Date   

Re: COINCIDENCES

Tim O'Connor
 

A quick check of my disk of JPEG's reveals

CP 123456 (box car)
L&N 12345 (box car)
NP 123456 (log flat)
NRLX 12345 (covered hopper)
SBD 123456 (box car)

Somewhere I have a scan that shows two box cars coupled to each
other, belonging to two different railroads, with the same number.

Tim O'Connor

Steve Lucas wrote:
"A Ted Culotta article in RMC a few years back showed a photo of a CPR "Fowler"
steel-frame 36' boxcar--CP 123456."

From Rich Burg's collection comes a Paul Dunn photo of PRR 123456, Class X28A,
published in several different articles, including an "It Ain't Prototypical"
short in Model Railroader and in my article on Class X28 in TKM (Issue 23).


Ben Hom


Re: UP models under represented?

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

I understand that about you Mike -- So for you, the entire period 1946
to 1954 is as if the UP didn't buy a single new box car.
Well...they must be passing through pretty fast or during the night.

You mentioned
the B-50-40, but that was a pre-1950 PS-1 and no one has ever produced
that model.
Hmmm. I've been wondering who did produce it. No One, huh? Strange name...I don't recall it. The car IS real, BTW, Superior door and welded sides and all.

Mike Brock


Re: Great Northern boxcar

Tim O'Connor
 

I am certain this subject has come up before, but I can't locate the
emails. GN rebuilt 50' single sheathed, single and double door auto cars
with steel sides in the 1950's. The single door cars can be modeled
with the Westerfield kits which have the fishbelly underframe and ends
needed for the project. It looks like this double door car got new ends
as well as a new roof.

I have a photo of one of the cars, Richard Hendrickson's model of
GN 39345, which is a single sheathed car painted in the Empire Builder
scheme.

Tim O'Connor

----------------------------------------------

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=205357&nseq=134

From Scott R. Thompson's "Great Northern Color Pictorial - Vol 1", page 90:
Series 40100 to 40299 - rebuilt from outside braced box cars in 1954 -
original series - 29000 to 29899 - built 1925.
Outside steel sheathing, Pullman ends and roof, upgrade brake equipment.
Two 7' wide Camel doors, Universal handbrake, friction bearing trucks.
IL = 50' 6"
IW = 9' 2"
IH = 10' 6"
4862 cubic capacity
110,000 load capacity.
Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Steve;

There are PRR cars in paint so terrible, the road forced to fix and reweigh
the car couldn't read the road name, and had to stencil the reporting marks
and car number from the underframe, on a new paint patch.

I did a model of an X29B repatched and stenciled by another road, using their
own lettering. It is definitely not close to PRR lettering!

Funny as #$%%

Elden

Tony--
Until you mentioned this car having been repainted off the PRR, I'd have
allowed that this was within the realm of possibility.

I just don't think that the Pennsy would lend out their stencils to an
off-line road or shop. So given a paint life of 15-25 years, this car would
have been re-painted at least once--off-line?? I suppose some industrious car
shop painter could have either used their road's stencils or made ersatz
Pennsy stencils when it came time to letter the car? I find this a little
hard to believe...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , anthony
wagner <anycw1@...> wrote:

Re PRR box cars never going "home": My memory may be faulty but I seem
to recall reading long ago, probably in "Trains", that in the
aftermath of the PC merger someone in the car service department found
records of an X29 that had been built in the 1920s, loaded offline
soon afterward, and had subsequently been repaired and even repainted
on other railroads, then ultimately retired without ever having come
back to the Pennsy. Don't know if it is true, but having worked for a
railroad for many years before incentive per diem rules changed
things, it certainly seems plausible. Tony Wagner





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: NMRA Conventions

Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Tony - I couldn't disagree more. Until last year I had given a clinic at the national for about 20 straight years. I never expected anything. I occasionally got a presenter's badge, a certificate or even a plaque. This is a volunteer organization. I LOVE to give clinics. In fact, I often carry one around with me to a meeting in case of a no-show. If giving a clinic is too much of a bother without getting compensation, don't volunteer. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NMRA Conventions


Great. Simpler and cheaper convention administration, at the
expense of the volunteer clinician. Not an approach I approve of,
Doug. Fairness in comps or other support is a legitimate worry, but
solving it by stiffing ALL clinicians is a solution which I'd
characterize as simple, appealing, and wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: COINCIDENCES

Bill Welch
 

My Sunshine model of an ATSF Bx10 is numbered 123456 from the prototype photo I have.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
"A Ted Culotta article in RMC a few years back showed a photo of a CPR "Fowler"
steel-frame 36' boxcar--CP 123456."

