Date   

Re: Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach

Tim O'Connor
 

Quite a few vendors at Naperville who stayed in the hotel avoid the
table fees (which are not free) and sell from their rooms. (Bob's Photos
is probably the best known user of this technique.) Seems to me that if
people want to sell stuff (presumably for a profit) that the other
attendees should not have to subsidize them. But it's your show, so
you make the rules.

Tim O'Connor

There are perhaps some people that are unaware of the Prototype Rails/hotel
sleeping room/ball room/table arrangement. Let me explain. The cost to the
host meet committee [ me ]for the ball room [ where models are displayed and
various vendor/manufacturers set up ] is directly dependent on the number of
room nights that are sold during the week prior to the event through the
week following. During this period, the room rate is $99 per night. If you
wish to use a table either in the ball room or the hall way [ we usually
have photo dealers in the hall way ] [ and I would point out that those are
the only areas available ], tables are free...if you stay in the hotel. If
you choose to stay elsewhere, the cost of a table is $500 per day. As you
might guess, no one so far in the 11 previous yrs has elected to stay
elsewhere...if they planned to sell or display.

Mike Brock
Prototype Rails Boss


Re: Lackawanna freight yard Hoboken NJ

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi Schuyler,

I cannot bring up the photo. I have tried several ways to get it but each
way said web site not found.

Joel Holmes

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-08-11/Hoboken_Freight
_Yard.jpg

Schuyler







=======
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18860)
http://www.pctools.com/
=======


Re: Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach

Aley, Jeff A
 

Typo: tables for those not staying at the Hilton are $5,000 per day, not $500.

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, PR'12.


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brock
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:56 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach
Importance: High



Andy Carlson...apparently unaware of the Prototype Rails tables/hotel room
rates...writes:

Hi,
I have booked a room nearby the Cocoa Beach RPM. It is less than 1/3 the
price
of the Hilton. I have a car for going and returning. Anyone interested in
Sharing for 3 nights? Your cost is close to $19.00/night. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
There are perhaps some people that are unaware of the Prototype Rails/hotel
sleeping room/ball room/table arrangement. Let me explain. The cost to the
host meet committee [ me ]for the ball room [ where models are displayed and
various vendor/manufacturers set up ] is directly dependent on the number of
room nights that are sold during the week prior to the event through the
week following. During this period, the room rate is $99 per night. If you
wish to use a table either in the ball room or the hall way [ we usually
have photo dealers in the hall way ] [ and I would point out that those are
the only areas available ], tables are free...if you stay in the hotel. If
you choose to stay elsewhere, the cost of a table is $500 per day. As you
might guess, no one so far in the 11 previous yrs has elected to stay
elsewhere...if they planned to sell or display.

Mike Brock
Prototype Rails Boss


Lackawanna freight yard Hoboken NJ

Schuyler Larrabee
 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-08-11/Hoboken_Freight
_Yard.jpg

Schuyler







=======
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18860)
http://www.pctools.com/
=======


Re: Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Andy Carlson...apparently unaware of the Prototype Rails tables/hotel room rates...writes:

Hi,
I have booked a room nearby the Cocoa Beach RPM. It is less than 1/3 the price
of the Hilton. I have a car for going and returning. Anyone interested in
Sharing for 3 nights? Your cost is close to $19.00/night. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
There are perhaps some people that are unaware of the Prototype Rails/hotel sleeping room/ball room/table arrangement. Let me explain. The cost to the host meet committee [ me ]for the ball room [ where models are displayed and various vendor/manufacturers set up ] is directly dependent on the number of room nights that are sold during the week prior to the event through the week following. During this period, the room rate is $99 per night. If you wish to use a table either in the ball room or the hall way [ we usually have photo dealers in the hall way ] [ and I would point out that those are the only areas available ], tables are free...if you stay in the hotel. If you choose to stay elsewhere, the cost of a table is $500 per day. As you might guess, no one so far in the 11 previous yrs has elected to stay elsewhere...if they planned to sell or display.

