Date   

Definition of a Fishbelly Underframe

Bill Welch
 

Was there a formula or dimensions or some other basis that was used
to define what constituted a "fishbelly" underframe. I ask because
while the u/f of the USRA's 40-ton DS car was obviously this type of
underframe and is usually identified as such, other car designs, the
PRR's X23/R7 for example, had a centersill that was deeper at their
center portions but narrowed towards the bolsters. Sort a "trimmer"
fishbelly if you will. I have never noticed these cars as being
referred to as having a fishbelly u/f. An even trimmer example would
be the Bettendorf u/f profile.

I am mainly trying to understand how to more precisely apply the
term, or better, when not to apply the term "fishbelly?"
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com


Re: US Navy freight cars.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 16, 2011, at 12:59 PM, kenneth broomfield wrote:

I am sure this has come up but can not find anything about it in
the archives. I
have a US Navy, made by Athern, boxcar and am wondering how correct
it is? Did
the Navy have any boxcars and if so does anyone have a picture of
one in
service? Did they have alot of them? I also have seen a Navy
flatcar on e-bay,
Mantua I think, and am wondering the same thing about it. Thank you
for any and
all support that I can get for this question.

Kenny Broomfield
The Navy had three large groups of 50' 1-1/2 door steel box cars for
ammunition loading, as well as a few flat cars, conventional tank
cars, and helium tank cars. See any steam era Official Railway
Equipment Register. No Athearn model is remotely close to any U. S.
Navy cars, and I doubt that the Mantua flat is at all accurate, either.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: NYCSHS New e-zine NYCentral Modeler

Noel Widdifield <NYCBigFour@...>
 

Brian,
We are not sure how much the membership will embrace the modeling, but if they don't there won't be a Society in a few years. The people who worked on the NYC and occupy Board positions today will be gone in 10 – 20 years. If we can't get modelers interested, we will be gone.
There are two Yahoo Groups where you can get info - newyorkcentralsystem & BigFour Route. There will be a new one starting soon that will be of interest NYC modelers. It should be up and running in a week or so.
Thanks, Noel

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <cornbeltroute@...> wrote:

. . . We will only be as successful if we have articles from modelers. -Noel <
Noel,

From a Midwesterner who is captivated by upstate New York and New England topography and history, I (selfishly) wish you high success. I moved on from the Boston & Albany (to the B&M and CV) as a modeling subject when I discovered how difficult it is -- for me, anyway -- to dredge up NYC information.

So, a question if I may: Do you have a membership that is now ready to embrace modeling as a way to preserve NYC history? Or, are you and a few others hoping to develop an interest in modeling that is, at the moment, lacking?

A few years ago, I posted a question or two about the B&A at the NYC-Railroad yahoo group and received zero responses. This, in combination with finding little other B&A information online, motivated me to leave the B&A behind.

(I have collected a large amount of B&A documentation from the Conrail era, but my modeling focus is the 1950s. Which means the double-track B&A is a problem for me. . . .)

BTW, is the NYC-Railroad the leading NYC information forum out there?

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950

Michael Aufderheide
 

Tony,
 
I agree with you, this is not a to do list, but a broader brush to see what cars are needed to convey a sense of time and place.   The difficulty comes when one sees a small road with post war AAR boxcars with a variety of doors, ends, roofs etc.  I'll only do one car, modelling it correctly, but the list that tells me that as a percentage a car with the general post war AAR charactoristics is needed.  This exercise is a mine field I know...... ;>}
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:32 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950


 
Mike Aufderheide wrote:
I can't speak to the NYC roofs, somone....? For the purposes of
this list I have not distinguished between types of roofs, doors,
ends or trucks.
Your list, by groups of car numbers, is fine for catching
missing cars. But as a modeling "to do" list, things like roofs and
ends are vital parts of how many models are needed. Doors and trucks
can be more readily changed, but roofs and ends, not so much. What I'd
like to see is your list, modified by additional facts such as which
parts are needed and how kit-bashable they might be, or if whole new
resin is needed. That way, modelers are encouraged to proceed on some
of these car needs.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Amarillo Railroad Museum Website

asychis@...
 

Hi guys,

Some of you might have noticed that our website recently became an absolute
mess. Tons of banners and pop-up ads, much of the data gone and no
shopping cart. Seems our provider decided to change terms without notifying us,
and since I work on the "other side" of the website, didn't see the
changes until someone wrote me about the problems. We are now up and running
again with no banner ads or pop-ups, a functional cart, and I am working to
get the original data (like Bill Stephens timebook records from teh Santa Fe
in the 1950s) back up and available. Sorry if this is off-topic, but this
site is a major way to get the word out about our offerings.