From Rich Burg's collection comes a Paul Dunn photo of PRR 123456, Class X28A,
published in several different articles, including an "It Ain't Prototypical"
short in Model Railroader and in my article on Class X28 in TKM (Issue 23).


Ben Hom 


Re: COINCIDENCES

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
"A Ted Culotta article in RMC a few years back showed a photo of a CPR "Fowler"
steel-frame 36' boxcar--CP 123456."

From Rich Burg's collection comes a Paul Dunn photo of PRR 123456, Class X28A,
published in several different articles, including an "It Ain't Prototypical"
short in Model Railroader and in my article on Class X28 in TKM (Issue 23).


Ben Hom


Re: NMRA Conventions

Rhbale@...
 

Last year, Naperville attendees received free ducats to the IHobby Expo at
Rosemont. I don't recall if they were good any day or if there were some
restrictions. No confirmation yet but I know Joe D'Elia is currently
negotiating for free passes again this year.

Richard Bale
Read Model Railroad Hobbyist magaZine, its always FREE at _mrhmag.com

In a message dated 5/18/2011 1:06:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gsgondola@... writes:




Speaking of shows, it just dawned on me that the Naperville (now Lisle)
meet is
currently scheduled for the same weekend as the Rosemont iHobby Expo (or
whatever it's
now called). First time in 10(?) years? I will probably go to Rosemont
Sunday, unless
somehow I can rep for somebody and get in on Thursday. Has been a while, I
think 03 was
the last time I went to the Rosemont show.

Andy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
"Until you mentioned this car having been repainted off the PRR, I'd have
allowed

that this was within the realm of possibility.

I just don't think that the Pennsy would lend out their stencils to an off-line
road or shop. So given a paint life of 15-25 years, this car would have been
re-painted at least once--off-line?? I suppose some industrious car shop painter

could have either used their road's stencils or made ersatz Pennsy stencils when

it came time to letter the car? I find this a little hard to believe..."

"Repainted" is perhaps too strong a word.  I have several photos from the Bob's
Photo collection and in the PRR Color Guides showing partial repaints of PRR
reporting marks using non-standard stencils on heavily weathered cars.


Ben Hom


Re: COINCIDENCES

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

A Ted Culotta article in RMC a few years back showed a photo of a CPR "Fowler" steel-frame 36' boxcar--CP 123456.

I should add that working railroaders that I've known usually look at or use the last three car numbers when switching, making a cut, or referencing cars, i.e. "a CP 456".

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "stvvallee" <stvvallee@...> wrote:


Dear Group...

While looking through the May, 1944 issue of Railroad Magazine, I spotted this item on page 125:


...."Coincidences such as two boxcars with identical numbers on the same train are more tare than four-leaf clovers, but this one actually happened last November 17th with cars of the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha and the Northwestern Pacific both numbered 15643 on a train of the Milwaukee Road. Dean E. Ickens of Malden,Wash., was a brakeman in the crew; Edgar Dubel was conductor.

"When we left Othello, Wash., on that date, running east as Extra 59," Dean explains, "we had 76 CMStPM&O boxcars and we picked up the NWP car at Marengo, Wash. Another oddity on this train was an Omaha Line boxcar numbered 22222---five digits all the same!"....


I'm sure if any of the Group tried this on their layouts, the laughter would be endless from their guests.

Steve Vallee


Re: SRDX 410

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 18, 2011, at 8:21 AM, @smithbf wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., William Keene <wakeene@...> wrote:

Hello Group,

I see that the photos have been approved and are available for
reviewing.

