Date   

Re: NMRA convention (was Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit the mainstream) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

The problem with those technologies is that many people loan us images of the
prototype, for presentations, but for which they retain the rights. The
presentations are for educational purposes, otherwise they would not loan
them (i.e., "not for profit").

When people post images to big sites, they lose the image to the etherworld.


Here's an example: I gave a presentation on PRR's foray into the coil car
arena, for which many people loaned me images. One guy kept setting up a
tripod, and I then had to remind everyone that they could not record it, on
any media. He was obviously miffed, so I explained it.

I then noticed that when the room went dark, he attempted to do it again, and
was asked to leave. I was told later that this guy sells DVDs of
presentations on ebay.

Sounds like a good little small business operation, but he was making money
on images that other people own and could have also done so with.

We cannot risk enraging the people that support us through their generous
loan of their images, or we lose access to those images.

It's one thing when presentations focus entirely on models or contain images
owned by the presenter, but you have to watch it with proprietary imagery.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Denis
Blake
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 9:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: NMRA convention (was Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers
hit the mainstream)



Darn Tim, I thought I was doing good to buy a digital projector for the
Marion Meet this year. Now you are wanting folks to tape the clinics and the
like and post them on YouTube!!!

Denis Blake
North Hamlet Shops, Ohio

2011 Central Ohio Prototype Modelers Meet, May 19-21

http://www.hansmanns.org/meet/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/manage/#!/pages/Central-Ohio-Prototype-Modelers
-Meet/326645470797
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 6:21 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NMRA convention (was Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit
the mainstream)

Ya know... almost any smart phone can now take HD video & audio good enough
to post to Youtube. It would be great if the NMRA or just anyone would simply
"tape" each clinic and post it to Youtube. I'd LOVE to be able to travel to
Sacramento and attend the meet, but I can't. I'd be happy to make a small
donation to a fund that supported such an effort.

Same comment applies to RPM meets like Naperville, Cocoa Beach, etc. We (as a
whole) are slow to adopt these wonderful web-based sharing services.

Tim O'Connor

For those of us with a keen interest in the subject but are unable to
attend the convention, is there a way we can plug into the information
presented, maybe in summary form? Is there a Web site that might
present such information post-convention? Just hoping. . . .
Thanks much,
Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa
------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gene;

You're not insulting the PRR by stating that a lot of PRR cars on the MStL
ended up with hot boxes.

There were just a lot of PRR cars in most locations in the country. PRR had
a lot of its box cars get picked up by Midwestern roads for use in grain
service, in your time. Lots of general service box cars rarely came home to
PRR rails, and correspondence indicates the PRR was concerned about not ever
seeing these cars.

I think some of it was that some cars series were intended for rebuilding,
but they could only grab up what ended up back on PRR rails; it was not like
they didn't appreciate the payments, right?

So, if you had a lot of old PRR gen service box cars on the MStL, it is
probable a good number could end up getting sent to the shop with a hot box.

Your statistics were fun to look at,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 9:19 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Underrepresented roads and car types



OK, Bruce Smith in message 100189 and Tony Thompson in message 100192 have
set me straight.

In my own case, using the Landmesser hot box list may lead me astray. To be
on the list, which was created in 1948, 1949 and 1950, a car had to be set
out or delay a train for some reason such as a hot box.

This list provides evidence that a specific car was on the M&StL and usually
also gives train # and load. That latter piece of info is interesting, useful
and, in many cases, something I couldn't have thought of for myself.

The question is, were these hot box cars evenly distributed throughout all
the car types and railroads that had cars on the M&StL? For example, of a
total of 1331 entries there are 39 NYC cars and 68 PRR cars. Does that mean
nearly twice as many PRR cars as NYC cars on the M&StL or were PRR cars more
prone to hot boxes? (No insult of PRR intended.) Is one car type more prone
to hot boxes than another?

In line with what has been said in other posts more than half were box cars.

74 flat cars (26 of which are M&StL)
112 gondolas (18 are M&StL)
53 hopper cars (36 are M&StL)
8 covered hoppers (all M&StL)
130 refrigerator cars (none M&StL)
12 stock cars (10 M&StL)
97 tank cars (none M&StL)
5 ventilated box cars (none M&StL)
750 box cars (88 M&StL)
85 unknown types (none M&StL)

This won't quite add up to 1331 because cabooses with hot boxes were not
included above.

In the case of covered hoppers and stock cars, I know just what I should do.
Beyond that ? ? ?