Thanks,

Jerry Michels


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:
I can't speak to the NYC roofs, somone....? For the purposes of this list I have not distinguished between types of roofs, doors, ends or trucks.
Your list, by groups of car numbers, is fine for catching missing cars. But as a modeling "to do" list, things like roofs and ends are vital parts of how many models are needed. Doors and trucks can be more readily changed, but roofs and ends, not so much. What I'd like to see is your list, modified by additional facts such as which parts are needed and how kit-bashable they might be, or if whole new resin is needed. That way, modelers are encouraged to proceed on some of these car needs.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Michael Aufderheide
 

Tony,
 
I can't speak to the NYC roofs, somone....?  For the purposes of this list I have not distinguished between types of roofs, doors, ends or trucks. 
 
Yes, I admit that 13th and 14th down the list is getting a little absurd.  The list is that long at all because the first 7(!) for PRR are X29s or and first 4 for NYC USRA steel cars.  All this is based on my desire to have 200 auto/box cars as the base number for my model fleet.  Another 100 or so cars will be added not on this list to account for region, industries, interchanging roads etc.  So in terms cars as a percentage of the US fleet I'll have 7 X29s!
 
Mike Aufderheide
One X29 down, six to go.

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)


 
Mike Aufderheide wrote:
FWIW, the following lists of the most numerous box/auto/vent cars
not modeled in resin or plastic: (1950 ORER #s)
Terrific list, Mike! A couple of comments:

CNW 60000 series USRA clone rebuild. 1,009 cars. 6th most numerous
house car on CNW.
MILW 597000 series, etc. ss raised roof auto car. 1,137 cars, 7th
most numerous house car on the MILW.
MP 42000 series etc. ss 10'-0" IH. 1,697 cars, 4th most numerous
house car on MP.
NYC 56400 series etc., steel, rebuilt of 1916 ds auto cars, 2,973
cars, 12th most numerous house car on NYC.
NYC 147000 series, steel, 40ft, 10ft doors, 9'-4" IH, 2,486 cars,
13th most numerous house car on NYC.
Um, I'm a little doubtful that car groups this far down the
list all need to be done--except of course for modelers of those roads.

PRR X38, 50ft steel, 14'-6" doors, 10'-8"IH. 2,299 cars, 14th most
numerous house car on PRR.
DIdn't these cars have two different roofs? If so, it's
misleading to lump them all together--and 14th most numerous doesn't
shout a "call of action" to me <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types

Bud Rindfleisch
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Widdifield" <NYCBigFour@...> wrote:

As a lurker on this group for some time I would like to say that there are many NYC modelers out here that are interested in a lot more than Dreyfus Hudsons.
As for the NYCSHS - stand by. We have formed a modeling committee and are starting up a series of actions that will greatly improved the Society's interest in modeling.
Watch for announcements soon.
Noel

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hom <b.hom@> wrote:

"marsfromrexford" (who didn't sign his name) wrote:
"I surprised you can't buy a 19000 series NYC caboose right now."

DesPlaines Hobbies has a laser cut wood body only kit for the 19000 series in S scale. Not sure if they also offer it in HO.
Bud Rindfleisch


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Larry Kline
 

The data for boxcars as of 12-31-1950 can be found in the Files section as a table of numbers and in the photos section as two bar charts for the top twenty owners and the next twenty owners. The table includes CN and CP. CN and CP were removed from the bar charts. Without CN and CP the top twenty boxcar owners own 76% of the US boxcar fleet.

I compared the North American boxcar fleet with the NMRA Charles collection and posted it in the Files section in August 2008. The data are as of 12-31-1950 from the Handbook of American Railroads They are presented as a table. The link is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Boxcar%20counts-Charles%20collection/

I compared the same 12-31-1950 US boxcar fleet data with the boxcars that can be identified in WM and P&WV train photos. Most of the photos are Bill Price WM photos from the early 1950s. The data are presented as bar charts showing percentages. The charts are in the photos section. I posted them several years ago. Jeff Aley moved them from the files section in August 2010. The link is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/748636150/pic/list

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


US Navy freight cars.

kenneth broomfield
 

I am sure this has come up but can not find anything about it in the archives. I
have a US Navy, made by Athern, boxcar and am wondering how correct it is? Did
the Navy have any boxcars and if so does anyone have a picture of one in
service? Did they have alot of them? I also have seen a Navy flatcar on e-bay,
Mantua I think, and am wondering the same thing about it. Thank you for any and
all support that I can get for this question.

Kenny Broomfield


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:
FWIW, the following lists of the most numerous box/auto/vent cars not modeled in resin or plastic: (1950 ORER #s)
Terrific list, Mike! A couple of comments:

CNW 60000 series USRA clone rebuild. 1,009 cars. 6th most numerous house car on CNW.
MILW 597000 series, etc. ss raised roof auto car. 1,137 cars, 7th most numerous house car on the MILW.
MP 42000 series etc. ss 10'-0" IH. 1,697 cars, 4th most numerous house car on MP.
NYC 56400 series etc., steel, rebuilt of 1916 ds auto cars, 2,973 cars, 12th most numerous house car on NYC.
NYC 147000 series, steel, 40ft, 10ft doors, 9'-4" IH, 2,486 cars, 13th most numerous house car on NYC.
Um, I'm a little doubtful that car groups this far down the list all need to be done--except of course for modelers of those roads.