Any assistance and suggestions on modeling this tank car will be
greatly appreciated.
Bill,

The car appears to be a 10,000 gallon AC&F type 11 tank car. The
spotting features are the flat stub end sills (with the channel
facing in... later AC&F cars have the channel facing out) and the
single rows of circumferential rivets on the tank. If the rivets
were in double rows, then it would be an AC&F type 17 car. There
are currently no mass produced models of this car, however it seems
to be a relatively straightforward kitbash. I would use a P2K 10K
tank and remove the top longitudinal course seams and rivets
leaving the bottom course. Replace the upper courses with bare
metal foil circumferential courses and add a single row of Archer
rivets. Use the F&C "TM8", aka "type 2" tank car frame. The
biggest stumbling block might be the dome, but it appears that the
P2K dome might work with mods such as the hatch and safety valves.
Bruce is correct in identifying the car as a10K gal. AC&F Type 11.
Large numbers of both 8K and 10K Type 11s were built in the 'teens
for the Cosden Petroleum Co. of Tulsa and operated under COSX
reporting marks. In 1925 the Cosden holdings were restructured as
the Mid-Continent Petroleum Co., though the tank cars continued to
operate under COSX reporting marks. In the 1920s Mid-Continent
marketed its gasoline and other products under the name Diamond, and
a wholesale and retail marketing effort resulted in a large chain of
Diamond service stations in the central U.S. from Texas to the
Canadian border. In 1933 the gasoline was rebranded as D-X, and by
World War II the Diamond stations had become D-X service stations.
In addition to carrying its own products, the Mid-Continent tank car
fleet included a sizable number of cars under OSKX reporting marks
and, through the Oil States Tank Car Co. subsidiary, these cars were
leased to other petroleum shippers. In 1955 Mid-Continent merged
with the Sunray Oil Co. to form the D-X Sunray Oil Co. and in the
late '50s the tank cars were gradually restencied with SDRX reporting
marks as they came in to the shops for repainting.

I can't agree with Bruce that modeling a 10K gal. car would be "a
relatively straightforward kitbash." For one thing, the P2K dome is
too large and scratchbuilding a correct size dome with the safeties
on a side-mounted elbow would not be easy. A simpler approach, if
you don't insist on a 10K car, would be to build the F&C resin kit
for an 8K Type 11. I am attaching to an off-list e-mail photo scans
of both the 8K and 10K Mid-Continent Type 11s with P/L schemes that
were current in the early 1950s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: NMRA Conventions

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I've been on both sides of this, as a clinician at the divisional/regional/national levels and as an NMRA
division super for a couple of years.

I personally found that maybe 3% to 5% of the membership of my division at that time would give clinics. IMHO, good clinicians are worth their weight in gold. Comps for a basic convention are cheap enough to give out when you consider the benefits of having clinicians.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Doug Auburg wrote:
As a result of discussions about this topic several years ago it was
decided that the simplest and best solution was to not offer "comps"
to clinicians, or layout tour owners. That decision may or may not
have been the "right" one, but it most certainly has made the
organization and administration of conventions easier, saved hurt
feelings of some clinicians, and kept fees down by eliminating the
costs associated with "comping."
Great. Simpler and cheaper convention administration, at the
expense of the volunteer clinician. Not an approach I approve of,
Doug. Fairness in comps or other support is a legitimate worry, but
solving it by stiffing ALL clinicians is a solution which I'd
characterize as simple, appealing, and wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Great Northern boxcar (UNCLASSIFIED)

Steve Haas
 

<<THAT is one cool box car. Thanks for those details, Steve! What service
did GN intend these to be in? Were the sides welded? Were there any
special features?>>

Eldon,

Riveted sides. The book makes no statement as to use. No "When Empty
Return to ... " markings on the car in the photo, either.

Best regards,

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Tony--

Until you mentioned this car having been repainted off the PRR, I'd have allowed that this was within the realm of possibility.