Mike Brock
Prototype Rails Boss


Re: Buffalo and Susquehanna diagrams

Roland M. Brenninkmeyer <roland@...>
 

I cannot help you on the B&S drawings, but a couple of years ago I bought on
Ebay a set of BR&P car drawings. They are copies but were made a long time
ago. It sounds like this might be the ones you eluded to. If I can help
anyone on BR&P drawings or markings let me know off-line.



Regards, Roland


Re: Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach

Tim O'Connor
 

Ah, you musta found the Motel 6 on I-95! Been there, done that. :-)
I'd take you up on it, if gas didn't cost me $400 round trip to
Florida.

Tim O'

At 12/8/2011 09:55 PM Thursday, you wrote:
Hi,
I have booked a room nearby the Cocoa Beach RPM. It is less than 1/3 the price
of the Hilton. I have a car for going and returning. Anyone interested in
Sharing for 3 nights? Your cost is close to $19.00/night. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Cheap room to share in Cocoa Beach

Andy Carlson
 

Hi,
I have booked a room nearby the Cocoa Beach RPM. It is less than 1/3 the price
of the Hilton. I have a car for going and returning. Anyone interested in
Sharing for 3 nights? Your cost is close to $19.00/night. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: WM 31025 box car

Tim O'Connor
 

Ted Culotta (Speedwitch) made a model of a Central of Georgia car
of this type. There were other prewar cars too. But the WM car is
more interesting to me because it is a postwar car. YMMV. :-)

Tim O'Connor

Southern had several as well with 12'-0" doors. 1938 from Mt. Vernon, car
numbers 40000-40199. These were basicilly 1937 AAR cars streached out to
50' cars.
Fenton Wells


Re: WM 31025 box car

O Fenton Wells
 

Southern had several as well with 12'-0" doors. 1938 from Mt. Vernon, car
numbers 40000-40199. These were basicilly 1937 AAR cars streached out to
50' cars.
Fenton Wells
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Richard Hendrickson <
rhendrickson@opendoor.com> wrote:

**


On Dec 8, 2011, at 10:50 AM, pullmanboss wrote:

Somewhere in my stash there's an English Model Rail Supply (? - a
Bowser spinoff, IIRC) kit of a low-height 50' car. I bought it
because Richard did an article on converting that model into
something I thought I wanted. I remember it definitely involved a
new roof. Can anyone expand on that vague recollection to see if it
would be a starting point for this WM car?
Tom, I do remember writing such an article, but it was a long time
ago - probably in Model Railroading when Schleicher was still editor
- and I don't know the exact date, etc. Several RRs had 50' double
door box cars with 10'0" interior height, (e.g. SAL 10000 series,
though they had X29 style flat riveted roof and ands, like the SAL's
1937 versions of the 1932 ARA steel box car), but my recollection is
as vague as yours.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: mysterious SLSF 150256 box car

Bill Welch
 

Trying to be more precise in my statement. Over a span of years of quarterly editions, the ORER entrees for Fruit Growers Express and Western Fruit Express consistently had misleading information in the "Markings and Kind of Cars" column resulting possibly in erroneous conclusions. The misleading information perpetuated from edition to edition over the years.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "David" <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:
I strongly disagree with
Bill's comment that the errors are "frequently" found. That simply is
not my experience,
Part of it might be that once bad data did get in the entry, it tended to stay there until that line had to be revised for some other reason.

David Thompson


Buffalo and Susquehanna diagrams

Jim Mischke
 

Background:

When B&O took over another railroad, its better steel cars were given B&O class numbers,and B&O clearance diagrams were drawn up by the drafting department.

With money short in the Great Depression, B&O did not do such drafrting for the BR&P and B&S acquisitions. Those on distribution for blueprinted diagram books did without, or relied on much scarcer existing B&S and BR&P diagram books.

Evidently, a BR&P book survived. The late Howard N. Barr, Sr. copied his and sold the reproductions at local Baltimore swap meets decades aGO. Locally, for he never learned how to drive a car.