PRR X38, 50ft steel, 14'-6" doors, 10'-8"IH. 2,299 cars, 14th most numerous house car on PRR.
DIdn't these cars have two different roofs? If so, it's misleading to lump them all together--and 14th most numerous doesn't shout a "call of action" to me <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Michael Aufderheide
 

All,
 
FWIW, the following lists of the most numerous box/auto/vent cars not modeled in resin or plastic: (1950 ORER #s)
 
 
ACL O16A, B, C 40ft rebuilt auto car. 2,500 cars, 3rd most numerous house car on ACL.
 
CO '23 ARA with the unusual side sheathing pattern. 1,924 cars 3rd most numerous house car on CO.
 
CNW 63000 & 74900 series rebuilt from auto cars, 1,486 cars. 4th most numerous house car on CNW.
 CNW 60000 series USRA clone rebuild. 1,009 cars. 6th most numerous house car on CNW.
 
ERIE  70000 series etc. '23 ARA 2,639 cars.  2nd most numerous house car on the ERIE (I have a question mark next to this entry.  I don't know the issue with these cars vs. X29; side sheathing pattern?)
 
MILW 597000 series, etc. ss raised roof auto car.  1,137 cars, 7th most numerous house car on the MILW. 
 
MP 42000 series etc. ss 10'-0" IH. 1,697 cars, 4th most numerous house car on MP.
 
NW B-5. 2,479 cars. 1st most numerous house car on NW.
 
NYC 56400 series etc., steel, rebuilt of 1916 ds auto cars, 2,973 cars, 12th most numerous house car on NYC.
 
NYC 147000 series, steel, 40ft, 10ft doors, 9'-4" IH, 2,486 cars, 13th most numerous house car on NYC.
 
PRR X38, 50ft steel, 14'-6" doors, 10'-8"IH. 2,299 cars, 14th most numerous house car on PRR.
 
UP B-50-17 180000 series rebuilt. 2282 cars, 4th most numerous house car on UP. Sunshine Models Private Stock kit with limited availability
 
WAB 17000 series,etc. 40' ss auto car with 12' door and 10'-3" & 4" IH.  1975 cars, 2nd most numerous house car on WAB.
 
 
This list got shorter by 2 cars this year with the introduction of the NCStL 36' rebuilds and the announcement of the SAL V9 vent. Any corrections or suggestions are very welcome.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide
 
PS: I haven't revised this list in light of the recent loss/postponement of Westerfield & Speedwitch kits, but the number of unavailable cars will double in length without them.
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Brian Carlson
 

I have this boxcar data for 1956 summarized also, I'll post tonight if it helps. I think it was in my Naperville handout also.
Brian Carlson

--- On Mon, 5/16/11, benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@att.net> wrote:


From: benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@att.net>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 16, 2011, 2:48 PM


 



Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Ben, as your boxcar compilation no doubt shows, this list changes
dramatically if coal hoppers are excluded. B&O, C&O, L&N, and N&W
move way down the list, Santa Fe, Milwaukee, and Southern Pacific
move way up. So for many of us (i.e., most of us who model railroads
west of the Mississippi) this list isn't very helpful and in fact may
give us a seriously distorted picture of the foreign road freight
cars we need to model."

Richard, just giving JP what he wanted. :)

Agree with you 100% - I've always believed that a better entering argument (reinforced by Tim Gilbert and Dave Nelson) was to look at the general service cars (XM, FM) as one of the bases for most likely foreign road cars.

Ben Hom


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Benjamin Hom
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Ben, as your boxcar compilation no doubt shows, this list changes
dramatically if coal hoppers are excluded. B&O, C&O, L&N, and N&W
move way down the list, Santa Fe, Milwaukee, and Southern Pacific
move way up. So for many of us (i.e., most of us who model railroads
west of the Mississippi) this list isn't very helpful and in fact may
give us a seriously distorted picture of the foreign road freight
cars we need to model."

Richard, just giving JP what he wanted. :)

Agree with you 100% - I've always believed that a better entering argument (reinforced by Tim Gilbert and Dave Nelson) was to look at the general service cars (XM, FM) as one of the bases for most likely foreign road cars.