I just don't think that the Pennsy would lend out their stencils to an off-line road or shop. So given a paint life of 15-25 years, this car would have been re-painted at least once--off-line?? I suppose some industrious car shop painter could have either used their road's stencils or made ersatz Pennsy stencils when it came time to letter the car? I find this a little hard to believe...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., anthony wagner <anycw1@...> wrote:

Re PRR box cars never going "home": My memory may be faulty but I seem to recall
reading long ago, probably in "Trains", that in the aftermath of the PC merger
someone in the car service department found records of an X29 that had been
built in the 1920s, loaded offline soon afterward, and had subsequently been
repaired and even repainted on other railroads, then ultimately retired without
ever having come back to the Pennsy. Don't know if it is true, but having worked
for a railroad for many years before incentive per diem rules changed things, it
certainly seems plausible. Tony Wagner


Re: COINCIDENCES

dreestho
 


...."Coincidences such as two boxcars with identical numbers on the same train are more tare than four-leaf clovers, but this one actually happened <snip>
How about one car with different numbers on the two sides? That one (a CP 348xxx Hart gon) I actually spotted while doing a yard check at South Porcupine (Ontario Northland) back in the '70s.

David Rees-Thomas


Re: NMRA Conventions

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Doug Auburg wrote:
As a result of discussions about this topic several years ago it was decided that the simplest and best solution was to not offer "comps" to clinicians, or layout tour owners. That decision may or may not have been the "right" one, but it most certainly has made the organization and administration of conventions easier, saved hurt feelings of some clinicians, and kept fees down by eliminating the costs associated with "comping."
Great. Simpler and cheaper convention administration, at the expense of the volunteer clinician. Not an approach I approve of, Doug. Fairness in comps or other support is a legitimate worry, but solving it by stiffing ALL clinicians is a solution which I'd characterize as simple, appealing, and wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


NMRA Conventions

Doug Auburg
 

Bill Welch wrote:
What was irksome to me however, was that the NMRA requires clinicians to
pay the same registration fee everyone else does, which to me seems
shortsighted and parsimonious in the extreme. Maybe things have changed. I
hope so. Presenters should get a free pass.



Bill,



I can offer some perspective on this from my past experience with the
convention organization in my former volunteer role as NMRA Convention
Clinic Chair for the past six years - ending with my retirement after
Milwaukee. I do believe there is an NMRA policy in regard to this for
National conventions.



This is a classic slippery slope situation. You propose that clinicians get
free registration. Maybe there should be a partial registration discount?
But in the past, some clinicians have gotten comped rooms as well. Some
conventions have comped transportation to VIP clinicians. Who knows,
perhaps VIP clinicians have been comped meals as well in the past (these
last couple of examples relate to regional conventions but the principle
applies). So we have a wide range of freebees that have been or are being
offered to clinicians in various venues. All perfectly ethical and legal.
I believe the National Narrow Gauge Convention offers clinicians benefits of
some sort.



Now let's look at some of the results of this approach. One problem is
clinicians refusing to do their clinic unless they "get the same deal as
John Doe got." Some clinicians start bargaining for a better deal.
Clinicians ask "Why does Joe Smith get XYZ and I don't? Aren't I as good a
he is?" How do we answer that question w/o hurting feelings or giving away
some more benefits to the ones who complain? The convention committee finds
itself in a position of deciding which clinician is "worth" what special
benefit. Clinicians find themselves in a situation where some are deciding
to do clinics based on considerations of personal gain instead of doing them
to help fellow members and share their knowledge. What about those who open
up their layouts for layout tours? What should they be comped? Are clinics
more or less valuable than layouts. What about great layouts vs. "not so
good" layouts that still have points of interest?



Someone said earlier in this discussion words to the effect that
"conventions aren't in business to make a profit, but they are in business
to not lose money." I'd like to partially disagree. The NMRA national (and
often regions and divisions who host conventions) needs to make some money
from the National conventions in order to help cover its costs and fund its
programs. No profit, and there's a need to raise member dues to cover those
costs or drop the programs. Some seem to believe that there's something
wrong with a convention making a profit, but it seems to me that the NMRA
and the host committee are going to a lot of effort to create and operate a
convention. Attendees get the chance to see things, hear things and do
things that they would never be able to do w/o that convention. So what's
wrong with there being a small increment of profit built into the pricing so
that NMRA national, regional and divisional activities can be funded from a
profit resulting from that small margin? We're providing a service and
benefit to the attendees, why should they not be asked to pay for it? All
of the "comped" items above have to be paid for at the bottom line because
they all amount to costs of one sort or another. The more "comping" the
higher the convention fees need to be. So that gets us back to the other
complaint about NMRA National conventions: "They are too expensive."



