (w/ and w/o end doors) as you describe.

It's similar to the Fe-24, but the riveting (panel arrangement) is not
exactly correct -- only Athearn's ancient 50 ft double door car has the
correct panels for the Fe-24, but of course it comes up short in every
other category.

Tim O'

Does anyone know if P2k produced the 50 ft auto car with 4/7 side panels,
5/5 ends, without end doors? If so, would not this car be fairly close to a
Santa Fe Fe-24? P2k did produce the car with 4/7 sides and one 5/5 end along
with an end door.
Mike Brock


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 19, 2011, at 8:34 AM, mike brock wrote:

Tim O'Connor writes:

Yes, P2K produced both versions (w/ and w/o end doors) as you
describe.
Let's be clear on this. P2K produced a 50 ft car with an end door,
5/5 other
end and a 4/7 panel arrangement. They also produced a 50 ft 5/5 end
car with
a 4/6 side panel arrangement. Are you saying that the first car,
the one
with the 4/7 panels was definitely produced without an end door? I
cannot
find early P2k 50 ft car photos. Yes, I'm aware that the ATSF
Fe-24's side
panels to the right of the doors are not of the same width.
Mike, there were two versions of the P2K 50' double door auto car,
one with an A end door and one without. They were otherwise
identical. The side panel arrangement was the same on both.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: COINCIDENCES, really?

Pieter Roos
 

What all this really does is say more about people's perception and the fact that we are wired to look for patterns than it does about probabilities. The probability that those two cars with the same number were seen coupled together is the same as any other pair of random cars from the same series, but nobody notices when NP 34517 and NWP 34612 are coupled. In the same vein, I'm sure somebody saw car #22222 or #12345 every single day of it's existence, and and it was in some train at least once a week during the same time frame. Nobody would think to comment "I saw a car numbered 22221 today, and last week there was one numbered 12343!".

Pieter Roos
Connecticut


Re: P2k 50 ft auto car with 5/5 ends, 4/7 side panels?

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

Yes, P2K produced both versions (w/ and w/o end doors) as you describe.
Let's be clear on this. P2K produced a 50 ft car with an end door, 5/5 other end and a 4/7 panel arrangement. They also produced a 50 ft 5/5 end car with a 4/6 side panel arrangement. Are you saying that the first car, the one with the 4/7 panels was definitely produced without an end door? I cannot find early P2k 50 ft car photos. Yes, I'm aware that the ATSF Fe-24's side panels to the right of the doors are not of the same width.

Mike Brock


Re: COINCIDENCES

JP Barger
 

Dear Pieter and Kurt et al: Here's a case where an answer became part of
the problem! When I saw Kurt's memo, I immediately thought of the exception,
instead of more carefully reading the conditions Kurt applied. His memo and
Pieter's comments are right on, and mine only apply when one doesn't have an
ORER in hand or the requisite info securely and accurately stored in the
head. Sorry about my rush to alert. Shows what happens when the fingers rush
to the keyboard, before the eyes and the gray matter, if any, do their
homework. Many thanks. JP



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Pieter_Roos
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:09 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: COINCIDENCES





Hello JP;

Umm, then there would not be 100 cars in the series, only 50.

Also IIRC the ORER states when a series in even numbers only. but the car
count would make the point anyway.

Pieter Roos
Connecticut

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "JP Barger"
<bargerjp@...> wrote:

Dear Kurt et al, Only one glitch in your email of 18 May, one thing to be
mindful of, and that is, here and there are car number series numbered
only
with even or odd. Just another little bump in the path to generalizations.
JP Barger



_____

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of Kurt
Laughlin
In this thread I've seen many mentions of "oddly" numbered cars in photos,
almost as if they weren't real without photographic proof. Isn't it quite
reasonable to believe that when an ORER listing has series 12300-12399,
100
cars in service, that car 12345 existed, even if no one ever filmed it?

KL


Re: Mopac hoppers in Bellevue, OH

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor says:

Mike,
The MP ran up the EAST side of the Mississippi in Southern Illinois
on joint trackage with the Cotton Belt, to reach East St Louis.
Yes, but that's like saying that UP was an Iowa RR.

Mike Brock


Re: COINCIDENCES

Pieter Roos
 

Hello JP;

Umm, then there would not be 100 cars in the series, only 50.

Also IIRC the ORER states when a series in even numbers only. but the car count would make the point anyway.

Pieter Roos
Connecticut

--- In STMFC@..., "JP Barger" <bargerjp@...> wrote:

Dear Kurt et al, Only one glitch in your email of 18 May, one thing to be
mindful of, and that is, here and there are car number series numbered only
with even or odd. Just another little bump in the path to generalizations.
JP Barger



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Kurt
Laughlin
In this thread I've seen many mentions of "oddly" numbered cars in photos,
almost as if they weren't real without photographic proof. Isn't it quite
reasonable to believe that when an ORER listing has series 12300-12399, 100
cars in service, that car 12345 existed, even if no one ever filmed it?

KL


Re: COINCIDENCES

JP Barger
 

Dear Kurt et al, Only one glitch in your email of 18 May, one thing to be
mindful of, and that is, here and there are car number series numbered only
with even or odd. Just another little bump in the path to generalizations.
JP Barger



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Kurt
Laughlin
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: COINCIDENCES





In this thread I've seen many mentions of "oddly" numbered cars in photos,
almost as if they weren't real without photographic proof. Isn't it quite
reasonable to believe that when an ORER listing has series 12300-12399, 100
cars in service, that car 12345 existed, even if no one ever filmed it?

KL