Question:

Does anyone have an original or copy of a Buffalo and Susquehanna freight car diaram book? Or any B&S freight car diagrams at all?


Re: WM 31025 box car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 8, 2011, at 10:50 AM, pullmanboss wrote:

Somewhere in my stash there's an English Model Rail Supply (? - a
Bowser spinoff, IIRC) kit of a low-height 50' car. I bought it
because Richard did an article on converting that model into
something I thought I wanted. I remember it definitely involved a
new roof. Can anyone expand on that vague recollection to see if it
would be a starting point for this WM car?
Tom, I do remember writing such an article, but it was a long time
ago - probably in Model Railroading when Schleicher was still editor
- and I don't know the exact date, etc. Several RRs had 50' double
door box cars with 10'0" interior height, (e.g. SAL 10000 series,
though they had X29 style flat riveted roof and ands, like the SAL's
1937 versions of the 1932 ARA steel box car), but my recollection is
as vague as yours.

Richard Hendrickson


Tight clearances on B&O, was, Re: B&O Circle T stencil

Jim Mischke
 

B&O wagontop construction was justified by cost, as well as constrained by clearances.

The Parkersburg subdivision was part of the Washington - St. Louis passenger route. National Limited, Diplomat, Metropolitan and the early Cincinnatian. Passenger cars cleared the tunnels, while various routine boxcars did not.

B&O dubbed its LCL service as Time-Saver in 1950. The circle T stencil dated from 1950.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Todd Horton <toddchorton@...> wrote:

I guess this explains why the B&O used the round roof construction, interesting to say the least.
 
Is it safe to assume that this was an all freight route then before the construction programs?  
 
When did they apply the "circle T" lettering ?  Todd Horton


________________________________
From: jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Tight clearances on B&O, was, Re: B&O Circle T stencil


 



The B&O Parkersburg subdivision (Grafton - Parkersburg) had 21 tunnels, most of which were constructed in the 1850's. Mark Twain travelled this route once and dubbed it a subway in the mountains.

Most of these tunnels were deepened, heightened, daylighted, replaced or bypassed in three construction programs during 1953, 1957, and 1963. Completion of the 1957 program allowed the 50' boxcars. The 1963 program allowed full piggyback.

Prior to those programs, offending high clearance cars were segregated at upstream yards and forwarded on High-Car specials on a somewhat parallel Parkersburg - New Martinsville - Grafton routing. Extra time, extra cost. Not good for a railroad with an intrinsically inferior route in the first place.

Yard clerks were well versed in what cars cleared and which did not. Their jobs depended on it.

Nominally, one could squeeze a lot of the forbidden boxcars through, but not at track speed. There has to be an allowance for rocking motion, especially so in curved tunnels. High boxcars were vulnerable at the roof eaves, such as lateral running board hand holds.

With their curved roof profile, B&O wagontops cleared these tunnels while maintaining a full interior height. By design intent.

The circel T stencil meant that such boxcars could go anywhere on B&O, the Parkersburg Sub was a limiting factor to be addressed.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Todd Horton <toddchorton@> wrote:

"50-foot cars did not fit the Parkersburg Subdivision clearances until the 1957 clearances program. After this time, some 50' boxcars did see the circle T as they left captive service, mainly automotive traffic"
 
Hmmm, That's interesting. What was the obstruction(s) on the Parkersburg sub that would exclude a 50' car?   Todd Horton

From: jim_mischke <jmischke@>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] B&O Circle T stencil, was Fox Valley (and ExactRail) B&O Wagontop


 

I would add some more detail to Bob Witt's post about the B&O circle T stencil.

Circle T meant fit for less-than-carload service, specifically:

- clean car

- mechanically sound

- meets main line clearances everywhere on B&O, including and especially the Parkersburg subdivision

B&O dubbed its LCL service "Time-Saver" service in 1950, so the circle T stencil does not predate 1950.

Certain car classes were excluded. M-15 wagontop subclasses lack this stencil per photos. Maybe a Duryea cushion underframe was fundamental to this lcl-ready status.

There were far more B&O boxcars stencilled with the circle T than actually engaged in Time-Saver LCL service. Kept clean and lcl-ready, all such boxcars could be brought into LCL service at any time as needed.

50-foot cars did not fit the Parkersburg Subdivision clearances until the 1957 clearances program. After this time, some 50' boxcars did see the circle T as they left captive service, mainly automotive traffic.

B&O LCL service did not survive the 1962 draconian cost cutting, so surviving circle T stencils were lettering leftover artifacts after 1962.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@> wrote:

Todd,

This was discussed in some earlier posts. Briefly, the photo evidence
indicates that most cars appear to have Youngstown doors after ~1955,
but there is a photo from 1952 of an M-53 already with a Youngstown
door. No memos have appeared in the B&O archives describing a planned
door replacement program for the M-53.

Trying not to confused the facts, but it appears from photo evidence
that the when the M-15 wagon-tops received new AAR underframes in ~1955
they also received new Youngstown doors. A speculative suggestion would
be that the use of replacements doors on the M-15 wagon-tops led to a
door replacement program for the class M-53.

The circle "T" indicates that the box car is suitable for l.c.l.
(less-than-car load) service, which was named "Time-Saver Service" on
the B&O. That usually indicated that the box car was suitable for class
A loads.

Bob Witt


Todd Horton wrote:

Does anyone know if (all of the cars had)Â and when the doors would
have been replaced? The Springs Mills site shows in service pics of cars
with Youngstown doors on all of them. One other minor detail, what's the
"circle T" designate? Todd Horton



________________________________
From: rwitt_2000 rwitt_2000@
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:27 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Fox Valley (and ExactRail) B&O Wagontop



Â

Andrew,

I just checked the Spring Mills Depot web site and they don't imply
their special run from Fox Valley is sold out. You can check with
them.

http://www.springmillsdepot.com/M53_status.htm

Also there is another run from Fox Valley due first quarter next year.
The B&OHS will have a special run of unique numbers so keep checking
that site as more details become available. http://borhs.org/

For an Exactrail, I would try to get a kit as I believe the door is a
separate part.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Andrew wrote:

Hi,

Like John Degnan, I model 1957. I have seen photos of my
modeling area (eastern Ontario) that indicate B&O M-53
boxcars were an occasional visitor--though not as common
as B&O open hoppers with soft coal for industrial customers.

Photos I've seen of M-53 boxcars in my area and time period
all have the Youngstown doors, not the Tatum doors.

I missed out on the Fox Valley run of M-53s earlier this year
but am interested in possibly getting one of the ExactRail
models. I notice ExactRail isn't offering a version with the
Youngstown doors.

Any guesses on the likelihood of ExactRail doing a future
run of these cars with Youngstown doors and later period
lettering schemes? Alternately, what would be a good
aftermarket Youngstown door to retrofit onto one of the
upcoming run of ExactRail models?

Regards,
Andrew

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" rwitt_2000@ wrote:

Tim,

I forgot to add that I observed a M-53, ~1960, in a long line of
bad
ordered B&O box cars in Caseyville, Illinois. It still had Tatum
doors
one, which was off its tracks was lying on the floor of the car. I
believe it was the first time I saw a XLT door. As you suggest, it
is
possible that some M-53s made it to the late 1950s still with
their
Tatum doors.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Tim O'Connor wrote:


Thanks Bob. Since my modeling -begins- with 1955 I'll be waiting
for
the cars with replacement doors... but maybe an XLT will slip in
there.


I have 6 photos and/or Xeroxes of photos of M-53 and 1 M-53A
all
still
with their Tatum "XLT" doors. Most are from the Anderson,
Barkan
and
King Collection. The re-weigh dates range from 12-45 to 3-55.
The
paint
schemes range from the early "13 Great States" to the late "13
Great
States" as described in the Barkan document. The re-weigh dates
from
the
1950s include 1950, 1951, 1952 (2), and 1953.