Ben Hom


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Ben, as your boxcar compilation no doubt shows, this list changes dramatically if coal hoppers are excluded. B&O, C&O, L&N, and N&W move way down the list, Santa Fe, Milwaukee, and Southern Pacific move way up. So for many of us (i.e., most of us who model railroads west of the Mississippi) this list isn't very helpful and in fact may give us a seriously distorted picture of the foreign road freight cars we need to model.
Exactly. The chart i referenced from my blog DOES have the hopper, ore and ballast cars removed. Here's that link again:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2010/12/choosing-model-car-fleet-2.html

My data also are for 1950, as it happens, and they INCLUDE the subsidiaries, such as C&NW's Omaha Road and Mopac's IGN and others, unlike the Nehrich data.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


(No subject)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

JP Barger wrote:
Hi-- Tony Thompson's last message made me think that a 'pareto' list of the top twenty RR's total freight car ownership in 1950 would be most useful in thinking about what is under- and what is overrepresented in model form. Does someone have this data? Thanks in advance.
Yes, I published such a chart years ago, and have reproduced it in a post on my blog. Here's the link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2010/12/choosing-model-car-fleet-2.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charlie Vlk
 

Here is a reference to Pareto that JP mentioned......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution

The Pareto distribution, named after the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, is a power law probability distribution that coincides with social, scientific, geophysical, actuarial, and many other types of observable phenomena. This idea is sometimes expressed more simply as the Pareto principle or the "80-20 rule" which says that 20% of the population controls 80% of the wealth.[3

To apply it to underrespresented freight car models one would (should?) break down the cars by descrete types to come up with important missing models. I suspect that the "law" might be missapplied here as the 80/20 distribution is based on a common commodity split between multiple owners, not multiple commodities specific to an owner in a pool of different commodities.

Are we talking "mass production" models here or included limited run resin and brass models? Makes a big difference. For example, there are few RTR models of 50FT 1 1/2 Door box cars, which for some areas of the country were very commonly seen. Car distribution (some car types did not normally make it to all parts of the network) is going to make a difference, not just the total number of cars "in the fleet".

I don't think you can make the choice process into a formula, although it is fun to talk about such matters.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 16, 2011, at 11:00 AM, Benjamin Hom wrote:

Data compiled by John Nehrich from January 1949 ORER:

Railroads (22 - CN/CP included for comparison)
Pennsylvania - 214,799 revenue freight cars
New York Central - 129,369 cars
Baltimore & Ohio - 102,190 cars
Canadian National - 90,733 cars
Canadian Pacific - 82,397 cars
Chesapeake & Ohio - 80,881 cars
Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe - 78,904 cars
Louisville & Nashville - 68,319 cars
Norfolk & Western - 60,178 cars
Milwaukee Road - 57,475 cars
Illinois Central - 56,516 cars
Southern - 55,368 cars
Southern Pacific - 51,042 cars
Chicago Burlington & Quincy - 49,499 cars
Union Pacific - 46,608 cars
Chicago & North Western - 46,227 cars
Great Northern - 40,480 cars
Northern Pacific - 35,787 cars
Missouri Pacific - 35,022 cars
Reading - 32,032 cars
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific - 27,997 cars
St. Louis - San Francisco - 26,760 cars
Ben, as your boxcar compilation no doubt shows, this list changes
dramatically if coal hoppers are excluded. B&O, C&O, L&N, and N&W
move way down the list, Santa Fe, Milwaukee, and Southern Pacific
move way up. So for many of us (i.e., most of us who model railroads
west of the Mississippi) this list isn't very helpful and in fact may
give us a seriously distorted picture of the foreign road freight
cars we need to model.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
"I also compiled a comparison of boxcar fleets for January 1950 and
formatted it on a slide for my clinics - Brian Carlson used it last for
his presentation at the last Greensburg meet.  I'll post it to the
files section later tonight if it's not already there."

Turns out I posted it to the files section six(!) years ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/General%20Service%20Boxcars%20-%20July%201950.pdf

US roads only. PRR Class X29 and NYC USRA-design steel boxcar (all lots) included for comparison.


Ben Hom


Re: Freight Car numbers by road - 1950 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Bruce Smith
 

Elden,

I think JP wanted the top 20 Railroads, not the top 20 per railroad <VBG> , although that data would be even more useful, and it is certainly the approach that you, I and others have taken in persuading manufacturers to do specific PRR cars.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On May 16, 2011, at 12:51 PM, Gatwood, Elden SAW wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

JP;

You need a message title, so...

For the PRR, closest date I have - July 1949; TOP 20:

H21A, X29, GLA, GS, GLCA, X31A, X26, X25, G22, H21E, H25, G27, X28A, GR,
X26C, G25, X38, X29B, G29

BTW, this changes dramatically for 1955.....

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JP
Barger
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 1:39 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC]



Hi-- Tony Thompson's last message made me think that a 'pareto' list of the
top twenty RR's total freight car ownership in 1950 would be most useful in
thinking about what is under- and what is overrepresented in model form.
Does someone have this data? Thanks in advance.

JP Barger






Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




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