Or is all this academic? After all, short of scratch building one can only
have the models that exist whether RTR or kit.

Gene Green





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Great Northern boxcar (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

THAT is one cool box car. Thanks for those details, Steve! What service did
GN intend these to be in? Were the sides welded? Were there any special
features?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve
Haas
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:16 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Great Northern boxcar



<<This photo shows a NYC FA but in the background a GN 50' boxcar that
appears to be an early underframe with new sides. Anyone have an idea?

Mark Morgan

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=205357&nseq=134>>

Mark,

From Scott R. Thompson's "Great Northern Color Pictorial - Vol 1", page 90:

Series 40100 to 40299 - rebuilt from outside braced box cars in 1954 -
original series - 29000 to 29899 - built 1925.

Outside steel sheathing, Pullman ends and roof, upgrade brake equipment.
Two 7' wide Camel doors, Universal handbrake, friction bearing trucks.

IL = 50' 6"
IW = 9' 2"
IH = 10' 6"
4862 cubic capacity
110,000 load capacity.

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Armand Premo
 

Now that all the falderal has about ended, my original question remains only partially answered.The question was about Roads and NOT cars.The point that I intended to raise was that some roads have been neglected.It had nothing to do with G-N or any other theory.Simply put, some ROADS have completely been ignored.Maybe my question was poorly worded or misinterpreted ,but what I thought would result was not a rehash of freight car distribution and all the caveats(.Don't confuse me with facts my mind is already made up) Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949



Dave Evans wrote:
> Lets see, Greenland was once farmland - but I guess we did
> something to turn it into a block of ice - and even now we haven't
> melted it... It all depends on the era you select to analyze the
> very limited data - just like freight car distribution.... sigh.

Well, indeed, let's see. A few seaside valleys in south
coastal Greenland were farmland, for about a century, while the entire
interior was the same block of ice it is today (we know because we've
drilled all the way through it). Even today, those valleys are green
in summer, but too cool to farm--at least European-style farming which
the Vikings insisted on trying. The temperature shift involved was
small. And luckily, even though the glaciers there are retreating now,
so far we haven't raised sea level much.
But this doesn't have a great deal to do with freight cars,
nor did my swipe at Armand. Apologies to all for that.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Re: NMRA convention

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Reminds me of an NMRA/NFR regional years ago where everyone seemed to be attending John Armstrong's clinic. It was nice having the better part of an hour to talk uninterrupted with Wayne Wesoloswki about model-building techniques. I may have learnt 1/10,000th of what he knows from that meeting...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> wrote:

At 12:01 AM 5/18/2011 +0000, you wrote:
Would posting clinics on the web become a reason NOT to attend a
convention because the clinic part would later be available for free or
little cost?
Wouldn't make any difference to me. I've been to 9 NMRA conventions, and
in that time, probably less than 9 clinics. I don't really go to shows -
or RPM meets - for the clinics, strange as it may seem. I usually have to
be reminded to go to my own clinic, otherwise I'd still be shooting the
bull in the model room.

Andy


Re: Rivets

Aley, Jeff A
 

Matt,

URL's do not have to be approved by the STMFC Moderators. On the other hand, if you were to upload the images directly to STMFC, they would have to be approved.

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Deputy Moderator, STMFC


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:20 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Rivets



Jack Burgess wrote:

I think you will get what you pay for. I've seen a closeup of the MM rivets and they in no way compare to the Archer rivets. They might look okay initially but you might very well be disappointed after painting. If you feel they will be okay, go ahead and buy a sheet but I'd suggest applying them to a piece of styrene and then painting them...it would be frustrating to use them, paint the model, and then find out that they lack relief.
Group,

Jack is TOTALLY spot-on here.

There has been some recent discussion about the new MicroMark rivets, and their very reasonable pricing.

I do a lot of scratch and custom building for myself and others, and thought I'd lend my 2cents, based on personal observations.

What MM is putting out looks great on the sheet to the naked eye, but if you look more closely, you might just be dismayed. After application to the model and once painted (as Jack mentioned), the issues with the product will be come obvious.

The black areas on the sheet appear to be crisp and well defined, the result of a simple printing of black ink. However, the thing that gives a product like this depth and dimension is the clear placed on top, and therein lies the problem.

There is no precision application of the clear top-coat on top of the printed image, just random puddles that are clearly visible on their tread plate and can also be seen on the rivets.

I have made a close up scan of the product, that I have posted on my website. I did not include the link in the post, as I would then have to wait for approval. If you wish to see the MM product up close, please contact me directly, mforsyth127 at yahoo dot com, and I will provide you with the URL.

Tougher to see in the scan is that their louvers are only partially covered by random puddles of clear, resulting in just randomly shaped, raised areas.

As I said, looks great on the sheet, and with the black base color printed below, your eyes will be tricked into thinking that the details are sharp, but once a colored top coat is applied, and the black printed base disappears, what you'll then see are just poorly defined random blobs and puddles.

Given what I have observed, I think I'll be sticking with Archer.

Just an FYI...

Thanks,

Matt Forsyth
Modeling the D&H Penn Division
Erie Jefferson Division
in Proto 5-0, late summer of 1950


Re: NMRA Conventions

Doug Auburg
 

I’d like to chip in with a couple comments, based upon my experience as Chair of the NMRA Convention Clinics program for the past 6 years (Cincinnati through Milwaukee) – now retired from that post.



1. Regarding attendee video recording of clinics. We have prominently posted in the convention programs that video recording of clinics is to be done only with the express permission of the clinician. I am not aware of any attendee visibly violating that policy, though it is certainly possible that someone used a cell phone to do so in a secretive manner. We in the Clinic Office advised clinicians of this policy whenever the opportunity presented itself.



2. Gerry Leone and I have video recorded a wide variety of clinics in those years for use by the Kalmbach Memorial Library. For those of us who have been in the NMRA for a long time, these clinics are the modern equivalent of what was the “NMRA Tape-Slide Clinic Program” of the 50’s and onward. Gerry took the raw material and added titles, credits for the clinician and photographer as well as labels and provided them to the Library. Brent Lambert, the KML Librarian, has placed several ads in the “Scale Rails” and now the “NMRA.org Magazine” telling members that they can check these clinics out for personal or Division use for the cost of return postage. We obtained written permission from each and every clinician that we recorded before doing so after we explained exactly what we proposed to do and why. If the clinician was not interested in participating in this sharing of his/her clinic with the membership, no recording was done.



3. As for Richard Hendrickson’s comment about a club posting his handout w/o permission or appropriate attribution. That would have no connection with the NMRA or its clinic program administration. Rather some attendee must have gotten an handout and posted it. If this had happened to me, I would contact the club and ask that they take down my copyrighted material or, if I didn’t mind its posting, ask them to properly attribute it to me as its author. I suspect that when faced with such requests, the vast majority would do as requested.



Doug Auburg









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NMRA convention

Andy Harman
 

At 03:59 AM 5/18/2011 +0000, you wrote:
I have never presented at an NMRA national convention, but have presented at regionals where my registration fee was waived.
I've gotten some partial expense reimbursements when I've traveled to out of town RPM meets to do a clinic, but I think only once have I gotten in free.

Andy


Re: NMRA convention

Andy Harman
 

At 11:57 PM 5/17/2011 -0400, you wrote:

Jack, exactly. Meets are, above all, social gatherings. I've never gone to
attend clinics -- I've gone to attend clinics WITH my hobby friends and share
our knowledge, stories and modeling with one another. I doubt that having
the clinics online would detract from attendance.
I am quite sure that in order for me to sit through a 45 or 60 minute clinic video - especially on a 6" window - it better be of absolute fascination to me. I have a difficult time paying attention in any "classroom" situation (just ask any of the dozens of unfortunate souls who were my teachers back in the day) and I have one heck of a time focusing on a single speaker for more than about 5 minutes. Unless he's VERY good at holding attention, and the subject holds me all by itself.

So I could see maybe watching a video of a clinic. I use the singular. I see guys who come to RPM meets and you never see them or even know they're there because they run from clinic to clinic and complain if two they want to see are running at the same time. My brain would frost if I attempted it. I guess those guys were all straight A students with masters and PhDs.

Andy



What Youtube videos COULD do is help us to REMEMBER what we heard in a
clinic. I wish I could watch Lloyd Keyser's brass kitbashing clinic over
and over, because he showed how to cut up a brass model, build soldering
jigs, fabricate new parts, etc -- These are not details that can be truly
absorbed in one go! I wish I had the whole "Lloyd Keyser collection" :-)

Tim O'Connor



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: UP models under represented?

Tim O'Connor
 

I understand that about you Mike -- So for you, the entire period 1946
to 1954 is as if the UP didn't buy a single new box car. You mentioned
the B-50-40, but that was a pre-1950 PS-1 and no one has ever produced
that model. I agree that with Archer rivets, you can kitbash a few of the
postwar 40' and 50' box cars. But more than rivets are involved, too.

Actually the UP box cars I most desire are prewar -- the A-50-14 and
A-50-15. They're a challenge to model because of their S corner ends.
SP modelers don't have to worry -- Sunshine gave us the A-50-12 kit.

Tim O'Connor

Perhaps I should have been more clear. To paraphrase Jon Miller, Time for me
stops in 1953/4. I don't care what happened in 1955 or later...that's in the
future. And, while we are missing some cars and others might not be perfect,
I don't complain too loud about the missing cars...up to June 1954. In fact,
it amazes me that an H-70-1 was built.

Mike Brock


Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals

al_brown03
 

I got impatient and cobbled up decals from other sources. The fine 5th Avenue Shops decals are, as Schuyler says, "well illustrated" by his and Denny's gorgeous models.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Or if you have RMC from April 2011 , there is a photo of my model and Denny
Anspach's better model on page 99. Al Brown's model is on the next page.
The DT&I decals are well illustrated there.


SGL



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Douglas Harding
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 4:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals





Bill look for photos of the Cocoa Beach event, specifically photos of shake
& take models. Or search for the shake n take yahoo list, where you should
find photos, instructions and helpful advice.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org










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Re: NMRA convention

Andy Harman
 

At 12:01 AM 5/18/2011 +0000, you wrote:
Would posting clinics on the web become a reason NOT to attend a convention because the clinic part would later be available for free or little cost?
Wouldn't make any difference to me. I've been to 9 NMRA conventions, and in that time, probably less than 9 clinics. I don't really go to shows - or RPM meets - for the clinics, strange as it may seem. I usually have to be reminded to go to my own clinic, otherwise I'd still be shooting the bull in the model room.

Andy


Re: NMRA convention

Andy Harman
 

At 07:46 PM 5/17/2011 -0400, you wrote:

On the other extreme, I've received MANY requests simply to use a
quote from an email that I posted to this list!! Now, this is a public
forum, and when I post here I have absolutely no intention of claiming
that I own the copyright to my email messages. But many people seem
to bend over backwards, and ask for permission to quote me out of
sheer politeness I guess. Of course I always say yes, sure, go ahead
and use the quote, for what it's worth.
Long time ago, I wrote some song reviews - really just a commentary - on a usenet forum. Entirely my own words. About a year later, I stumbled across my post - verbatim - posted to a "wedding" forum. The person who lifted my post added a few lines like "would be great for weddings" but otherwise didn't alter my text. And of course my name was completely removed from it. I just made a post claiming it and citing my original, and the perpetrator was never heard from again... pretty funny actually because I caught him in the act.

I've found positively ancient stuff of mine out on the web, with my name still attached to it - so I've gotten credit even for stuff I probably wish I could forget :-)

Of course there are a few people who love to say that I said this or that, or "always was against such and such" but can provide nothing in the 16 years worth of usenet and yahoo and every other archive out there to back it up.

Andy




Which I guess is my way of saying that if I wrote something that I
wanted to publish and copyright, I would NOT post it here first. :-)

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------------

I will add to this that it has recently come to my attention that a
model RR club has published on its website, intact, the handout for a
clinic I did several years ago. No problem there; I gave the clinic
for the purpose of disseminating information. However, on the club
website there is NO credit given, no acknowledgment of the source, no
mention of my name. It's as though the handout text was originated
by some nameless club member, or perhaps it sprang forth from the
right hand of God and is therefore automatically in the public
domain. And that's not okay. The electronic media provide entirely
too generous an opportunity for rip-offs of this sort.
Richard Hendrickson



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: NMRA convention

Jared Harper
 

Bill,
I have never presented at an NMRA national convention, but have presented at regionals where my registration fee was waived.
Jared Harper
Athens, GA

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

What was irksome to me however, was that the NMRA requires clinicians to pay the same registration fee everyone else does, which to me seems shortsighted and parsimonious in the extreme. Maybe things have changed. I hope so. Presenters should get a free pass.


Re: NMRA convention

Andy Harman
 

At 07:33 PM 5/17/2011 -0400, you wrote:
No argument with that Jack. A video of a clinic is not the same
as the clinic itself. And a printable/publishable document is an
entirely different animal.
I videotaped my own clinic at Cocoa Beach this year, and I guess even that would be banned by the Sacramento convention center. I did it not to post to youtube - which I wouldn't do even if not for the fact that 50% of the photos are not mine. But it will come in handy to review since I'm due to give the same clinic at Marion in a couple of days, and it might be nice to remember what I'm supposed to say. Clinics are only fresh in my mind if I'm pasting the last photo into the presentation while the chairs are filling up in the clinic room.