As a result of discussions about this topic several years ago it was decided
that the simplest and best solution was to not offer "comps" to clinicians,
or layout tour owners. That decision may or may not have been the "right"
one, but it most certainly has made the organization and administration of
conventions easier, saved hurt feelings of some clinicians, and kept fees
down by eliminating the costs associated with "comping."



Doug Auburg


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tony(s);

I would love to see that, too. I love those stories.

I can certainly attest that there were PRR cars, rebuilt in the 40's and
painted into the then-current "Circle Keystone" lettering, which were
directed to "come home" for repainting, through the 1950's, and never made it
home. Photos of these cars exist, decades after they were rebuilt, in the
rebuilt P&L.

Sometime things don't work out like you planned....

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:55 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Underrepresented roads and car types



Tony Wagner wrote:
Re PRR box cars never going "home": My memory may be faulty but I seem
to recall reading long ago, probably in "Trains", that in the
aftermath of the PC merger someone in the car service department found
records of an X29 that had been built in the 1920s, loaded offline
soon afterward, and had subsequently been repaired and even repainted
on other railroads, then ultimately retired without ever having come
back to the Pennsy. Don't know if it is true, but having worked for a
railroad for many years before incentive per diem rules changed
things, it certainly seems plausible.
Sounds like an urban legend, but would be nice to see documentation if it's
true.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: SRDX 410

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Bruce and group,

Thank you for your comments and recommendations.

I have a few P2K tank car kits on the shelf so there is a starting point on hand.

And yes, the lettering is from a period in the future. I wonder how this tank car would have been lettered in 1953?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On May 18, 2011, at 8:21 AM, @smithbf wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., William Keene <wakeene@...> wrote:

Hello Group,

I see that the photos have been approved and are available for reviewing.

Any assistance and suggestions on modeling this tank car will be greatly appreciated.
Bill,

The car appears to be a 10,000 gallon AC&F type 11 tank car. The spotting features are the flat stub end sills (with the channel facing in... later AC&F cars have the channel facing out) and the single rows of circumferential rivets on the tank. If the rivets were in double rows, then it would be an AC&F type 17 car. There are currently no mass produced models of this car, however it seems to be a relatively straightforward kitbash. I would use a P2K 10K tank and remove the top longitudinal course seams and rivets leaving the bottom course. Replace the upper courses with bare metal foil circumferential courses and add a single row of Archer rivets. Use the F&C "TM8", aka "type 2" tank car frame. The biggest stumbling block might be the dome, but it appears that the P2K dome might work with mods such as the hatch and safety valves.

Lettering looks to be after the period of this group.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: COINCIDENCES (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Steve;

Your guests are sharper than mine. I had a guest who I had to repeatedly
tell his car was on fire. He kept talking to one of the other guests...

I was also asked to host a guest that one regular did NOT like. The regular
asked me to add a chalkmark he had done a decal for, that directly insulted
said guest, by name, which I then applied to one of my gondolas, and then ran
during the session in full view. No, he talked so much he never caught it,
although most regulars were in stitches.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
stvvallee
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] COINCIDENCES




Dear Group...

While looking through the May, 1944 issue of Railroad Magazine, I spotted
this item on page 125:

...."Coincidences such as two boxcars with identical numbers on the same
train are more tare than four-leaf clovers, but this one actually happened
last November 17th with cars of the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha
and the Northwestern Pacific both numbered 15643 on a train of the Milwaukee
Road. Dean E. Ickens of Malden,Wash., was a brakeman in the crew; Edgar Dubel
was conductor.

"When we left Othello, Wash., on that date, running east as Extra 59," Dean
explains, "we had 76 CMStPM&O boxcars and we picked up the NWP car at
Marengo, Wash. Another oddity on this train was an Omaha Line boxcar numbered
22222---five digits all the same!"....

I'm sure if any of the Group tried this on their layouts, the laughter would
be endless from their guests.

Steve Vallee





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE