mike brock wrote:

Yes, but doesn't it make sense to add PFE cars to the UP...and SP...numbers? Certainly such cars were extremely important to UP and SP and, of course, there is the ownership factor.

Depends a bit on what you're trying to show. In my bar chart (posted on my blog) I graphed PFE as a separate bar from SP and UP (and BTW a pretty respectable fleet all by itself). But if you want to reflect the PFE cars within SP and UP, how do you divide it? It was owned half and half, so you could split it down the middle. But SP originated two-thirds of the loads, so you could assign two-thirds of the cars to SP . . . starts getting complicated.
In terms of the car fleet which a modeler ought to have (other things being equal), I feel like the separate bar in the graph for PFE is a reasonable representation. And after all, it's a separate reporting mark.
If we're looking for bragging rights vs. other railroads, hey, let's add (some fraction of) the PFE cars to each railroad. But as I understood the prior topic, we were looking at railroad car fleets, especially box cars. The PFE cars are the reefer fleet of SP and UP, and as such seem to me to be a little separate.
And lest this seem like an arcane topic of interest only to UP and SP modelers, let me observe that you have a comparable issue with the IGN relative to MoPac, the PM relative to C&O, and even the T&NO relative to SP. Separate reporting marks, but commonality of car types and car usage--and all these subsidiary road car fleets were operated in tandem with the parent road. Whether you add them to the parent road fleet size depends on what you're trying to show.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Yes, the Navy did have box cars and at least one Helium car (for blimps I
think?). Will send to you direct in a separate email.



You find the car numbers and other info in any ORER. I will send a scan of
the October 1954 Navy info.



Allen Cain

Tony Thompson writes:

What's all this UP sensitivity? It's an interesting and in some
ways glamorous railroad, but stands around 14th or 15th in terms of
size of freight car fleet, as of the early 1950s.

Yes, but doesn't it make sense to add PFE cars to the UP...and SP...numbers? Certainly such cars were extremely important to UP and SP and, of course, there is the ownership factor.

Mike Brock

Richard Hendrickson notes:

Ben, as your boxcar compilation no doubt shows, this list changes
dramatically if coal hoppers are excluded. B&O, C&O, L&N, and N&W
move way down the list, Santa Fe, Milwaukee, and Southern Pacific
move way up. So for many of us (i.e., most of us who model railroads
west of the Mississippi) this list isn't very helpful and in fact may
give us a seriously distorted picture of the foreign road freight
cars we need to model.

Being one who models west of the Mississippi, I concor with Richard's point. However, for those modeling east of that river, hoppers play a significant role...even more than that in the Appalachian region running from Alabama into New England. If one models just about any RR in that area, one will need many N&W, WM, L&N, B&O, C&O, Pennsy, and even NYC hoppers. So, the rule for determining frt car population changes when one changes location.

Mike Brock

These are the decals for the last two shake and take Cocoa beach RPM kits.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
billdgoat@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 10:16 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals





I just saw in the MRH on-line mag that 5th Avenue was going to make decals
for the DT&I gon and the NADX Hormel reefer.
They don't list an e-mail or regular phone line on their site.
Can anybody provide one? Are these DT&I decals for an earlier Greenville
scheme earlier than the new offering from Walthers, to wit, the brown, nor
late '50s black scheme?
Thanks for any help.
Bill

Hmm ... it sounds as though one might define a "deep" fishbelly as being consistent with both definitions, and a "shallow" fishbelly as consistent with only the less restrictive one. Can that be expressed quantitatively?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

I just saw in the MRH on-line mag that 5th Avenue was going to make decals for the DT&I gon and the NADX Hormel reefer.
They don't list an e-mail or regular phone line on their site.
Can anybody provide one? Are these DT&I decals for an earlier Greenville scheme earlier than the new offering from Walthers, to wit, the brown, nor late '50s black scheme?
Thanks for any help.
Bill Williams

Hi Bill...

The report in the May edition of MRH said, and I quote... "5th Avenue Car
Shops, P.O. Box 423, LaGrange, IL 60525, has HO scale decals for the
Detroit Toledo & Ironton gondola and NADX-Hormel reefer projects presented at the
Cocoa Beach Shake-N-Take clinics. To order the decals send a check for
$12 to the above postal address. This is a one-time project and when sold
out, the decals will not be rerun."