Andy


Re: NMRA convention

Tim O'Connor
 

Jack Burgess wrote

Think of Naperville and Cocoa Beach...if enough modelers choose not to
attend thinking they can see all of the clinics online, this type of
convention might cease to exist (although the interaction with other modelers
can't be experienced online although that could be added).


Jack, exactly. Meets are, above all, social gatherings. I've never gone to
attend clinics -- I've gone to attend clinics WITH my hobby friends and share
our knowledge, stories and modeling with one another. I doubt that having
the clinics online would detract from attendance.

What Youtube videos COULD do is help us to REMEMBER what we heard in a
clinic. I wish I could watch Lloyd Keyser's brass kitbashing clinic over
and over, because he showed how to cut up a brass model, build soldering
jigs, fabricate new parts, etc -- These are not details that can be truly
absorbed in one go! I wish I had the whole "Lloyd Keyser collection" :-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: NMRA convention (was Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit the mainstream)

Andy Harman
 

At 03:41 PM 5/17/2011 -0700, you wrote:
But the real problem is that the Convention is being held at the Sacramento
Convention Center and the contract with the facility prevents any
videotaping during the Convention except through the use of a private,
exclusive contractor which, as you know, you going to be very expensive.
Sounds like the NMRA needs to get away from these large venues. It's not like it's a rock concert for crying out loud. So literally they'll be searching bags for video cameras at the door?

Count me out.

Andy


Re: Rivets

naptownprr
 

From this I surmise that, once again, you get what you pay for.

Jim

Quoting Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>:

I emailed Woody of Archer because I have worked with him on several
projects and asked him if we wanted to say anything about the Micro
Mark product. He replied:

Dear Kurt,


Archer is a small, family owned and operated business that pioneered
the process of producing resin objects onto clear decal film in 2007
and we have been marketing these products continuously since then.
Our resin products are precise scale, researched and approved by
knowledgable modelers to meet their highest quality standards. Archer
will not compromise on quality and will continue to serve the
modeling community by expanding our selection of resin details on a
regular basis.


Archer's resin details are produced using a proprietary process. We
do not license our process to any other company or individual.
Archer's resin details are manufactured in our facility in the United
States and we must conform to strict government and environmental
regulations particularly those regarding the use and disposal of
hazardous materials. Our production costs are very high and this is
reflected in the price.


Archer fully understands that our level of dedication and quality may
exceed the needs of the casual modeler and respects the freedom of
all consumers to spend their money as they wish.


Archer is proud to be an innovator and participant in a free market
society and I hope my comments address your concerns.


Best wishes,


Woody Vondracek, owner
ARCHER FINE TRANSFERS

He also sent along a blow-up of one of the MM sets and it is exactly
as others have noted: Cleanly applied black ink patterns over what
appears to be more or less random gobs of a clear material. It would
be interesting if the fellow who was so impressed with the MM product
would show photos of the applied and painted "details", along with
his opinion of the results.

KL



Re: Multigenerational Search for Truth

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

Just a hint... I might have done it on purpose so as to AVOID the search
engine... as noted, this thread is a rehash of older threads and the
more we do this kind of thing, the more difficult it is for folks to
find the main, important thread while wading through all the chaff.
Note, I have altered the names below in your email to avoid hits on this
post... and suggest that perhaps you delete your post from the messages
so that it is not archived... since by putting the names in question in
it you have made sure it will be pulled up and yet it adds nothing to
the discussion. If you do that, I'll delete this one since it will not
longer be relevant ;^)

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn AL

"Tim O'Connor" <@timboconnor> 05/17/11 6:02 PM >>>
JP, consider:

Tony Thompson wrote "G-N"
Bruce Smith wrote "N-G"

And yet each of them was referring to the Gxxxxxx-Nxxxxx, or
Nxxxxx-Gxxxxxx
model of freight car distribution. Come to think of it, some of us
actually
use those names instead of shorthand.


Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Or if you have RMC from April 2011 , there is a photo of my model and Denny
Anspach's better model on page 99. Al Brown's model is on the next page.
The DT&I decals are well illustrated there.


SGL



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Douglas Harding
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 4:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals





Bill look for photos of the Cocoa Beach event, specifically photos of shake
& take models. Or search for the shake n take yahoo list, where you should
find photos, instructions and helpful advice.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org










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