The last is a shop photo at Mt. Clare of a M-53 wearing the
brand
new
"Billboard scheme". It was common for the B&O to do samples at
their
"mother shop", Mt. Clare in Baltimore, before changes were
released
system wide.

Based upon photos its appears the doors were replaced beginning
in
the
mid-1950s.

Bob Witt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Re: mysterious SLSF 150256 box car

jerryglow2
 

Ed Hawkins told me Frisco bought replacement cars for wreckied ones and used the old number. Don't know if this is a case of that.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I'm mystified by this particular car because it is one of a tiny
handful of "all steel" cars in the series 150000-150999, yet all of
the cars in the "all steel" single door groups are listed in the Notes
sections of the 1950, 1955, 1959 and 1965 ORER's -- But 150256 is never
mentioned.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300632969040

Tim O'Connor


Re: mysterious SLSF 150256 box car

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

David Thompson wrote:
Part of it might be that once bad data did get in the entry, it tended to stay there until that line had to be revised for some other reason.
That's true if the railroad did not submit fresh copy for the following issue, which did happen a lot earlier in the 20th century. But my friend Steve Peery, who worked on ORER submissions for SP in the '60s, said a complete new entry was sent every time.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: WM 31025 box car

pullmanboss <tcmadden@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Thanks Ed! These would make very interesting models IMO. Maybe
you guys at Cocoa Beach could consider them in your roundtable? :-)
Somewhere in my stash there's an English Model Rail Supply (? - a Bowser spinoff, IIRC) kit of a low-height 50' car. I bought it because Richard did an article on converting that model into something I thought I wanted. I remember it definitely involved a new roof. Can anyone expand on that vague recollection to see if it would be a starting point for this WM car?

Tom Madden


Re: mysterious SLSF 150256 box car

David
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
I strongly disagree with
Bill's comment that the errors are "frequently" found. That simply is
not my experience,
Part of it might be that once bad data did get in the entry, it tended to stay there until that line had to be revised for some other reason.

David Thompson


Re: WM 31025 box car

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Ed! These would make very interesting models IMO. Maybe
you guys at Cocoa Beach could consider them in your roundtable? :-)

Tim O'Connor

This unusual 50 ft double door postwar box car appears in the ORER
between 1940 and 1950... It has 4/5 1937 AAR ends and 9'10" IH and
is stenciled "high and wide"! Anyone know when these were built?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290640327311

Tim O'Connor
Tim,

WM 31001-31050, 50 cars built May 1949 by Greenville Steel Car Co.
(office order number 518). In the photo the car to the right having 4/5
Dreadnaught ends was from a different series of cars. The ends on
31001-31050 were 3/4 Improved Dreadnaught with a narrow top stiffener
and the ever-present asymmetrical top major corrugation (flattened
bottom) when the narrow top stiffener is present.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: mysterious SLSF 150256 box car

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

I think Bill was only referring to that one column -- I checked
out some other car series for the SLSF, and it does appear that
the Frisco just didn't distinguish between all-steel rebuilds and
composite cars in several series. Tough luck for modelers! :-(

This is actually the first time I've run across this particular
omission. But in the future I'll be a little more cautious in
accepting what is in that column.

Tim O'

At 12/8/2011 12:43 PM Thursday, you wrote:
Bill Welch wrote:
Regarding "ORER-speak" the ORER frequently misspeaks or more
accurately misstates, mischaracterizes, or leaves out information in
the "Marking and Kind of Cars" column based on my analyzing multiple
Fruit Growers Express entrees. It is not hard to believe they would
do so in other entrees.
The ORER cannot "misspeak," as it only printed what railroads
submitted. If entries are wrong, they were sent in wrong by the
particular railroad. Given that the ORER had the status of a tariff
document, railroads certainly tried to be accurate, but of course
anyone who has spent time with ORER entries has found an occasional
error. But as I've said before, out of hundreds of thousands of
numerical entries, not very many are wrong. I strongly disagree with
Bill's comment that the errors are "frequently" found. That simply is
not my experience,

Tony Thompson

81241 - 81260 of 186227