That means if you want them, order them without delay.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Richard Bale, News Editor
Read Model Railroad Hobbyist magaZine, its always FREE at _mrhmag.com_
(http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)

On May 16, 2011, at 5:34 PM, soolinehistory wrote:

he Car Builder's Cyclopedia started life as the Car Builder's
Dictionary, with the express purpose of standardizing the
terminology. As such, I tend to use, and stand by, the definitions
it gives. Here is what the 1980 edition says, picked up, I'm sure,
from earlier editions:

"Fish-Belly Sill. A term used to describe a type of center sill
construction consisting of shallow sections at each end with
transitions to a deeper section at the center. Fish-belly sills are
often used on long cars which need heavier sections at the center."

Note it doesn't say how much deeper the section is, and I would
assume the intent that anything other than structural shapes that
pass through the bolster could be considered a "fish-belly sill" if
the section increases somewhere between the bolsters.

Thanks, Dennis. After my earlier post on this subject, I went
looking further and found in the 1953 CBCyc this shorter definition:
"Fish-belly sill. A type of heavy, deep, built up side or center
sill. Profile resembles that of a fish, hence the name." The use of
the word "heavy" here would seem to exclude a shallow fishbelly sill,
whereas the 1980 definition would include sills with a shallower
section between the bolsters."


Richard Hendrickson

I thought that ended five years ago:

http://mrr.trains.com/en/News%20and%20Reviews/MR%20Express/2006/11/MTH%20negotiates%20new%20Union%20Pacific%20licensing%20deal%20for%20all.aspx

KL

In my case it does. Walt

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Was there a formula or dimensions or some other basis that was used
to define what constituted a "fishbelly" underframe. I ask because
while the u/f of the USRA's 40-ton DS car was obviously this type of
underframe and is usually identified as such, other car designs, the
PRR's X23/R7 for example, had a centersill that was deeper at their
center portions but narrowed towards the bolsters. Sort a "trimmer"
fishbelly if you will. I have never noticed these cars as being
referred to as having a fishbelly u/f. An even trimmer example would
be the Bettendorf u/f profile.

I am mainly trying to understand how to more precisely apply the
term, or better, when not to apply the term "fishbelly?"
Bill Welch

Bill,

The Car Builder's Cyclopedia started life as the Car Builder's Dictionary, with the express purpose of standardizing the terminology. As such, I tend to use, and stand by, the definitions it gives. Here is what the 1980 edition says, picked up, I'm sure, from earlier editions:

"Fish-Belly Sill. A term used to describe a type of center sill construction consisting of shallow sections at each end with transitions to a deeper section at the center. Fish-belly sills are often used on long cars which need heavier sections at the center."

Note it doesn't say how much deeper the section is, and I would assume the intent that anything other than structural shapes that pass through the bolster could be considered a "fish-belly sill" if the section increases somewhere between the bolsters.

Dennis

Try this.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BigFourRoute/


On 5/16/11 7:49 PM, "water.kresse@comcast.net" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
wrote:

I could not find the "BigFour Route" Yahoo discussion group.  I found a
webpage.  Is it going to focus on BigFour history?  . . . . like when Malvin
Ingals ran both the Big Four and C&O railroads out of Cinncy around the turn
of the Century?

Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "davesnyder59" <davesnyder59@yahoo.com <mailto:davesnyder59%40yahoo.com>

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 6:31:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYCSHS New e-zine NYCentral Modeler

Godspeed Noel, don't think I be around then either.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Noel
Widdifield" <NYCBigFour@...> wrote:

Brian,
  We are not sure how much the membership will embrace the modeling, but if

they don't there won't be a Society in a few years.  The people who worked on
the NYC and occupy Board positions today will be gone in 10 ­ 20 years.  If
we can't get modelers interested, we will be gone.

  There are two Yahoo Groups where you can get info -  newyorkcentralsystem

& BigFour Route.  There will be a new one starting soon that will be of
interest NYC modelers.  It should be up and running in a week or so.

  Thanks, Noel

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Brian"

<cornbeltroute@> wrote:

. . . We will only be as successful if we have articles from

modelers.  -Noel <

Noel,

From a Midwesterner who is captivated by upstate New York and New

England topography and history, I (selfishly) wish you high success. I moved
on from the Boston & Albany (to the B&M and CV) as a modeling subject when I
discovered how difficult it is -- for me, anyway -- to dredge up NYC
information.

So, a question if I may: Do you have a membership that is now ready to

embrace modeling as a way to preserve NYC history? Or, are you and a few
others hoping to develop an interest in modeling that is, at the moment,
lacking?

A few years ago, I posted a question or two about the B&A at the

NYC-Railroad yahoo group and received zero responses. This, in combination
with finding little other B&A information online, motivated me to leave the
B&A behind.

(I have collected a large amount of B&A documentation from the Conrail

era, but my modeling focus is the 1950s. Which means the double-track B&A is
a problem for me. . . .)

BTW, is the NYC-Railroad the leading NYC information forum out there?

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I could not find the "BigFour Route" Yahoo discussion group.  I found a webpage.  Is it going to focus on BigFour history?  . . . . like when Malvin Ingals ran both the Big Four and C&O railroads out of Cinncy around the turn of the Century?



Al Kresse

On May 16, 2011, at 2:31 PM, Bill Welch wrote:

Was there a formula or dimensions or some other basis that was used
to define what constituted a "fishbelly" underframe. I ask because
while the u/f of the USRA's 40-ton DS car was obviously this type of
underframe and is usually identified as such, other car designs, the
PRR's X23/R7 for example, had a centersill that was deeper at their
center portions but narrowed towards the bolsters. Sort a "trimmer"
fishbelly if you will. I have never noticed these cars as being
referred to as having a fishbelly u/f. An even trimmer example would
be the Bettendorf u/f profile.

I am mainly trying to understand how to more precisely apply the
term, or better, when not to apply the term "fishbelly?"

Bill, I thought the Car Builders' Dictionaries/Cyclopedias might
provide some guidance and, in a way, they do. The 1922 issue does
not define "fish-belly," but uses the term several times in its
definition of "center sill." implying a deep built-up riveted
structure (e.g., the USRA 40 ton center sill). The 1931 issue has an
entry for "fish-belly sill" but, curiously, describes it only as to
applies to passenger cars. Again, it is defined as a deep
structure. So where does that leave the Bettendorf underframe, the
railroad-designed underframe on 1920s and '30s PFE cars, or the
Pennsy X23/R7 underframe? The CBCycs don't help, but my inclination
is to describe those as shallow fishbelly underframes, since they
definitely have a section between the bolsters that extends down
below the bolsters, but doesn't extend down very far.

Richard Hendrickson

Godspeed Noel, don't think I be around then either.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.

On 5/16/11 1:54 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On May 16, 2011, at 12:59 PM, kenneth broomfield wrote:

I am sure this has come up but can not find anything about it in
the archives. I
have a US Navy, made by Athern, boxcar and am wondering how correct
it is? Did
the Navy have any boxcars and if so does anyone have a picture of
one in
service? Did they have alot of them? I also have seen a Navy
flatcar on e-bay,
Mantua I think, and am wondering the same thing about it. Thank you
for any and
all support that I can get for this question.

Kenny Broomfield

The Navy had three large groups of 50' 1-1/2 door steel box cars for
ammunition loading, as well as a few flat cars, conventional tank
cars, and helium tank cars. See any steam era Official Railway
Equipment Register. No Athearn model is remotely close to any U. S.
Navy cars, and I doubt that the Mantua flat is at all accurate, either.

Richard Hendrickson

An image of what may be one of the cars Richard mentions has been
uploaded to the Photos area. Look in Rod Miller's photos.

Rod

--

Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives, | O Scale West / S West
Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More | 2012 Meet is Feb 9-11
http://www.rodmiller.com | http://www.oscalewest.com

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Rod Miller's Pics/DSCN3096.JPG
Uploaded by : howmanycats <rod@rodmiller.com>
Description : All steel 1 1/2 door boxcar. This car is parked on the Dumbarton Line behind a FEMA facility. Others can be seen on the right heading East near downtown Fallon, NV.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Rod%20Miller%27s%20Pics/DSCN3096.JPG

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

howmanycats <rod@rodmiller.com>

Hello Group,

Many years ago there was a small railroad museum known as the Kansas City Railroad Museum and tank car SRDX 410 was one of the pieces of equipment on display. I have uploaded three photos to a file in the photo section named SRDX Tank Car, that are presently awaiting approval.

I am presently looking into modeling this tank car and as I know next to nothing about the nitty-gritty of tank cars I have a number of basic questions...

Is there a commercial model that is similar enough to this car to be used as a starting point for construction of a model?

Is there a source for decals?

On the issue of painting/lettering, the photos show the car as delivered by the donor to the museum. I am modeling the 1953 time period so I question if the P/L shown in the photos is accurate for my chosen time period. Any suggestions or comments on this question?

Thank you, in advance, for any answers, information, and or suggestions.

Happy Modeling
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

I have uploaded a file Excel spreadsheet) I create a number of years ago which shows each road and cars owned by type for 1953. The data can be sorted by road name, total fleet size or number of cars by type.

Perhaps this will help. Assuming the file is approved.

file name 1953 cars in service

Rich Orr